Watford health campus: 'significant' allotment case will be heard before high court summer recess

Watford Observer: Watford health campus: 'significant' allotment case will be heard before high court summer recess Watford health campus: 'significant' allotment case will be heard before high court summer recess

The high court case over the fate of West Watford allotments will be heard before July after being designated as "significant".

Campaigners trying to save the Farm Terrace Allotments have been told their judicial review case will be heard before the summer recess at the Queen's Bench Division.

The case is challenging the Government’s decision to grant permission for the allotments to be built over as part of the health campus project.

Sara Jane Trebar, from the Farm Terrace Community Association, said: "It is full steam ahead. They have made it a significant case, so they are taking it seriously due to the wider implications as it is a test case."

This is the second time the association has launched a legal challenge against the decision by local government minister, Eric Pickles, to allow the allotments to be used in the health campus.

Mr Pickles reversed the initial permission he granted to Watford Borough Council, which he made in May, after the first challenge. However he granted permission for a second time in December.

The health campus project aims to redevelop the land behind Vicarage Road with new 700 new homes, new businesses, leisure areas, and space for new hospital facilities.

The council said it needs to use the allotment land, which was protected in previous versions of the scheme, to make the health campus financially viable.

Last week Watford’s elected mayor, Dorothy Thornhill, said work on the health campus was continuing despite the looming court battle.

Comments (22)

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1:46pm Thu 1 May 14

TRT says...

I think the key point now follows that, as Dotty has admitted they have decoupled the housing and commercial from the hospital elements of the development, then the requirement to build on the allotments is no longer contingent for the reconstruction of the hospital. That is to say that the overwhelming public benefit (a new hospital) is no longer an integral part of the scheme.
I think the key point now follows that, as Dotty has admitted they have decoupled the housing and commercial from the hospital elements of the development, then the requirement to build on the allotments is no longer contingent for the reconstruction of the hospital. That is to say that the overwhelming public benefit (a new hospital) is no longer an integral part of the scheme. TRT
  • Score: 3

1:59pm Thu 1 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

Well said.

Of course, a new Mayor in May could save the council the cost and trouble of going to court and do the right thing for the people of Watford by putting a stop to this dotty and quite possibly illegal scheme.

There is no hospital and Dorothy Thornhill should make that abundantly clear to the people of Watford because many are still under the impression that there will be a new hospital as part of the Health Campus.

Good luck in court SJT, you are doing a great job.
Well said. Of course, a new Mayor in May could save the council the cost and trouble of going to court and do the right thing for the people of Watford by putting a stop to this dotty and quite possibly illegal scheme. There is no hospital and Dorothy Thornhill should make that abundantly clear to the people of Watford because many are still under the impression that there will be a new hospital as part of the Health Campus. Good luck in court SJT, you are doing a great job. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: 0

2:14pm Thu 1 May 14

Cuetip says...

It would be interesting if we ended up with a couple of pre fabricated temporary buildings for the next couple of decades whilst deliberations continue on the merits of the promised brand new mega hospital in this congested location.
It would be interesting if we ended up with a couple of pre fabricated temporary buildings for the next couple of decades whilst deliberations continue on the merits of the promised brand new mega hospital in this congested location. Cuetip
  • Score: 2

2:21pm Thu 1 May 14

ramage1996 says...

Lets hope we get the hospital that the town needs and lets not elect a mayor who would consider moving the hospital to Hemel or St Albans..

http://m.watfordobse
rver.co.uk/news/1099
3032.UKIP_mayoral_ca
ndidate_outlines_key
_pledges/

"Mr Cox suggested that if elected he would look into whether having the main acute hospital in the "packed" West Watford area was best solution or if it should possibly move to a "more central location" to Watford, Hemel Hempstead and St Albans."
Lets hope we get the hospital that the town needs and lets not elect a mayor who would consider moving the hospital to Hemel or St Albans.. http://m.watfordobse rver.co.uk/news/1099 3032.UKIP_mayoral_ca ndidate_outlines_key _pledges/ "Mr Cox suggested that if elected he would look into whether having the main acute hospital in the "packed" West Watford area was best solution or if it should possibly move to a "more central location" to Watford, Hemel Hempstead and St Albans." ramage1996
  • Score: 3

2:41pm Thu 1 May 14

ancientandageing says...

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford wrote:
Well said.

Of course, a new Mayor in May could save the council the cost and trouble of going to court and do the right thing for the people of Watford by putting a stop to this dotty and quite possibly illegal scheme.

There is no hospital and Dorothy Thornhill should make that abundantly clear to the people of Watford because many are still under the impression that there will be a new hospital as part of the Health Campus.

Good luck in court SJT, you are doing a great job.
this is utter nonsense A new mayor is not omnipotent here, there is the small matter of the council majority remaining Libdem.
If however a new mayor was elected who had a sizable number of cllrs then the head being metaphorically severed they might be able to halt this. Look at the maths Labour may well have 10 or 11 at a stretch 12 cllrs.
Realistically a new mayor might be able to expose the fragility of the case and force the issue but not without a base on the council, In my opinion SJT will win, the council will be seen to have wasted 100K of our money and the prospect of this is leverage, but there is no absolute Mayoral authority to stop this scheme.
Please correct me if I am wrong but the new mayor will not be a local dictator able to scrap such a scheme at will!!!
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford[/bold] wrote: Well said. Of course, a new Mayor in May could save the council the cost and trouble of going to court and do the right thing for the people of Watford by putting a stop to this dotty and quite possibly illegal scheme. There is no hospital and Dorothy Thornhill should make that abundantly clear to the people of Watford because many are still under the impression that there will be a new hospital as part of the Health Campus. Good luck in court SJT, you are doing a great job.[/p][/quote]this is utter nonsense A new mayor is not omnipotent here, there is the small matter of the council majority remaining Libdem. If however a new mayor was elected who had a sizable number of cllrs then the head being metaphorically severed they might be able to halt this. Look at the maths Labour may well have 10 or 11 at a stretch 12 cllrs. Realistically a new mayor might be able to expose the fragility of the case and force the issue but not without a base on the council, In my opinion SJT will win, the council will be seen to have wasted 100K of our money and the prospect of this is leverage, but there is no absolute Mayoral authority to stop this scheme. Please correct me if I am wrong but the new mayor will not be a local dictator able to scrap such a scheme at will!!! ancientandageing
  • Score: 0

3:40pm Thu 1 May 14

ancientandageing says...

BTW @phil cox I am loving the irony of your stance here given part of the Farm terrace case is based on the Human rights Act
BTW @phil cox I am loving the irony of your stance here given part of the Farm terrace case is based on the Human rights Act ancientandageing
  • Score: 5

4:08pm Thu 1 May 14

Andrew1963 says...

If a new mayor selects a cabinet and they make a decision to change the planned release of land for building on, the only way it could be stopped would be to call it in by the full council. You run into tricky ground if people who have not recently been elected try to stop the policies of someone just elected. At the end of the day, the more important issue is planning permission and the outcome of the Judicial Review.
If a new mayor selects a cabinet and they make a decision to change the planned release of land for building on, the only way it could be stopped would be to call it in by the full council. You run into tricky ground if people who have not recently been elected try to stop the policies of someone just elected. At the end of the day, the more important issue is planning permission and the outcome of the Judicial Review. Andrew1963
  • Score: 6

4:23pm Thu 1 May 14

ancientandageing says...

Andrew1963 wrote:
If a new mayor selects a cabinet and they make a decision to change the planned release of land for building on, the only way it could be stopped would be to call it in by the full council. You run into tricky ground if people who have not recently been elected try to stop the policies of someone just elected. At the end of the day, the more important issue is planning permission and the outcome of the Judicial Review.
So if a new Mayor formed a cabinet of how many?
I am thinking at least 3
That would mean in order to change it and create the situation you describe the new Mayor would need 3 cllrs, Is that realistic for any other party than Labour
I think you are right on planing and judicial review, but who knows.
[quote][p][bold]Andrew1963[/bold] wrote: If a new mayor selects a cabinet and they make a decision to change the planned release of land for building on, the only way it could be stopped would be to call it in by the full council. You run into tricky ground if people who have not recently been elected try to stop the policies of someone just elected. At the end of the day, the more important issue is planning permission and the outcome of the Judicial Review.[/p][/quote]So if a new Mayor formed a cabinet of how many? I am thinking at least 3 That would mean in order to change it and create the situation you describe the new Mayor would need 3 cllrs, Is that realistic for any other party than Labour I think you are right on planing and judicial review, but who knows. ancientandageing
  • Score: -2

5:21pm Thu 1 May 14

ramage1996 says...

I watched on the news last night a major Ukip donor saying that rape within marriage is not rape..

To make it more worrying they put up Neil Hamilton to defend Ukip, someone found guilty of cash for questions..

Maybe they should have put the Ukip candidate who said Lenny Henry should go back to a 'black country' or the Ukip party chairman Godfrey Bloom who thinks balck people whould go back to 'bongo bongo' land and women are 's*uts'

yeeeeeeea phil vote ukip get ukip
I watched on the news last night a major Ukip donor saying that rape within marriage is not rape.. To make it more worrying they put up Neil Hamilton to defend Ukip, someone found guilty of cash for questions.. Maybe they should have put the Ukip candidate who said Lenny Henry should go back to a 'black country' or the Ukip party chairman Godfrey Bloom who thinks balck people whould go back to 'bongo bongo' land and women are 's*uts' yeeeeeeea phil vote ukip get ukip ramage1996
  • Score: -1

5:32pm Thu 1 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

ramage1996 wrote:
Lets hope we get the hospital that the town needs and lets not elect a mayor who would consider moving the hospital to Hemel or St Albans..

http://m.watfordobse

rver.co.uk/news/1099

3032.UKIP_mayoral_ca

ndidate_outlines_key

_pledges/

"Mr Cox suggested that if elected he would look into whether having the main acute hospital in the "packed" West Watford area was best solution or if it should possibly move to a "more central location" to Watford, Hemel Hempstead and St Albans."
None of the Mayoral candidates have suggested moving the hospital out of Watford.

I was misquoted and you know it, yet you continue to peddle this smear.

It says so much about you and your party.
[quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: Lets hope we get the hospital that the town needs and lets not elect a mayor who would consider moving the hospital to Hemel or St Albans.. http://m.watfordobse rver.co.uk/news/1099 3032.UKIP_mayoral_ca ndidate_outlines_key _pledges/ "Mr Cox suggested that if elected he would look into whether having the main acute hospital in the "packed" West Watford area was best solution or if it should possibly move to a "more central location" to Watford, Hemel Hempstead and St Albans."[/p][/quote]None of the Mayoral candidates have suggested moving the hospital out of Watford. I was misquoted and you know it, yet you continue to peddle this smear. It says so much about you and your party. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: 0

5:51pm Thu 1 May 14

Maceo & Fred says...

There is no new hospital, just a huge housing and retail development! Let's hope that the people of Watford get the message before the local elections because it has been misrepresented by our Council all along. The council is sacrificing two of "our green spaces" in part of Oxhey Park and Farm Terrace. If I were a resident who used a green space owned by the Council on behalf of its residents I would think twice before putting pen to paper on election day
There is no new hospital, just a huge housing and retail development! Let's hope that the people of Watford get the message before the local elections because it has been misrepresented by our Council all along. The council is sacrificing two of "our green spaces" in part of Oxhey Park and Farm Terrace. If I were a resident who used a green space owned by the Council on behalf of its residents I would think twice before putting pen to paper on election day Maceo & Fred
  • Score: -1

6:05pm Thu 1 May 14

ramage1996 says...

So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok ramage1996
  • Score: 2

6:44pm Thu 1 May 14

TRT says...

Maceo & Fred wrote:
There is no new hospital, just a huge housing and retail development! Let's hope that the people of Watford get the message before the local elections because it has been misrepresented by our Council all along. The council is sacrificing two of "our green spaces" in part of Oxhey Park and Farm Terrace. If I were a resident who used a green space owned by the Council on behalf of its residents I would think twice before putting pen to paper on election day
I would definitely be putting pen to paper, and making sure it was nowhere near the LibDem or Tory candidate box! Not voting is not effective.
[quote][p][bold]Maceo & Fred[/bold] wrote: There is no new hospital, just a huge housing and retail development! Let's hope that the people of Watford get the message before the local elections because it has been misrepresented by our Council all along. The council is sacrificing two of "our green spaces" in part of Oxhey Park and Farm Terrace. If I were a resident who used a green space owned by the Council on behalf of its residents I would think twice before putting pen to paper on election day[/p][/quote]I would definitely be putting pen to paper, and making sure it was nowhere near the LibDem or Tory candidate box! Not voting is not effective. TRT
  • Score: 3

6:48pm Thu 1 May 14

TRT says...

ramage1996 wrote:
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
You yourself posted the original!

Possibly moved to a location more central to Watford, Hemel and St. Albans.
Not _to_ those places but somewhere _in the middle_ of the three, somewhere easily accessible from the three major population centres it would serve rather than at the furthest edge of the largest.
[quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok[/p][/quote]You yourself posted the original! Possibly moved to a location more central to Watford, Hemel and St. Albans. Not _to_ those places but somewhere _in the middle_ of the three, somewhere easily accessible from the three major population centres it would serve rather than at the furthest edge of the largest. TRT
  • Score: 7

7:55pm Thu 1 May 14

Wacko Jacko says...

So Mr Cox is trying to wriggle out of statements he made about moving the hospital out of Watford. Looks like a blatant U-turn from UKIP. How can you trust a man who says one thing does a U-turn and then goes into denial when he's challenged. Watford deserves clear leadership not dithering. Don't waste a vote on UKIP, vote for a party with a chance of getting in and delivering policies you agree with.
So Mr Cox is trying to wriggle out of statements he made about moving the hospital out of Watford. Looks like a blatant U-turn from UKIP. How can you trust a man who says one thing does a U-turn and then goes into denial when he's challenged. Watford deserves clear leadership not dithering. Don't waste a vote on UKIP, vote for a party with a chance of getting in and delivering policies you agree with. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 1

9:36pm Thu 1 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

ramage1996 wrote:
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
What do you understand by a misquote?

The issue was clarified in a later article which you choose to ignore because it does not support your narrow viewpoint.

As I said, your actions say more about you and your party than they do about myself or UKIP.

UKIP are doing very nicely including here in Watford according to our research. You smears are not working.

Why not try something positive, like telling the truth? It might make people think your own party had decent people in it.
[quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok[/p][/quote]What do you understand by a misquote? The issue was clarified in a later article which you choose to ignore because it does not support your narrow viewpoint. As I said, your actions say more about you and your party than they do about myself or UKIP. UKIP are doing very nicely including here in Watford according to our research. You smears are not working. Why not try something positive, like telling the truth? It might make people think your own party had decent people in it. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: 0

9:46pm Thu 1 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
So Mr Cox is trying to wriggle out of statements he made about moving the hospital out of Watford. Looks like a blatant U-turn from UKIP. How can you trust a man who says one thing does a U-turn and then goes into denial when he's challenged. Watford deserves clear leadership not dithering. Don't waste a vote on UKIP, vote for a party with a chance of getting in and delivering policies you agree with.
You should be a comedian Wacko!

Did you hear Dithery Dorothy on 3 Counties last week, trying so desperately not to admit the Health Campus HAS NO HOSPITAL?

It was very amusing when the presenter did not let her get away with her fudging the issue. What was it he said to her?

Here is a little quote, as best I can recall

"Interviewer - Just to re-iterate then we do have to end it here, there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there is a plan for hospital facilities. Big difference isn't there?

Dorothy - The trust at the moment are in a difficult place as many of your listeners know (Interviewer - there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there's hospital facilities...)Doroth
y - and they don't actually have full plans but they have a will to keep their acute hospital on the Watford site and that's my will too.

Interviewer - I could have a will to have a new hospital, doesn't mean there is a plan for a hospital does it?

Dorothy - I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret.

Interviewer - Just very very quickly, the last thing is, there are no plans to build a hospital there. That is misleading isn't it to say the least?

Dorothy - No, what I can't say is speak for the trust and I won't do that and if you ask them they will say that the watford site is key to their plans for the future.

Dorothy was accused of misleading listeners. She even went on to say she couldn't speak for the trust and then in the same sentence did so.

Wriggle? Confused? Dithery? Misleading? Dorothy is an absolute expert. Slippery isn't the word!

I have not U-turned. I also have not tried to mislead the voters of Watford.

I think voters know who to trust and who not to trust. The evidence is there for all to see.
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: So Mr Cox is trying to wriggle out of statements he made about moving the hospital out of Watford. Looks like a blatant U-turn from UKIP. How can you trust a man who says one thing does a U-turn and then goes into denial when he's challenged. Watford deserves clear leadership not dithering. Don't waste a vote on UKIP, vote for a party with a chance of getting in and delivering policies you agree with.[/p][/quote]You should be a comedian Wacko! Did you hear Dithery Dorothy on 3 Counties last week, trying so desperately not to admit the Health Campus HAS NO HOSPITAL? It was very amusing when the presenter did not let her get away with her fudging the issue. What was it he said to her? Here is a little quote, as best I can recall "Interviewer - Just to re-iterate then we do have to end it here, there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there is a plan for hospital facilities. Big difference isn't there? Dorothy - The trust at the moment are in a difficult place as many of your listeners know (Interviewer - there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there's hospital facilities...)Doroth y - and they don't actually have full plans but they have a will to keep their acute hospital on the Watford site and that's my will too. Interviewer - I could have a will to have a new hospital, doesn't mean there is a plan for a hospital does it? Dorothy - I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret. Interviewer - Just very very quickly, the last thing is, there are no plans to build a hospital there. That is misleading isn't it to say the least? Dorothy - No, what I can't say is speak for the trust and I won't do that and if you ask them they will say that the watford site is key to their plans for the future. Dorothy was accused of misleading listeners. She even went on to say she couldn't speak for the trust and then in the same sentence did so. Wriggle? Confused? Dithery? Misleading? Dorothy is an absolute expert. Slippery isn't the word! I have not U-turned. I also have not tried to mislead the voters of Watford. I think voters know who to trust and who not to trust. The evidence is there for all to see. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: 0

11:51pm Thu 1 May 14

TRT says...

"Dorothy - I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret."

You mean like building all over the land at the back of the existing hospital, including selling off some land currently owned by the trust, so that should the trust decide in a year, or two years or three years, that they in fact can afford to build a complete new hospital, in one fell swoop without moving departments bit by bit in a kind of expensive soft shoe shuffle of a piece by piece rebuilding, that they no longer have that option because they have no space left to do that?

I'd call it short sighted, to be honest. And a false economy.
"Dorothy - I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret." You mean like building all over the land at the back of the existing hospital, including selling off some land currently owned by the trust, so that should the trust decide in a year, or two years or three years, that they in fact can afford to build a complete new hospital, in one fell swoop without moving departments bit by bit in a kind of expensive soft shoe shuffle of a piece by piece rebuilding, that they no longer have that option because they have no space left to do that? I'd call it short sighted, to be honest. And a false economy. TRT
  • Score: 2

7:25am Fri 2 May 14

ancientandageing says...

ramage1996 wrote:
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something.
[quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok[/p][/quote]am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something. ancientandageing
  • Score: 3

8:08am Fri 2 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

ancientandageing wrote:
ramage1996 wrote:
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something.
My position has been explained in detail several times, both in an article and in comments.

You have read those articles and comments and indeed commented on them. You have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts so the conclusion one must draw is that you are making it up to suit your own purposes.

This is just pure mischief from you, allegedly a Labour supporter. That you must resort to such underhand tactics demonstrates clearly how deeply worried you are about being beaten by UKIP.

May the best party win.
[quote][p][bold]ancientandageing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok[/p][/quote]am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something.[/p][/quote]My position has been explained in detail several times, both in an article and in comments. You have read those articles and comments and indeed commented on them. You have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts so the conclusion one must draw is that you are making it up to suit your own purposes. This is just pure mischief from you, allegedly a Labour supporter. That you must resort to such underhand tactics demonstrates clearly how deeply worried you are about being beaten by UKIP. May the best party win. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: -5

8:25am Fri 2 May 14

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford says...

As my last quote from the interview attracted some interest, here is the rest of it. I hope you find it interesting for those who missed it on the radio.

In particular I like the way the interviewer tried to get Dorothy to admit there was no new hospital as part of the Health Campus development, and the way she tried to avoid answering that question, even changing the subject to distance to the new allotments when she had so clearly been asked only about whether there would be a new hospital.

Classic political avoidance technique, the sort we hear from politicians so often and that we are so fed up with.

What's wrong with a straight answer to a straight question Dorothy?

Here is the interview, make your own mind up

--------------------
--------------------
--------------

(Interviewer)
Well we can speak now to the Mayoral candidates who are standing at the election next month.

We've got Dorothy Thornhill LibDem and current Mayor, Jagtar Singh Dhindsa who's Labour and Phil Cox from UKIP. We did also invite Linda Topping from the Conservatives but she didn't respond.

Jagtar, We'll start with you. Should the allotments go?

(Jagtar) No, the allotments shouldn't go and it's from start that we have been in favour of the development of the hospital but it's possible and viable to have both, and at the cabinet meeting in December 2012 the chair of the National Health Trust said that it is viable to build the hospital and keep the allotments. It's a very dense area of Watford, population wise it's most densely not just in Watford but in Hertfordshire and we have major problems with traffic, parking and there's no infrastructure to go with it.
My surgery, Doctors surgery, just in December had a notice there they won't be taking on any more patients, so there's no infrastructure in the area to go with it. There's lack of schools there as well.

Phil Cox from UKIP, you don't want the allotment to close either do you?

(Phil Cox) No, I don't. There's a very good reason. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with this development. It's called a health campus because originally we were promised a new hospital. That promise has now disappeared.
So It's really a development of housing and homes and businesses and shops with very little in terms of promises of hospital development.
Therefore it's not a case of having a hospital or having allotments, it's a case of do we want to keep allotments because they are protected by law, quite rightly and shouldn't be redeveloped for houses and homes, and that's exactly what the local council are proposing under the LibDems. So Jagtar is quite right, there is no need to lose these allotments. You could have a brand new shiny hospital, you could have homes as well and businesses and shops, and the allotments.
There is room for all

Well let's put that to Dorothy Thornhill, LibDem and current Mayor, Dorothy, you could have all those things and keep the allotments

(Dorothy Thornhill) Oh well we probably could in fantasy land or cloud cuckoo land.
I think what amazes me most is, I mean Mr Cox clearly has only come lately to the debate but Cllr Dhindsa has absolutely been in at the beginning and he quotes very judiciously from the cabinet meeting where the member from the hospital trust actually said it would be more difficult and more expensive without the allotments, they also said that they absolutely needed the ability to actually decant hospital facilities and to provide for long-term expansion.

And to actually say that you can have both means that the meetings that have been held about this, we do have a major projects board where Labour have a place, we have actually gone through the viability and our case to the secretary of state absolutely rests on the fundamental principle that if this is to be a proper development with schools, with doctors, with infrastructure we need the allotments to make it viable and indeed the very first piece of infrastructure is an access road to the hospital, which if the hospital had to pay for it they wouldn't be able to and it's critical to their plans and the development is actually paying for that road along with some money from the government

Jagtar I'll let you respond to that first

(Jagtar) Yeah, I mean, I have been involved in it for a long time, as I said before it is viable to do everything and this development of housing and flats is purely for profit making for the council and the Kier group
(Interviewer) and is that necessarily a bad thing for the council to be making profit, Jagtar (Dorothy Thornhill - Absolutely not)
It's not bad thing to make profit, what you got to look at the area where they are trying to make the profit as I said before it is the most developed area in Watford and Hertfordshire and it's not the right place and allotments are essential for the people in this area the gardens are so small in west watford people can't have allotments in their own gardens where in other areas of Watford the gardens are big they can have allotments and allotments are well-used. And the people who have been going there for over, allotments have been there for over 100 years

(Interviewer) Well Phil, Sorry Jagtar to interrupt, we are running out of time and I need to give you all equal measure
Phil, the allotmenteers have been told they can have an allotment just a mile away


(Phil Cox) No, it's not a mile away, it's over two miles away. But the fact is allotments can only be used for, or discarded if there's no call for the allotments. These allotments are well used in watford. The laws are there for a reason. It seems that the local council and indeed Eric Pickles in government don't actually believe in the laws that govern this land and they are very happy to see allotments built on.
The fact of the matter is this development could go ahead so easily and keep the allotments. It's a pure political will that Dorothy Thornhill wants to destroy these allotments probably because she thinks they are untidy and don't fit into her gleaming new plan for a housing estate. The hospital, there is no sign of a new hospital. Dorothy talks about hospital development, is she actually saying there's going to be a brand new hospital?

(Interviewer) Well, let's put that point to her. Dorothy, it's political will….is there going to be a brand new hospital?

(Dorothy Thornhill) Absolutely
because one thing as a Mayor you have to do is take tough decisions and show leadership. And you know my ambition for that part of town which is, you know, Cllr Dhindsa described it but this land is derelict land, this along with other improvements that are coming will actually, there are 30 hectares of derelict land ((Interviewer) so there's definitely, there's definitely…) in which in the corner of, there are actually some allotments

(Interviewer) So there is definitely, you're saying there is definitely plans to build a hospital and there will definitely be a hospital there if this goes ahead?

(Dorothy Thornhill) I have been absolutely reassured of the fact that there will be new and better hospital facilities. But Let's actually nail the distance, there are allotments within 200 metres. The reprovided allotments are 1.8 miles away. We have vacancies on all sites ((Interviewer) Dorothy, just to re-iterate) and they will be offered a compensation.

(Interviewer) Just to re-iterate then we do have to end it here, there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there is a plan for hospital facilities. Big difference isn't there?

(Dorothy Thornhill) The trust at the moment are in a difficult place as many of your listeners know ((Interviewer) there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there's hospital facilities...)and they don't actually have full plans but they have a real will to keep their acute hospital on the Watford site and that's my will too.

(Interviewer) I could have a will to have a new hospital, doesn't mean there is a plan for a hospital does it?

(Dorothy Thornhill) I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret.

(Interviewer) Just very very quickly, the last thing is, there are no plans to build a hospital there. That is misleading isn't it to say the least?

(Dorothy Thornhill) No, what I can't say is speak for the trust and I won't do that and if you ask them they will say that the Watford site is key to their plans for the future.

(Interviewer) Well we will speak to them. We have to end it there.
As my last quote from the interview attracted some interest, here is the rest of it. I hope you find it interesting for those who missed it on the radio. In particular I like the way the interviewer tried to get Dorothy to admit there was no new hospital as part of the Health Campus development, and the way she tried to avoid answering that question, even changing the subject to distance to the new allotments when she had so clearly been asked only about whether there would be a new hospital. Classic political avoidance technique, the sort we hear from politicians so often and that we are so fed up with. What's wrong with a straight answer to a straight question Dorothy? Here is the interview, make your own mind up -------------------- -------------------- -------------- (Interviewer) Well we can speak now to the Mayoral candidates who are standing at the election next month. We've got Dorothy Thornhill LibDem and current Mayor, Jagtar Singh Dhindsa who's Labour and Phil Cox from UKIP. We did also invite Linda Topping from the Conservatives but she didn't respond. Jagtar, We'll start with you. Should the allotments go? (Jagtar) No, the allotments shouldn't go and it's from start that we have been in favour of the development of the hospital but it's possible and viable to have both, and at the cabinet meeting in December 2012 the chair of the National Health Trust said that it is viable to build the hospital and keep the allotments. It's a very dense area of Watford, population wise it's most densely not just in Watford but in Hertfordshire and we have major problems with traffic, parking and there's no infrastructure to go with it. My surgery, Doctors surgery, just in December had a notice there they won't be taking on any more patients, so there's no infrastructure in the area to go with it. There's lack of schools there as well. Phil Cox from UKIP, you don't want the allotment to close either do you? (Phil Cox) No, I don't. There's a very good reason. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with this development. It's called a health campus because originally we were promised a new hospital. That promise has now disappeared. So It's really a development of housing and homes and businesses and shops with very little in terms of promises of hospital development. Therefore it's not a case of having a hospital or having allotments, it's a case of do we want to keep allotments because they are protected by law, quite rightly and shouldn't be redeveloped for houses and homes, and that's exactly what the local council are proposing under the LibDems. So Jagtar is quite right, there is no need to lose these allotments. You could have a brand new shiny hospital, you could have homes as well and businesses and shops, and the allotments. There is room for all Well let's put that to Dorothy Thornhill, LibDem and current Mayor, Dorothy, you could have all those things and keep the allotments (Dorothy Thornhill) Oh well we probably could in fantasy land or cloud cuckoo land. I think what amazes me most is, I mean Mr Cox clearly has only come lately to the debate but Cllr Dhindsa has absolutely been in at the beginning and he quotes very judiciously from the cabinet meeting where the member from the hospital trust actually said it would be more difficult and more expensive without the allotments, they also said that they absolutely needed the ability to actually decant hospital facilities and to provide for long-term expansion. And to actually say that you can have both means that the meetings that have been held about this, we do have a major projects board where Labour have a place, we have actually gone through the viability and our case to the secretary of state absolutely rests on the fundamental principle that if this is to be a proper development with schools, with doctors, with infrastructure we need the allotments to make it viable and indeed the very first piece of infrastructure is an access road to the hospital, which if the hospital had to pay for it they wouldn't be able to and it's critical to their plans and the development is actually paying for that road along with some money from the government Jagtar I'll let you respond to that first (Jagtar) Yeah, I mean, I have been involved in it for a long time, as I said before it is viable to do everything and this development of housing and flats is purely for profit making for the council and the Kier group (Interviewer) and is that necessarily a bad thing for the council to be making profit, Jagtar (Dorothy Thornhill - Absolutely not) It's not bad thing to make profit, what you got to look at the area where they are trying to make the profit as I said before it is the most developed area in Watford and Hertfordshire and it's not the right place and allotments are essential for the people in this area the gardens are so small in west watford people can't have allotments in their own gardens where in other areas of Watford the gardens are big they can have allotments and allotments are well-used. And the people who have been going there for over, allotments have been there for over 100 years (Interviewer) Well Phil, Sorry Jagtar to interrupt, we are running out of time and I need to give you all equal measure Phil, the allotmenteers have been told they can have an allotment just a mile away (Phil Cox) No, it's not a mile away, it's over two miles away. But the fact is allotments can only be used for, or discarded if there's no call for the allotments. These allotments are well used in watford. The laws are there for a reason. It seems that the local council and indeed Eric Pickles in government don't actually believe in the laws that govern this land and they are very happy to see allotments built on. The fact of the matter is this development could go ahead so easily and keep the allotments. It's a pure political will that Dorothy Thornhill wants to destroy these allotments probably because she thinks they are untidy and don't fit into her gleaming new plan for a housing estate. The hospital, there is no sign of a new hospital. Dorothy talks about hospital development, is she actually saying there's going to be a brand new hospital? (Interviewer) Well, let's put that point to her. Dorothy, it's political will….is there going to be a brand new hospital? (Dorothy Thornhill) Absolutely because one thing as a Mayor you have to do is take tough decisions and show leadership. And you know my ambition for that part of town which is, you know, Cllr Dhindsa described it but this land is derelict land, this along with other improvements that are coming will actually, there are 30 hectares of derelict land ((Interviewer) so there's definitely, there's definitely…) in which in the corner of, there are actually some allotments (Interviewer) So there is definitely, you're saying there is definitely plans to build a hospital and there will definitely be a hospital there if this goes ahead? (Dorothy Thornhill) I have been absolutely reassured of the fact that there will be new and better hospital facilities. But Let's actually nail the distance, there are allotments within 200 metres. The reprovided allotments are 1.8 miles away. We have vacancies on all sites ((Interviewer) Dorothy, just to re-iterate) and they will be offered a compensation. (Interviewer) Just to re-iterate then we do have to end it here, there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there is a plan for hospital facilities. Big difference isn't there? (Dorothy Thornhill) The trust at the moment are in a difficult place as many of your listeners know ((Interviewer) there isn't a plan for a new hospital, there's hospital facilities...)and they don't actually have full plans but they have a real will to keep their acute hospital on the Watford site and that's my will too. (Interviewer) I could have a will to have a new hospital, doesn't mean there is a plan for a hospital does it? (Dorothy Thornhill) I don't think that we make decisions now that will close the door in the face of the hospital that a Mayor in the future will regret. (Interviewer) Just very very quickly, the last thing is, there are no plans to build a hospital there. That is misleading isn't it to say the least? (Dorothy Thornhill) No, what I can't say is speak for the trust and I won't do that and if you ask them they will say that the Watford site is key to their plans for the future. (Interviewer) Well we will speak to them. We have to end it there. Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford
  • Score: 0

9:33am Fri 2 May 14

ancientandageing says...

Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford wrote:
ancientandageing wrote:
ramage1996 wrote:
So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans...

Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok
am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something.
My position has been explained in detail several times, both in an article and in comments.

You have read those articles and comments and indeed commented on them. You have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts so the conclusion one must draw is that you are making it up to suit your own purposes.

This is just pure mischief from you, allegedly a Labour supporter. That you must resort to such underhand tactics demonstrates clearly how deeply worried you are about being beaten by UKIP.

May the best party win.
but you guys actually did post in your own names that that is exactly what you wanted to do, never mind I am old and could be going dotty or as I said, you might of been possessed by evil spirits or hacked>
I went on your website recently and couldn't find the local manifesto, have you got a link for that please?
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox - UKIP Mayoral candidate for Watford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ancientandageing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ramage1996[/bold] wrote: So Phil Cox is now saying the journalists on the Watford Observer lied and made up quotes that he will consider moving the hospital out of Watford to Hemel or St Albans... Okay Phil, the journalist on this paper lied, it isn't you that is the liar then as the journalist just made up the story... ok[/p][/quote]am I going dotty but didn't phil Cox post exactly the same thing about outside of Watford on one of the stories here, maybe that was hacking, or demonic possession or something.[/p][/quote]My position has been explained in detail several times, both in an article and in comments. You have read those articles and comments and indeed commented on them. You have no excuse to be ignorant of the facts so the conclusion one must draw is that you are making it up to suit your own purposes. This is just pure mischief from you, allegedly a Labour supporter. That you must resort to such underhand tactics demonstrates clearly how deeply worried you are about being beaten by UKIP. May the best party win.[/p][/quote]but you guys actually did post in your own names that that is exactly what you wanted to do, never mind I am old and could be going dotty or as I said, you might of been possessed by evil spirits or hacked> I went on your website recently and couldn't find the local manifesto, have you got a link for that please? ancientandageing
  • Score: 1

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