Politicians oppose allotments decision (From Watford Observer)

600 flats!!!! Are they barmy? I think local people are unaware of the impact this will have. Come tomorrow evening to the town hall to protest. How dare they go against the council tax payers. They are public servants not the other way round. Wish we could vote dotty and the libs out.

"To question why alternative sites other than Farm Terrace were not explored and recommended?"

It's taken too long but finally the right question is being asked of the Liberals at the town hall.

Of course, with the Liberals in such control of the council they can still ignore this question and do whatever they like, but at least someone has finally asked the right question.

Of course, if the liberals do steamroller the opposition and the voters again and go ahead, come the next election we can fairly ask "Why did the liberals on the council not listen to reason and explore the sensible option of offsetting land elsewhere to keep the allotments?" Their answer of course will diminish them in the eyes of the electorate and help to reduce their stranglehold on the local council.

Seeing Dotty in action last time I don't see that she or her team are the listening type. I hope she proves me wrong, but please dotty, no more crocodile tears and wishing you could save the allotments. If you want to save them, save them, it's really easy to do so, and if you don't want to save them at least have the decency to say so to our faces.

MaryShabti1 wrote:
600 flats!!!! Are they barmy? I think local people are unaware of the impact this will have. Come tomorrow evening to the town hall to protest. How dare they go against the council tax payers. They are public servants not the other way round. Wish we could vote dotty and the libs out.

It doesn't say flats. The overall site is large - large enough to fit in a new hospital, employment space for businesses to employ 1,600 new jobs, 600 HOMES, more open green space etc

And there is no evidence that they are 'going against council tax payers', Persoanlly, I suspect the vast majority of people will want new hospoital facilities and new jobs etc - residents and hospital staff alike

Mike Watford wrote:

MaryShabti1 wrote:
600 flats!!!! Are they barmy? I think local people are unaware of the impact this will have. Come tomorrow evening to the town hall to protest. How dare they go against the council tax payers. They are public servants not the other way round. Wish we could vote dotty and the libs out.

It doesn't say flats. The overall site is large - large enough to fit in a new hospital, employment space for businesses to employ 1,600 new jobs, 600 HOMES, more open green space etc

And there is no evidence that they are 'going against council tax payers', Persoanlly, I suspect the vast majority of people will want new hospoital facilities and new jobs etc - residents and hospital staff alike

What are the 1600 new jobs? Are they permanent full-time jobs?

What is this statement based on?

They have a website where you can download their master plan documents which show the style of housing they hope to include and the proposed access routes. It looks nice on the surface, but it's actually a disaster zone. The ambulance bay & A&E is on the side furthest from the access roads, there are traffic conflict points all over the show, especially on the blue-light routes, and the campus is expected to replace Hemel and St. Albans services (but not Harefield, Mount Vernon etc), yet in order to get their you have to pass through the congested roads around Watford. The slightest disruption to traffic at Waterfields / Bushey Arches, and you'll get two-lane tailbacks to the M1 up Stephenson Way. Yes, and I'm including the proposed Waitrose development in that, a huge unknown already raising traffic concerns. There will be no relief road for West Watford, and no new way through from Deacon's Hill / Wiggenhall Road to Vicarage Road. As for the rail access the CRL would provide, who would need it from the west side, when they have other hospitals? OK, CRL will open access from the east, but there's no through service from St. Albans or Hemel is there?

They would be far better off considering locations like Smug Oak, Winch Hill Wood, Langleybury, Long Wood/Round Wood behind Abbots Langley, or between the A41 and A4251 at King's Langley. If they want brownfield sites, there are plenty of grubby industrial units around King's Langley which could do with regeneration.

I agree Mike. I actually signed the petition to save the allotments but that was before I knew the bigger picture.

TRT wrote:
They have a website where you can download their master plan documents which show the style of housing they hope to include and the proposed access routes. It looks nice on the surface, but it's actually a disaster zone. The ambulance bay & A&E is on the side furthest from the access roads, there are traffic conflict points all over the show, especially on the blue-light routes, and the campus is expected to replace Hemel and St. Albans services (but not Harefield, Mount Vernon etc), yet in order to get their you have to pass through the congested roads around Watford. The slightest disruption to traffic at Waterfields / Bushey Arches, and you'll get two-lane tailbacks to the M1 up Stephenson Way. Yes, and I'm including the proposed Waitrose development in that, a huge unknown already raising traffic concerns. There will be no relief road for West Watford, and no new way through from Deacon's Hill / Wiggenhall Road to Vicarage Road. As for the rail access the CRL would provide, who would need it from the west side, when they have other hospitals? OK, CRL will open access from the east, but there's no through service from St. Albans or Hemel is there?

They would be far better off considering locations like Smug Oak, Winch Hill Wood, Langleybury, Long Wood/Round Wood behind Abbots Langley, or between the A41 and A4251 at King's Langley. If they want brownfield sites, there are plenty of grubby industrial units around King's Langley which could do with regeneration.

I agree with you. The more I hear, the more I am sure the location is wrong for a superhospital.

The Liberals are making a huge mistake. Just because it could be there, doesn't mean it should be there.

The health Campus may or may not go ahead anyway. And leaving alone the question of the extra 'housing' in an already over developed West watford. It is ludicrous of Mayor thornhill to scrap the allotments because basically she doesnt think they are pretty enough... and replace them with bland green spaces which are not really useable other than to look at and walk dogs on.. When there is already a usable, community space there which is full of wild life and which she could 'regenerate' with a bit of foresight and compassion!!

sjtrebar wrote:
The health Campus may or may not go ahead anyway. And leaving alone the question of the extra 'housing' in an already over developed West watford. It is ludicrous of Mayor thornhill to scrap the allotments because basically she doesnt think they are pretty enough... and replace them with bland green spaces which are not really useable other than to look at and walk dogs on.. When there is already a usable, community space there which is full of wild life and which she could 'regenerate' with a bit of foresight and compassion!!

"The health campus may or may not go ahead anyway"

Not including allotment land pretty much ensures it won't go ahead.

The council wants to sell the allotments so that the developers can build new homes, shops, offices, etc.
The developers say they need the income from these homes, etc, in order to fund the health campus.
POINT - The new homes do not have to be built on the same site as the health campus. The houses can be built elsewhere and the income generated can still be utilised for the hospital.
So ... SAVE THE ALLOTMENTS, build new homes on a different site and still fund the health campus.

I can't understand what the fuss is all about. here in West Watford we need modern good quality affordable housing, we need more local jobs and we need better public transport. The Health Campus will provide all of these. The hospital also desperately needs to modernise to meet increasing demands and I for one don't want it move anywhere, I want to have first class medical care conveniently placed on my doorstep. What people don't seem to understand is that the allotments won't be lost, just relocated and given better facilities. And on top of this there will be a community garden on the site for those who want to cultivate the land together. Credit where it's due the Liberals don't have much support in West Watford, but are pushing this through for the good of everyone and in the teeth of strong opposition from self interested allotment holders aided and abetted by short sighted Labour councillors, who would be supporting this development themselves if only they had thought of it first. Next time round I'll be voting Liberal, not Labour

Hmm... I bet there are many people in St Albans, Hemel, North Watford etc. who would also love to have first class medical care on their doorstep. As it stands, their "door step hospital" is going by-the-by.

Surely it is much easier to build anew on a better site without partial closures and staged migrations of medical services etc. Cheaper by a country mile, surely?!

Tara1978 wrote:

sjtrebar wrote:
The health Campus may or may not go ahead anyway. And leaving alone the question of the extra 'housing' in an already over developed West watford. It is ludicrous of Mayor thornhill to scrap the allotments because basically she doesnt think they are pretty enough... and replace them with bland green spaces which are not really useable other than to look at and walk dogs on.. When there is already a usable, community space there which is full of wild life and which she could 'regenerate' with a bit of foresight and compassion!!

"The health campus may or may not go ahead anyway"

Not including allotment land pretty much ensures it won't go ahead.

It has been clearly reported that the proposed development, WITHOUT the allotment land, is still profitable.

Your comment is therefore wrong.

Harry Bee wrote:
The council wants to sell the allotments so that the developers can build new homes, shops, offices, etc.
The developers say they need the income from these homes, etc, in order to fund the health campus.
POINT - The new homes do not have to be built on the same site as the health campus. The houses can be built elsewhere and the income generated can still be utilised for the hospital.
So ... SAVE THE ALLOTMENTS, build new homes on a different site and still fund the health campus.

Harry Bee,

You know that, I know that, and even Dorothy Thornhill knows that.

You want that, I want that, Dorothy, what do you want?

...but the 70 allotment holders (on council land) are being offered alternative plots. Plus its been agreed that the council will make a £800,000 investment in allotments across the borough.
(...wish I could have some of that for my garden in west watford!!)

I really wish you would cite your sources, Mike. What you've just said is that not only are the developers getting a sweetener by being handed the allotments but that the council tax payer is coughing up £0.8m to buy off the allotment holders? That's £9 for every man, woman and child in the Borough!

Or £22 on every council tax bill.

How much extra profit will the allotments generate to Keir?

How much will it cost the council to include the allotments?

Is it actually really worth it? I know dotty doesn't want to keep them come hell or high water, that much is obvious, but is it actually really worth it in monetary terms?

Re: £0.8m allotment investment plan. from the WBC news announcement 10th December 2012. This is an agreement to fast-track their existing allotment improvement plan, not an additional spend on allotments.

http://www.watford.g
ov.uk/ccm/content/st
rategic-services/pre
ss-releases/2012-12/
important-step-for-h
ealth-campus-develop
ment.en;jsessionid=6
B4EF0F1D63226AFEF5A4
167069E3196

Watford Observer. PLEASE SORT OUT THE ABILITY TO INCLUDE HYPERLINKS IN COMMENTS.

Thank you.

Allotment improvement plan. That's a laugh considering Farm Terrace and what they want to do to it.

Does it by any chance say

"build houses on the allotments in densely populated areas where land is more valuable and offer plots miles away that no-one will want so we can then say there is little or no demand for allotments?"

Thornhills arrogance is staggering.

You can google Allotments Framework and Strategy Update and find an agenda item from June 2012. Basically it says the plan is that they need a new plan. I'm not joking.

Don't forget tonight - join the protest at the town hall 7pm. I have lived in the square since 1980 and West Watford has become hugely overpopulated. Before anyone says you knew what it was like when u moved in I must say now that at that time the football ground was wooden fenced and the hospital was a mental unit and maternity. The main hospital was the Peace. Despite living opposite the hospital I still have to go to the avenue clinic by the town hall and St. Albans. Never over the road to the General!!!!! So much for this being a boon to locals. The traffic in vicarage road is hellish and often gridlocked. It is an ill conceived vanity project. Perhaps dotty would like a major football ground and hospital in her road plus 600 units hmm thought not.

TRT wrote:
You can google Allotments Framework and Strategy Update and find an agenda item from June 2012. Basically it says the plan is that they need a new plan. I'm not joking.

I think that can be said for a lot of what the council are planning.

They need a new plan alright, one that listens to the people of Watford.

It's quite shocking the way they ride roughshod over the residents of Watford.

Not just 600, an EXTRA 600.

This will officially make Vicarage Ward the most densely populated ward in Hertfordshire, even though it includes all the industrial units and waste ground as far as the Colne!

Mike Watford wrote:
...but the 70 allotment holders (on council land) are being offered alternative plots. Plus its been agreed that the council will make a £800,000 investment in allotments across the borough.
(...wish I could have some of that for my garden in west watford!!)

So, Mike, how would you feel if your lovingly-tended garden was taken from you to let developers build a high rise apartment block? And would you be happy to be offered an alternative garden 1.2 miles away? I guess it would be fine and dandy as long as dotty Dotty invested some money into your new garden plot.

Yes, I know allotment land is council owned. And yes, I know you think I am making a silly, extreme point. But do you understand? Will people like you ever understand?

Mike Watford wrote:
...but the 70 allotment holders (on council land) are being offered alternative plots. Plus its been agreed that the council will make a £800,000 investment in allotments across the borough.
(...wish I could have some of that for my garden in west watford!!)

So, Mike, how would you feel if your lovingly-tended garden was taken from you to let developers build a high rise apartment block? And would you be happy to be offered an alternative garden 1.2 miles away? I guess it would be fine and dandy as long as dotty Dotty invested some money into your new garden plot.

Yes, I know allotment land is council owned. And yes, I know you think I am making a silly, extreme point. But do you understand? Will people like you ever understand?

Mike Watford wrote:
...but the 70 allotment holders (on council land) are being offered alternative plots. Plus its been agreed that the council will make a £800,000 investment in allotments across the borough.
(...wish I could have some of that for my garden in west watford!!)

Mike doesn't get the point. The reason there has been a higher proportion of allotments in West Watford to the rest of the Borough is precisely as Mike has said - the size of the gardens. If he hadn't noticed nearly all the housing is terraced (built around 1900 to 1920) and from this the allotments naturally sprung up because of the lack of space. Many of the streets around West Watford had allotments on them (if you look along Brightwell Road over 1/3 of the road are 1970 builds that were originally allotments and replaced with housing). Therefore the allotments sit hand in hand with the housing because of the way West Watford developed at the turn of the 19th century so the demand and requirement for allotments was the same then, is now and will still be in the future. By proposing to relocate the allotments you are moving them out of there natural catchment area to the edge of Oxhey so demand will eventually drop, they will become disused, the Council will say demand has dropped, they will close the relocated site and allotments in the Borough will reduce further.

Mike sounds like a Liberal activist so it's worth taking his contributions with a pinch of salt. I have seen him in the past popping up on this site to support the Liberals in council. I wouldn't be surprised if they patrol these sites to give the ruling council's sugar-coated view when all else are against them.

The simple fact is the council could save the allotments, quite easily. They simply don't want to. By council, I mean dotty Dotty and the other liberals who hold the majority of seats on this council.

MarsLander wrote:
Mike sounds like a Liberal activist so it's worth taking his contributions with a pinch of salt. I have seen him in the past popping up on this site to support the Liberals in council. I wouldn't be surprised if they patrol these sites to give the ruling council's sugar-coated view when all else are against them.

The simple fact is the council could save the allotments, quite easily. They simply don't want to. By council, I mean dotty Dotty and the other liberals who hold the majority of seats on this council.

hear hear MarsLander

Maceo & Fred wrote:

Mike Watford wrote:
...but the 70 allotment holders (on council land) are being offered alternative plots. Plus its been agreed that the council will make a £800,000 investment in allotments across the borough.
(...wish I could have some of that for my garden in west watford!!)

Mike doesn't get the point. The reason there has been a higher proportion of allotments in West Watford to the rest of the Borough is precisely as Mike has said - the size of the gardens. If he hadn't noticed nearly all the housing is terraced (built around 1900 to 1920) and from this the allotments naturally sprung up because of the lack of space. Many of the streets around West Watford had allotments on them (if you look along Brightwell Road over 1/3 of the road are 1970 builds that were originally allotments and replaced with housing). Therefore the allotments sit hand in hand with the housing because of the way West Watford developed at the turn of the 19th century so the demand and requirement for allotments was the same then, is now and will still be in the future. By proposing to relocate the allotments you are moving them out of there natural catchment area to the edge of Oxhey so demand will eventually drop, they will become disused, the Council will say demand has dropped, they will close the relocated site and allotments in the Borough will reduce further.

and hear hear to Maceo & Fred!!

You know, dotty Dotty really has lost the plot (no pun intended).
She wants to sell off a wonderful resource -the allotments- and she also wants to pretty up the pond in the High Street by building a bridge over it.
Both these plans are ludicrous.
Dotty Dotty is crazy.

Well the next thing you'll hear is that the LibDems will simply propose to save the allotments by building the new homes on a raft suspended above the plots on concrete piers. Underground allotments. Yep, that'll be Dotty.

I think she's showing just how power-mad she has become over these allotments. She's not the Dotty I voted for in the past.

I hope she is voted out, along with her majority of councillors, at the next elections.

It's so sad to see a decent town like Watford at the mercy of just one party. I'm sure some of the other parties might also become power-crazed given half the chance and a good majority, but the Liberals seem to be in their element bossing us around and steamrollering anyone who dares get in their way.

Dotty gave us hope when she and her party took over from the Labour party, Labour who had done so much to screw Watford for so long. The Liberals always seemed to be the reasonal party, if you could ignore the sandals and scandals. Now she has taken that hope away and in many ways is just as bad as what came before her. Certainly in arrogance.

We don't want Labour, we don't want Liberals, that leaves the Tories, Greens and UKIP or a hung council. If I could, I would vote for a hung council, I'd hate to see a one-party town of any colour after the experience of the last few decades.

What is it about power that corrupts? I'm sure she wasn't that mad when she first started.

MarsLander, you talk a lot of sense.

Harry Bee wrote:
MarsLander, you talk a lot of sense.

Thank you, I do my best but I'm not a councillor so I suppose that helps.

Mike Watford, Tara1978 etc. - obviously council staff.