The bearded Welsh windbag - aka Dr Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury - tells us we should recognise Islamic sharia law in Britain. Is this man totally mad, a prattling fool or, worse, a dangerous subversive with a highly political agenda?
Fortunately, his views have been met with almost universal condemnation, including even from many Muslims. However, one imagines that, sadly, he’s not going to go away and disappear quietly into the hole he’s dug for himself.
Surely he must have known the uproar and outrage his barmy opinions would cause? One can only believe, then, that he has provoked the debate deliberately - perhaps because he knows full well that the Church of England is increasingly an irrelevance in the lives of most people and he desperately needs something to get it noticed again!
It’s all very well for the pontificating prelate to stress he wasn’t proposing we introduce the more extreme aspects of sharia law, like the chopping off of criminals’ hands, stoning to death for adultery and the severe subjugation of women. However, he must know that there are extremist madmen amongst the Muslim community who would like nothing better, and by even raising the subject he has given them succour.
The very idea that we should contemplate allowing religious law to play any part in the formal laws of the land is grossly offensive to our democratic traditions, established over many centuries. We booted priests out from having legal control over people’s lives long ago and we don’t want imams and mullahs taking their place.
I want to see the bishops kicked out of the House of Lords and the Church of England disestablished from the state. Britain has had a secular government for centuries, with one set of laws under which all are equal - or supposed to be. The idea that Muslims should have their own laws, in parallel with and equal to the laws of the state, is grossly divisive and would lead to enormous resentment and unrest.
King James I used to be called the “wisest fool in Christendom”. Dr Rowan Williams is surely now the undisputed holder of the title! If he wants sharia law, why doesn’t he clear off and live in a country that has it? Nobody here would miss him.
Posted by: FED UP WITH ALL THESE TWXXTS at 5:00pm on Fri 8 Feb 08
If i go to a muslim country can i do what i want there and claim as a christain, the laws don't apply to me, as the teacher in the teddY bear saga PROVED, god heip us in this country, we are slowly being taken over, BRITAIN IS THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD, CAN YOU IMAGINE THIS FOOL IDEA BEING PLANNED IN AMERICA, FRANCE OR ANY SANE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, NO, BRITISH PEOPLE LETS PUT A STOP TO THESE CRACKPOTS LIKE THE IDIOT DR ROWAN WILLIAMS BEFORE IT IS TO LATE.
If i go to a muslim country can i do what i want there and claim as a christain, the laws don't apply to me, as the teacher in the teddY bear saga PROVED, god heip us in this country, we are slowly being taken over, BRITAIN IS THE LAUGHING STOCK OF THE WORLD, CAN YOU IMAGINE THIS FOOL IDEA BEING PLANNED IN AMERICA, FRANCE OR ANY SANE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, NO, BRITISH PEOPLE LETS PUT A STOP TO THESE CRACKPOTS LIKE THE IDIOT DR ROWAN WILLIAMS BEFORE IT IS TO LATE.
It's a storm in a teacup Roy. First you have to decide what you mean by 'sharia law' - and as many Muslims cannot agree, that renders the outrage of your average Grub St hack somewhat superfluous. Some limited forms of Sharia council already sit in England without any problem.
I concede the points you make in paragraph 3, however. Official recognition of sharia might encourage the reintroduction of canon law and consistory courts, which is not a pleasant prospect.
However (as I never tire of saying) booting out the Bishops and closing down parish churches would simply play into the hands of those who seek to overthrow Anglicanism with something even worse, and you wouldn't want that, would you?
Just out of interest, in which denomination were you baptised?
It's a storm in a teacup Roy. First you have to decide what you mean by 'sharia law' - and as many Muslims cannot agree, that renders the outrage of your average Grub St hack somewhat superfluous. Some limited forms of Sharia council already sit in England without any problem.
I concede the points you make in paragraph 3, however. Official recognition of sharia might encourage the reintroduction of canon law and consistory courts, which is not a pleasant prospect.
However (as I never tire of saying) booting out the Bishops and closing down parish churches would simply play into the hands of those who seek to overthrow Anglicanism with something even worse, and you wouldn't want that, would you?
Just out of interest, in which denomination were you baptised?
Posted by: Roy Stockdill at 6:57pm on Fri 8 Feb 08
Rob
I was never baptised into any denomination. When I was a lad I went to the local C of E Sunday School because there was a girl there I was interested in, but I also joined a Methodist Boy Scout troop because I wanted to go on midnight hikes, to weekend camps and to meet Girl Guides! I have never adhered to any religion and have been a firm opponent of them all since I was about 18.
Rob
I was never baptised into any denomination. When I was a lad I went to the local C of E Sunday School because there was a girl there I was interested in, but I also joined a Methodist Boy Scout troop because I wanted to go on midnight hikes, to weekend camps and to meet Girl Guides! I have never adhered to any religion and have been a firm opponent of them all since I was about 18.
Sounds as good a reason as any Roy! ;-)
With your anti-Bishop stance (which I share to some extent) I had you pidgeon-holed as a Yorkshire Methodist.
I'm a lapsed Anglican, though being something of a budding ecclesiastical historian, I can often be found wandering about in local churches with my camera.
Sounds as good a reason as any Roy! ;-)
With your anti-Bishop stance (which I share to some extent) I had you pidgeon-holed as a Yorkshire Methodist.
I'm a lapsed Anglican, though being something of a budding ecclesiastical historian, I can often be found wandering about in local churches with my camera.
To go back to your original point, Roy, one of the tenets of Sunni Islam (for Muslims living in a minority context)is to respect the law of the host country, and it is in those areas where sharia is seen as conforming to British law that sharia is practised.
Sounds boring, doesn't it!
To go back to your original point, Roy, one of the tenets of Sunni Islam (for Muslims living in a minority context)is to respect the law of the host country, and it is in those areas where sharia is seen as conforming to British law that sharia is practised.
Posted by: Roy Stockdill at 11:57pm on Fri 8 Feb 08
This, of course, is one of the problems of Islam. There are so many interpretations that no-one really seems to understand what to believe - just as with Christianity. Do you understand why I wish a plague on all their houses? We are talking here about simple, ignorant people who believe in some nonsensical book written many centuries ago - and I am talking about both the Bible and the Koran - because they have been brought up from birth to believe it and have no concept of actually questioning the beliefs and principles in it for themselves. They have no judgment or analysis or anything else, let alone intelligence, but simply believe because they have never been told any better.
I see, BTW, that the naive simpleton Rowan Williams is now desperately trying to back down from what he said and extricate the CofE from a massive own goal!
The day will come, I am quite sure, when we atheists and non-believers and secularists will make the simple people who believe in barmy religions see the error of their ways and they will ultimately understand that religion is a massive con-trick on mankind. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime, however.
This, of course, is one of the problems of Islam. There are so many interpretations that no-one really seems to understand what to believe - just as with Christianity. Do you understand why I wish a plague on all their houses? We are talking here about simple, ignorant people who believe in some nonsensical book written many centuries ago - and I am talking about both the Bible and the Koran - because they have been brought up from birth to believe it and have no concept of actually questioning the beliefs and principles in it for themselves. They have no judgment or analysis or anything else, let alone intelligence, but simply believe because they have never been told any better.
I see, BTW, that the naive simpleton Rowan Williams is now desperately trying to back down from what he said and extricate the CofE from a massive own goal!
The day will come, I am quite sure, when we atheists and non-believers and secularists will make the simple people who believe in barmy religions see the error of their ways and they will ultimately understand that religion is a massive con-trick on mankind. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime, however.
Posted by: Roy Stockdill at 12:16am on Sat 9 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Rob[/bold] wrote:
Sounds as good a reason as any Roy! ;-) With your anti-Bishop stance (which I share to some extent) I had you pidgeon-holed as a Yorkshire Methodist. I'm a lapsed Anglican, though being something of a budding ecclesiastical historian, I can often be found wandering about in local churches with my camera.[/quote] I share your interests, Rob, as a family historian and genealogist. I enjoy church architecture and, indeed, I am very glad my ancestors went to church because, otherwise, there would be very little record of them for me to find and to enable me to piece my ancestry and descendancy together. The baptismal, marriage and burial records are very valuable to someone like me. However, I am also extremely grateful that the state took over records from the churches in 1837 when civil registration of births, marriages and deaths was introduced into England and Wales (and later in Scotland and Ireland). This meant that the power of the church was removed forever over ordinary people and it illustrated the final triumph of the secular state.
Rob wrote:
Sounds as good a reason as any Roy! ;-) With your anti-Bishop stance (which I share to some extent) I had you pidgeon-holed as a Yorkshire Methodist. I'm a lapsed Anglican, though being something of a budding ecclesiastical historian, I can often be found wandering about in local churches with my camera.
I share your interests, Rob, as a family historian and genealogist. I enjoy church architecture and, indeed, I am very glad my ancestors went to church because, otherwise, there would be very little record of them for me to find and to enable me to piece my ancestry and descendancy together. The baptismal, marriage and burial records are very valuable to someone like me. However, I am also extremely grateful that the state took over records from the churches in 1837 when civil registration of births, marriages and deaths was introduced into England and Wales (and later in Scotland and Ireland). This meant that the power of the church was removed forever over ordinary people and it illustrated the final triumph of the secular state.
There is much truth in what you say. Religions are constantly reinventing themselves, and this is particularly true of Christianity and Islam. Furthermore, the [italic]Quran[/italic] , the [italic]Gospels[/italic] and [italic]Torah[/italic] all have what one might call a tenuous hold on archaeological and historical reality. However, the atheism you speak of is itself the product of the Christian West, and some people (myself included) would include it amongst the world's great religions.
The big problem that we in this country need to face up to is that the world is getting more religious - not less. The secularism and atheism of northern (largely Protestant) Europe is the exception. In that sense, Western Europe is being caught up in what some academics are referring to as a crisis of secularism. In other words, if we are going to sell secularism to the rest of the world we had better get our act together and tackle our embarrassing culture of "gun crime", anti-social behaviour, drunkenness and sexual incontinence. In that sense I have some sympathy with the more strident voices within Salafi Islam.
The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.
There is much truth in what you say. Religions are constantly reinventing themselves, and this is particularly true of Christianity and Islam. Furthermore, the Quran , the Gospels and Torah all have what one might call a tenuous hold on archaeological and historical reality. However, the atheism you speak of is itself the product of the Christian West, and some people (myself included) would include it amongst the world's great religions.
The big problem that we in this country need to face up to is that the world is getting more religious - not less. The secularism and atheism of northern (largely Protestant) Europe is the exception. In that sense, Western Europe is being caught up in what some academics are referring to as a crisis of secularism. In other words, if we are going to sell secularism to the rest of the world we had better get our act together and tackle our embarrassing culture of "gun crime", anti-social behaviour, drunkenness and sexual incontinence. In that sense I have some sympathy with the more strident voices within Salafi Islam.
The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.
Posted by: John Howard Norfolk at 9:15pm on Sat 9 Feb 08
Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. We may have no time for Dr Williams ideas on Sharia law in the UK but in fact we do already have some precedent for dual law in such matters as halal slaughter. Its just the implication that our common law built up over centuries may be eroded that seems distasteful. So while we may disagree with "beardy" lets not dismiss the entire Anglican Church. I for one am impressed by the feisty Archbishop of York so maybe he could take over from the "beardy windbag"?
Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. We may have no time for Dr Williams ideas on Sharia law in the UK but in fact we do already have some precedent for dual law in such matters as halal slaughter. Its just the implication that our common law built up over centuries may be eroded that seems distasteful. So while we may disagree with "beardy" lets not dismiss the entire Anglican Church. I for one am impressed by the feisty Archbishop of York so maybe he could take over from the "beardy windbag"?
Posted by: Roy Stockdill at 12:23am on Sun 10 Feb 08
Oddly enough, although I don't really have much time for any of them, I too am quite impressed with the Archbishop of York. Wouldn't it be somewhat amazing if a black African clergyman became head of the Church of England and booted out the wittering Welsh Windbag? That is something even I would almost cheer!
Oddly enough, although I don't really have much time for any of them, I too am quite impressed with the Archbishop of York. Wouldn't it be somewhat amazing if a black African clergyman became head of the Church of England and booted out the wittering Welsh Windbag? That is something even I would almost cheer!
John Sentamu argues that multiculturalism has betrayed the English, and that they should learn to stand up for themselves, which is true. I like him because he's very plain-speaking. I also like Michael Nasir-Ali. It's just Rowan Williams with whom I have a problem.
John Sentamu argues that multiculturalism has betrayed the English, and that they should learn to stand up for themselves, which is true. I like him because he's very plain-speaking. I also like Michael Nasir-Ali. It's just Rowan Williams with whom I have a problem.
Posted by: Madeleine Johnson at 1:33pm on Thu 14 Feb 08
[quote]The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.[/quote]
Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.
I resent the use of the word "Welsh" in a derogatory context.
The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.
Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.
I resent the use of the word "Welsh" in a derogatory context.
Posted by: Madeleine Johnson at 1:38pm on Thu 14 Feb 08
[quote]The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.[/quote]
Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.
I resent the use of the word "Welsh" in a derogatory context.
The C of E could make a start by ditching its wishy-washy narcissistic pentecostalism, and its feel-good congregationalism and go back to its roots. In theory, worshipping Anglicans are already in a minority, and their state monopoly is coveted jealously by the country's leading Roman Catholics (few of whom believe in religious equality, and many of whom seem to to bear nothing but enmity towards what they see as a 'heretic' Anglican church.
Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.
I resent the use of the word "Welsh" in a derogatory context.
[quote]Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.[/quote]
Hello Mel. I was merely reiterating what I pick up from Catholic columnists such as [bold]Cristina Odone[/bold] and [bold]Damian Thompson[/bold] . I was also pointing out that (despite what Roy thinks) disestablishment will not result in a more secular society, and the C of E would do well to ditch its links to the Charismatic movement and go back to its roots.
Easy, tiger, what did the Catholics do? I thought the issue was an Anglican Clergyman trying to represent a religious group (with the best of intentions) as he is duty-bound to do and lots of people taking offence and behaving as if Sharia Law was about to be implemented. Catholicism doesn't come into it.
Hello Mel. I was merely reiterating what I pick up from Catholic columnists such as Cristina Odone and Damian Thompson . I was also pointing out that (despite what Roy thinks) disestablishment will not result in a more secular society, and the C of E would do well to ditch its links to the Charismatic movement and go back to its roots.
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