Labour councillors fail to change minds at Farm Terrace meeting

First published in News Watford Observer: Photograph of the Author by , Chief Reporter

Opposition politicians have failed to force a rethink on plans to build over a set of historic West Watford allotments as part of the Watford Health Campus.

An attempt to send the Farm Terrace Allotment decision back to Watford Borough Council’s ruling cabinet was voted down by Liberal Democrat councillors at a meeting last night.

At a meeting of the council’s overview and scrutiny committee last night councillors and allotment-holders got a chance to question two of the cabinet politicians who made the decision.

Opposition Labour councillors called in the decision made by elected-mayor Dorothy Thornhill and her cabinet on December 3, which would see the land used for housing and hospital buildings.

The move comes as part of the multimillion pound project that will see the land behind Vicarage Road redeveloped with a new hospital and around 600 new homes.

The meeting started with deputy Labour leader Jagtar Singh Dhindsa asking why Mayor Thornhill had not attended.

Councillor Iain Sharpe, the Lib Dem portfolio holder for planning, legal and property, said it was because the health campus came under his purview and that of the community portfolio holder, Keith Crout.

Labour leader Nigel Bell began proceedings by outlining his party’s concerns that sites other than Farm Terrace had not been considered for housing, and also asked why a private finance initiative had not been explored as a way to deliver the new hospital.

He also expressed concern that so many new homes were being "crammed" into an already densely populated area of West Watford.

"We are not opposed to housing on the health campus site but 600 seems to us and many in West Watford over the top," said Councillor Bell.

Representatives of the allotment holders were also allowed to address the committee before the cabinet members were questioned.

One representative, Marion Harvey, said allotment-holders had always supported the health campus and the new hospital.

She added: "It is particularly the annexation of Farm Terrace we have found difficult to understand and in all honesty I still can’t see a real reason why it should go ahead."

Mrs Harvey also pointed out there was currently no funding or concrete plan for a new hospital and said the allotments should only be considered once there was.

Mary Reid, from the West Watford and Oxhey Garden and Allotment Society, said the Farm Terrace land was only being used for around 60 homes and asked why other land could not be used for those houses.

Councillor Sharpe argued that without the Farm Terrace land the health campus scheme was "barely viable" and only became viable for developers and the council with it included.

Cabinet members were also pressed about what would happen if the government rejected the council’s application to build on Farm Terrace.

Councillor Sharpe said in that case the land would be left but more homes would need to be shoehorned onto the site as flats to make the scheme viable and the new hospital would suffer.

He added "Every time you do something reducing the return it queries the viability of the whole thing including the hospital."

Councillor Sharpe also challenged Labour councillors to suggest land suitable to take some of the health campus houses, saying the council had looked at all other options and there were none.

He said: "There is no magical parcel of land waiting for us to develop".

In the end a motion to send the Farm Terrace decision back to the cabinet was defeated with two Labour and a Green councillor voting for and five Liberal Democrats voting against.

Comments (74)

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6:34pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Vicar*o*rage says...

How typical of the Lib Dem AKA LibDem/Conning Party. Where is local democracy?
How typical of the Lib Dem AKA LibDem/Conning Party. Where is local democracy? Vicar*o*rage
  • Score: 0

6:42pm Fri 21 Dec 12

AlbansWoodBear says...

Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders - but yes still a shame though.
Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders - but yes still a shame though. AlbansWoodBear
  • Score: 0

7:17pm Fri 21 Dec 12

WWOGAS says...

Robbing Peter to pay Paul - see Wikipaedia, it has an excellent definition of the socio-economic functions of allotment gardens. Nowhere does it say that allotments should be a cheap source of money for Council building projects. Allotments were excellent in concept, should be considered sacrosanct, and kept for our children.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul - see Wikipaedia, it has an excellent definition of the socio-economic functions of allotment gardens. Nowhere does it say that allotments should be a cheap source of money for Council building projects. Allotments were excellent in concept, should be considered sacrosanct, and kept for our children. WWOGAS
  • Score: 0

7:41pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Harry Bee says...

So unfair - Of course it was voted down as the LibDems outnumbered the other parties. LibDems have the majority holding and so whatever they say (under dotty Dotty's approval) goes.
Dotty tells them to jump and they ask, "How high?" Those in her party seem too cowed down to go against her. Even if 95% of the LibDems didn't agree with these plans they wouldn't dream of going against Dotty. Not sure if they are scared of her or brainwashed by her.
So unfair - Of course it was voted down as the LibDems outnumbered the other parties. LibDems have the majority holding and so whatever they say (under dotty Dotty's approval) goes. Dotty tells them to jump and they ask, "How high?" Those in her party seem too cowed down to go against her. Even if 95% of the LibDems didn't agree with these plans they wouldn't dream of going against Dotty. Not sure if they are scared of her or brainwashed by her. Harry Bee
  • Score: 0

9:33pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Steve, Abbots Langley says...

Councillor Sharpe continues to make it up as he goes along. His government could fund the whole project and leave the allotments intact but they chose not to. You can have the hospital and the allotments but that scenario will not come to pass because of the rank amateur, crass and incompetent way the tired and out-of-touch Thornhill-led Lib Dems have handled the whole scheme. Shame she couldn't be bothered to turn up and left it to her ham-fisted husband. How much money do the borough council stand to lose if this goes wrong?
Councillor Sharpe continues to make it up as he goes along. His government could fund the whole project and leave the allotments intact but they chose not to. You can have the hospital and the allotments but that scenario will not come to pass because of the rank amateur, crass and incompetent way the tired and out-of-touch Thornhill-led Lib Dems have handled the whole scheme. Shame she couldn't be bothered to turn up and left it to her ham-fisted husband. How much money do the borough council stand to lose if this goes wrong? Steve, Abbots Langley
  • Score: 0

10:15pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Steve, Abbots Langley wrote:
Councillor Sharpe continues to make it up as he goes along. His government could fund the whole project and leave the allotments intact but they chose not to. You can have the hospital and the allotments but that scenario will not come to pass because of the rank amateur, crass and incompetent way the tired and out-of-touch Thornhill-led Lib Dems have handled the whole scheme. Shame she couldn't be bothered to turn up and left it to her ham-fisted husband. How much money do the borough council stand to lose if this goes wrong?
Good point well made by Steve. After attending last nights meeting it seems that our Council have decided without consulting it's residents beforehand not to just invest Council land in their joint venture with Kier but also Council funds. Now I assume that these are not allocated funds for services so could be Council reserves (technically yours and mine). If this is the case then I am sure I'm not the only Watford resident who thinks that they should have been consulted on the risks involved. Perish the thought if something unforeseen happens then we could see the Council in the position of having to cut services and raising council tax and with that being asked by its residents why were we not made aware of these risks especially at at a time of financial constraint.
[quote][p][bold]Steve, Abbots Langley[/bold] wrote: Councillor Sharpe continues to make it up as he goes along. His government could fund the whole project and leave the allotments intact but they chose not to. You can have the hospital and the allotments but that scenario will not come to pass because of the rank amateur, crass and incompetent way the tired and out-of-touch Thornhill-led Lib Dems have handled the whole scheme. Shame she couldn't be bothered to turn up and left it to her ham-fisted husband. How much money do the borough council stand to lose if this goes wrong?[/p][/quote]Good point well made by Steve. After attending last nights meeting it seems that our Council have decided without consulting it's residents beforehand not to just invest Council land in their joint venture with Kier but also Council funds. Now I assume that these are not allocated funds for services so could be Council reserves (technically yours and mine). If this is the case then I am sure I'm not the only Watford resident who thinks that they should have been consulted on the risks involved. Perish the thought if something unforeseen happens then we could see the Council in the position of having to cut services and raising council tax and with that being asked by its residents why were we not made aware of these risks especially at at a time of financial constraint. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

10:18pm Fri 21 Dec 12

PhilCox says...

I attended this meeting. It was more like a show trial than local democracy. In fact, I would say that there is no local democracy operating in Watford local council. None at all. It's a one-party "banana republic", with Dotty clearly the banana.

At the meeting the Labour councillors made their case, the allotment holders made their case, the Liberals then made their case, there were some cross-party questions and answers, the Liberals dirty tricks department came to the fore by being insulting and bullying to the Labour councillors and the allotment holders whilst telling a mixture of the truth, half-truths and non-truths.

And then there was a vote. The Liberals voted in a block and as they outnumbered the opposition councillors they won the day. Was anyone surprised? I doubt it.

Did they (the Liberals) win the argument? No.
Did they put forward a cast-iron case for building on the allotment? No.
Did they seriously consider any alternatives to building on the allotments? No
Did they try to see things from the allotment holders point of view? No
Were they concilliatory at all? No.
Did they care? Of course not.

The result had been decided well before the meeting started at 7 o'clock. It's just a shame we had to sit through it for several hours before they confirmed their intentions in a formal vote.

Had they just said at the outset "we are going to vote against you so you might as well all go home now, it doesn't matter what you say" the Liberals could have saved us all several hours of show-trial and for that at least we might all have been grateful.

As for councillor Sharpe saying there was nowhere else in Watford these houses could possibly be built, I can't imagine anyone in Watford believing that.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Where there's no will, you will find a Liberal stitch-up, and that's exactly what we have here.

Another sad day for democracy in Watford.
I attended this meeting. It was more like a show trial than local democracy. In fact, I would say that there is no local democracy operating in Watford local council. None at all. It's a one-party "banana republic", with Dotty clearly the banana. At the meeting the Labour councillors made their case, the allotment holders made their case, the Liberals then made their case, there were some cross-party questions and answers, the Liberals dirty tricks department came to the fore by being insulting and bullying to the Labour councillors and the allotment holders whilst telling a mixture of the truth, half-truths and non-truths. And then there was a vote. The Liberals voted in a block and as they outnumbered the opposition councillors they won the day. Was anyone surprised? I doubt it. Did they (the Liberals) win the argument? No. Did they put forward a cast-iron case for building on the allotment? No. Did they seriously consider any alternatives to building on the allotments? No Did they try to see things from the allotment holders point of view? No Were they concilliatory at all? No. Did they care? Of course not. The result had been decided well before the meeting started at 7 o'clock. It's just a shame we had to sit through it for several hours before they confirmed their intentions in a formal vote. Had they just said at the outset "we are going to vote against you so you might as well all go home now, it doesn't matter what you say" the Liberals could have saved us all several hours of show-trial and for that at least we might all have been grateful. As for councillor Sharpe saying there was nowhere else in Watford these houses could possibly be built, I can't imagine anyone in Watford believing that. Where there's a will, there's a way. Where there's no will, you will find a Liberal stitch-up, and that's exactly what we have here. Another sad day for democracy in Watford. PhilCox
  • Score: 0

10:36pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

This is what happens without a strong opposition locally!
This is what happens without a strong opposition locally! Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

10:42pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Lastly it seems to have been forgotten by our ruling Lib Dem party that the residents of West Watford live mainly in terraced housing surrounded by a football club and large hospital whilst being under a mile away from central Watford. I would say being a proud resident of this area that a great place to live but a touch cramped and low and behold that's wack another 600 homes in. If anyone thinks I am being alarmist pease take a look at West Watford from google earth. What a lot of Watford residents may not understand is that Watford Hospital have to raise their own funds to develop the hospital and that the Council and Kier are building a campus (houses, retail etc) to redevelop the area around the hospital not build a new hospital and the only reason they want to envelope up and concrete over the majority of Farm Terrace Allotments (green space and not a brownfield site) they say is to reduce the financial risk although the overall development costs in but they want a buffer just in case. So a 115 year old assets still in use because of the type of housing that surrounds it is being sacrificed gain "JUST IN CASE".
Lastly it seems to have been forgotten by our ruling Lib Dem party that the residents of West Watford live mainly in terraced housing surrounded by a football club and large hospital whilst being under a mile away from central Watford. I would say being a proud resident of this area that a great place to live but a touch cramped and low and behold that's wack another 600 homes in. If anyone thinks I am being alarmist pease take a look at West Watford from google earth. What a lot of Watford residents may not understand is that Watford Hospital have to raise their own funds to develop the hospital and that the Council and Kier are building a campus (houses, retail etc) to redevelop the area around the hospital not build a new hospital and the only reason they want to envelope up and concrete over the majority of Farm Terrace Allotments (green space and not a brownfield site) they say is to reduce the financial risk although the overall development costs in but they want a buffer just in case. So a 115 year old assets still in use because of the type of housing that surrounds it is being sacrificed gain "JUST IN CASE". Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

11:15pm Fri 21 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about.
The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford.
As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use?
But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...
PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about. The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford. As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use? But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point... Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

11:51am Sat 22 Dec 12

TRT says...

AlbansWoodBear wrote:
Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders - but yes still a shame though.
Ask yourself if the needs of over 250,000 people will be being met by this new hospital being here. It's supposed to service Hemel and St. Albans as well!
[quote][p][bold]AlbansWoodBear[/bold] wrote: Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders - but yes still a shame though.[/p][/quote]Ask yourself if the needs of over 250,000 people will be being met by this new hospital being here. It's supposed to service Hemel and St. Albans as well! TRT
  • Score: 0

1:12pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about.
The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford.
As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use?
But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...
Although I commend Wacko on his support for the lib dems he is still missing the point. The health campus development will go ahead with or without the allotments. They are only being included as the lib dems state that building the extra homes on top of those proposed in the original plans reduces the financial risk. For those who have been following this story this equates to 60 odd houses on the allotment green space. Surely the lib dems could find brownfield space elsewhere in the Borough to build this additional small amount of homes and save the allotments. Unfortunately dotty, her husband and the rest of the council lead team don't seem to have the will. Obviously this point will be made to the secretary of state when the time comes.
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about. The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford. As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use? But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...[/p][/quote]Although I commend Wacko on his support for the lib dems he is still missing the point. The health campus development will go ahead with or without the allotments. They are only being included as the lib dems state that building the extra homes on top of those proposed in the original plans reduces the financial risk. For those who have been following this story this equates to 60 odd houses on the allotment green space. Surely the lib dems could find brownfield space elsewhere in the Borough to build this additional small amount of homes and save the allotments. Unfortunately dotty, her husband and the rest of the council lead team don't seem to have the will. Obviously this point will be made to the secretary of state when the time comes. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

1:18pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about.
The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford.
As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use?
But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...
Also Wacko I will let the fellow Jamaican, French, Irish and polish allotment holders about the in depth survey you carried out before coming to the conclusion that all the allotment holders are white middle English with sandals. Apologies I forgot isn't that the nick name given to a large number of lib ?
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: PhilCox says 'there's no democracy in Watford' I think what he means to say is that most of the democratically elected councillors don't share his viewpoint. Sorry Phil if you want to get your opinions heard, put yourself forward and get yourself elected, that's what democracy is all about. The fact that the Libdems are in control reflects their good performance in power as well as the lack of faith Watford residents have in any of the opposition. The conservatives have disappeared almost entirely while they concentrate on in-fighting, Labour still fail to shake off their shocking reputation for financial mismanagement here in Watford and in the country at large, and as for that UKIP lot they are a one policy party and that policy is going to find few friends in cosmopolitan multi-ethnic Watford. As for the Health Campus, I agree it's disgraceful that the council are promoting the modernisation of our high performing but out of date hospital, and I'm shocked that they want to regenerate large areas of polluted and derelict land to provide new homes new workplaces and new publicly accessible green space. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for deciding to relocate the allotments to make way for good quality private and social houses with gardens, and at the same time provide better facilities for all Watford's allotments and compensate the farm terrace tenants. On top of this can you believe they want to include a community garden in the campus so any member of the public can get involved with gardening. What can they be thinking of? I couldn't possibly support that! don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates. The bottom line is why should allotment holders be inconvenienced to provide hospital facilities which a mere half a million residents of West Herts can use? But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...[/p][/quote]Also Wacko I will let the fellow Jamaican, French, Irish and polish allotment holders about the in depth survey you carried out before coming to the conclusion that all the allotment holders are white middle English with sandals. Apologies I forgot isn't that the nick name given to a large number of lib ? Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

1:58pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Sandals?

When I was young the Liberals as they were then called were the party of sandals and scandals.

Have the Liberals now changed their position on sandals? The public must be told.
Sandals? When I was young the Liberals as they were then called were the party of sandals and scandals. Have the Liberals now changed their position on sandals? The public must be told. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

1:59pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project.
Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.
Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project. Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

2:02pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

Just occurs to me that the title for this article has too many words, you could simplify it to the first three: Labour Councillors Fail. Sums up this and lots of other local issues very nicely.
Just occurs to me that the title for this article has too many words, you could simplify it to the first three: Labour Councillors Fail. Sums up this and lots of other local issues very nicely. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

2:08pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project.
Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.
Dear Mr Liberal,

that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko.

With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting.

Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever.

It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward.

the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it.
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project. Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.[/p][/quote]Dear Mr Liberal, that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko. With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting. Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever. It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward. the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

2:13pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
Just occurs to me that the title for this article has too many words, you could simplify it to the first three: Labour Councillors Fail. Sums up this and lots of other local issues very nicely.
Here's another.

"Liberal Party rapes and pillages West Watford"

more words than yours, I know, but far more accurate.

The Labour party, bless them, can only fail because of the Liberals tribal voting pattern, huge majority and lack of principles.
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Just occurs to me that the title for this article has too many words, you could simplify it to the first three: Labour Councillors Fail. Sums up this and lots of other local issues very nicely.[/p][/quote]Here's another. "Liberal Party rapes and pillages West Watford" more words than yours, I know, but far more accurate. The Labour party, bless them, can only fail because of the Liberals tribal voting pattern, huge majority and lack of principles. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

2:20pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

MarsLander wrote:
Sandals?

When I was young the Liberals as they were then called were the party of sandals and scandals.

Have the Liberals now changed their position on sandals? The public must be told.
Keep up MarsLander, Conservatives wear black oxford toe caps, LibDems are in power now so wear brown brogues which look smart but differentiate them from the Cons, Labour stay true to their roots and wear their traditional working men's clogs, and organic vegan friendly hemp sandals have been adopted as footwear of choice for the Greens. If you need more up to date fashion tips let me know.
[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: Sandals? When I was young the Liberals as they were then called were the party of sandals and scandals. Have the Liberals now changed their position on sandals? The public must be told.[/p][/quote]Keep up MarsLander, Conservatives wear black oxford toe caps, LibDems are in power now so wear brown brogues which look smart but differentiate them from the Cons, Labour stay true to their roots and wear their traditional working men's clogs, and organic vegan friendly hemp sandals have been adopted as footwear of choice for the Greens. If you need more up to date fashion tips let me know. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

2:33pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

MarsLander wrote:
Wacko Jacko wrote:
Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project.
Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.
Dear Mr Liberal,

that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko.

With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting.

Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever.

It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward.

the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it.
MarsLander, while you were exploring another planed, the rest of us here in the real world who take the trouble to follow the story and read the council papers know that your are mistaken and that my information is correct, the project is simply not viable without the allotment land. Of course anything could be possible, pigs might fly and as you well know it has been shown to be possible to land an automaton like yourself on a distant planet, but at what cost and to what purpose? No councils these days have cash to splash around since the last Labour government spent the lot, so projects have to be devised in such a way that they are as economical as possible and pay their way. Anyway the allotments are being saved, they're going to Paddock Road.
[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project. Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.[/p][/quote]Dear Mr Liberal, that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko. With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting. Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever. It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward. the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it.[/p][/quote]MarsLander, while you were exploring another planed, the rest of us here in the real world who take the trouble to follow the story and read the council papers know that your are mistaken and that my information is correct, the project is simply not viable without the allotment land. Of course anything could be possible, pigs might fly and as you well know it has been shown to be possible to land an automaton like yourself on a distant planet, but at what cost and to what purpose? No councils these days have cash to splash around since the last Labour government spent the lot, so projects have to be devised in such a way that they are as economical as possible and pay their way. Anyway the allotments are being saved, they're going to Paddock Road. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

2:46pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
MarsLander wrote:
Wacko Jacko wrote:
Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project.
Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.
Dear Mr Liberal,

that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko.

With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting.

Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever.

It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward.

the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it.
MarsLander, while you were exploring another planed, the rest of us here in the real world who take the trouble to follow the story and read the council papers know that your are mistaken and that my information is correct, the project is simply not viable without the allotment land. Of course anything could be possible, pigs might fly and as you well know it has been shown to be possible to land an automaton like yourself on a distant planet, but at what cost and to what purpose? No councils these days have cash to splash around since the last Labour government spent the lot, so projects have to be devised in such a way that they are as economical as possible and pay their way. Anyway the allotments are being saved, they're going to Paddock Road.
Why then was it clearly stated at the previous meeting (3rd Dec) that the Health Campus was viable (i.e. profitable) without the allotments but that there wasn't enough financial margin of comfort in the plans?

It was as plain as that, from the lips of a Liberal councillor.

Were the Liberal councillors lying? Or are you lying? You can't both be right now can you?
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Must correct Maceo & Fred on a couple of points, the allotments are being included for two reasons, to turn the project from a probable loss maker to one which should show a modest return. The second reason is to provide space for new hospital buildings which is after all the core benefit of the project. Secondly point, I didn't need to do a lot of research as I merely quoted from the background papers provided about the allotments which from memory said that 90% of Farm Terrace allotment holders are white British and quite a few in addition are 'white other', hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.[/p][/quote]Dear Mr Liberal, that is simply not true. It has been stated time and again since the meeting on the 3rd December that the project is profitable without the allotments. Unless you know of something that has changed since then Jacko, you're just Wacko. With the hospital not funded or planned, how is it possible to be precise about what land the hospital actually needs? With such a huge plot, it should not be beyond the wit of man to find a solution that leaves the allotments 100% intact. That will have to be the case if the SoS refuses building permission for the allotments, so it must be possible and in fact I believe Cllr Sharpe said as much (see main story) at the meeting. Of course, that relies on the will of the local Liberal party, well Dotty and her dotty husband really, to save them, and there is no will whatsoever. It seems Dotty didn't even have the nerve to turn up for the meeting after feeling the ire of the protesters at the previous meeting. What a coward. the allotments could be saved, they should be saved, but Dotty says no. That's the long and the short of it.[/p][/quote]MarsLander, while you were exploring another planed, the rest of us here in the real world who take the trouble to follow the story and read the council papers know that your are mistaken and that my information is correct, the project is simply not viable without the allotment land. Of course anything could be possible, pigs might fly and as you well know it has been shown to be possible to land an automaton like yourself on a distant planet, but at what cost and to what purpose? No councils these days have cash to splash around since the last Labour government spent the lot, so projects have to be devised in such a way that they are as economical as possible and pay their way. Anyway the allotments are being saved, they're going to Paddock Road.[/p][/quote]Why then was it clearly stated at the previous meeting (3rd Dec) that the Health Campus was viable (i.e. profitable) without the allotments but that there wasn't enough financial margin of comfort in the plans? It was as plain as that, from the lips of a Liberal councillor. Were the Liberal councillors lying? Or are you lying? You can't both be right now can you? MarsLander
  • Score: 0

3:04pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Answer me this, councillor Wacko

If no-one wants Paddock Road and all the allotment holders want Farm Terrace, then...

why not simply build on Paddock Road instead of Farm Terrace?

I don't know anything about Paddock Road or even where it is, but on the face of it this might be a solution.

Then again, there may be a better solution using other council land.

Then again, why not just leave Farm Terrace alone and try to build without it? If the project comes in at a loss, the council can then find some land to sell to offset the loss or take it from reserves.

Then again, can't the council use the money it will spend on tarting up the parade and building the long-awaiting pond crossing that will link the right and left banks of Watford Parade? That's several million, probably all they need.

Apologies to all Liberal councillors if that sounds a little too straightforward and sensible.

I'm not a councillor, but I am willing to look at solutions other than building on the Farm Terrace site. Why are my elected councillors not willing to do the job we are paying them to do and also look for an alternative?

Do we pay the councillors peanuts, and the Mayor too? After all, we only seem to have monkeys and we all know what happens if you get too many monkeys together in one place.
Answer me this, councillor Wacko If no-one wants Paddock Road and all the allotment holders want Farm Terrace, then... why not simply build on Paddock Road instead of Farm Terrace? I don't know anything about Paddock Road or even where it is, but on the face of it this might be a solution. Then again, there may be a better solution using other council land. Then again, why not just leave Farm Terrace alone and try to build without it? If the project comes in at a loss, the council can then find some land to sell to offset the loss or take it from reserves. Then again, can't the council use the money it will spend on tarting up the parade and building the long-awaiting pond crossing that will link the right and left banks of Watford Parade? That's several million, probably all they need. Apologies to all Liberal councillors if that sounds a little too straightforward and sensible. I'm not a councillor, but I am willing to look at solutions other than building on the Farm Terrace site. Why are my elected councillors not willing to do the job we are paying them to do and also look for an alternative? Do we pay the councillors peanuts, and the Mayor too? After all, we only seem to have monkeys and we all know what happens if you get too many monkeys together in one place. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

3:27pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Roy Stockdill says...

>don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.<

So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following.....

1) White.
2) British.
3) Middle-aged.
4) Gardeners.

To which I'm surprised the additional phrase "middle class" wasn't added.

The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc.

I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days?

>hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.<

Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in?
>don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.< So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following..... 1) White. 2) British. 3) Middle-aged. 4) Gardeners. To which I'm surprised the additional phrase "middle class" wasn't added. The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc. I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days? >hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.< Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

5:20pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

MarsLander wrote:
Answer me this, councillor Wacko

If no-one wants Paddock Road and all the allotment holders want Farm Terrace, then...

why not simply build on Paddock Road instead of Farm Terrace?

I don't know anything about Paddock Road or even where it is, but on the face of it this might be a solution.

Then again, there may be a better solution using other council land.

Then again, why not just leave Farm Terrace alone and try to build without it? If the project comes in at a loss, the council can then find some land to sell to offset the loss or take it from reserves.

Then again, can't the council use the money it will spend on tarting up the parade and building the long-awaiting pond crossing that will link the right and left banks of Watford Parade? That's several million, probably all they need.

Apologies to all Liberal councillors if that sounds a little too straightforward and sensible.

I'm not a councillor, but I am willing to look at solutions other than building on the Farm Terrace site. Why are my elected councillors not willing to do the job we are paying them to do and also look for an alternative?

Do we pay the councillors peanuts, and the Mayor too? After all, we only seem to have monkeys and we all know what happens if you get too many monkeys together in one place.
Thanks for the promotion MarsLander.
Your ingenious idea of building first and then selling off assets if you cant afford it or make a loss is a fascinating one, sounds like the sort of cockeyed scheme that former Labour government might have cooked up. Good thing the present coalition has a better concept of financial management.
As for Paddock Road, if you've not looked at it why even suggest such a bonkers idea? Time for you to drive yourself over there and turn over a few rocks. I think you'll find it makes an excellent allotment site, for that is exactly what it already is.
[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: Answer me this, councillor Wacko If no-one wants Paddock Road and all the allotment holders want Farm Terrace, then... why not simply build on Paddock Road instead of Farm Terrace? I don't know anything about Paddock Road or even where it is, but on the face of it this might be a solution. Then again, there may be a better solution using other council land. Then again, why not just leave Farm Terrace alone and try to build without it? If the project comes in at a loss, the council can then find some land to sell to offset the loss or take it from reserves. Then again, can't the council use the money it will spend on tarting up the parade and building the long-awaiting pond crossing that will link the right and left banks of Watford Parade? That's several million, probably all they need. Apologies to all Liberal councillors if that sounds a little too straightforward and sensible. I'm not a councillor, but I am willing to look at solutions other than building on the Farm Terrace site. Why are my elected councillors not willing to do the job we are paying them to do and also look for an alternative? Do we pay the councillors peanuts, and the Mayor too? After all, we only seem to have monkeys and we all know what happens if you get too many monkeys together in one place.[/p][/quote]Thanks for the promotion MarsLander. Your ingenious idea of building first and then selling off assets if you cant afford it or make a loss is a fascinating one, sounds like the sort of cockeyed scheme that former Labour government might have cooked up. Good thing the present coalition has a better concept of financial management. As for Paddock Road, if you've not looked at it why even suggest such a bonkers idea? Time for you to drive yourself over there and turn over a few rocks. I think you'll find it makes an excellent allotment site, for that is exactly what it already is. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

5:37pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.&lt;

So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following.....

1) White.
2) British.
3) Middle-aged.
4) Gardeners.

To which I'm surprised the additional phrase &quot;middle class" wasn't added.

The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc.

I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days?

&gt;hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.&lt;

Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in?
Well said Roy. What wacko doesn't get is that if the allotments are moved out of their natural catchment area and to the very outskirts of Oxhey (over 1.5) miles away demand will drop and the council will eventually close them down as they want to tag them on to the huge site that is already there. The council to get permission fron the secretary of state to do this have to meet a set number of criteria including moving them within a reasonable distance and that they have been actively promoting allotments. My opinion with a strong enough argument farm terrace holders will be able to prove these criteria haven't been followed (fingers crossed). An extreme comparison of catchment areas is the Wimbledon FC story or maybe moving your local post office 2 miles away from its current location. Would you travel 2 miles to use it?
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: >don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.< So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following..... 1) White. 2) British. 3) Middle-aged. 4) Gardeners. To which I'm surprised the additional phrase "middle class" wasn't added. The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc. I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days? >hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.< Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in?[/p][/quote]Well said Roy. What wacko doesn't get is that if the allotments are moved out of their natural catchment area and to the very outskirts of Oxhey (over 1.5) miles away demand will drop and the council will eventually close them down as they want to tag them on to the huge site that is already there. The council to get permission fron the secretary of state to do this have to meet a set number of criteria including moving them within a reasonable distance and that they have been actively promoting allotments. My opinion with a strong enough argument farm terrace holders will be able to prove these criteria haven't been followed (fingers crossed). An extreme comparison of catchment areas is the Wimbledon FC story or maybe moving your local post office 2 miles away from its current location. Would you travel 2 miles to use it? Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

8:13pm Sat 22 Dec 12

Wacko Jacko says...

Maceo &amp; Fred wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.&lt;

So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following.....

1) White.
2) British.
3) Middle-aged.
4) Gardeners.

To which I'm surprised the additional phrase &quot;middle class" wasn't added.

The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc.

I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days?

&gt;hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.&lt;

Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in?
Well said Roy. What wacko doesn't get is that if the allotments are moved out of their natural catchment area and to the very outskirts of Oxhey (over 1.5) miles away demand will drop and the council will eventually close them down as they want to tag them on to the huge site that is already there. The council to get permission fron the secretary of state to do this have to meet a set number of criteria including moving them within a reasonable distance and that they have been actively promoting allotments. My opinion with a strong enough argument farm terrace holders will be able to prove these criteria haven't been followed (fingers crossed). An extreme comparison of catchment areas is the Wimbledon FC story or maybe moving your local post office 2 miles away from its current location. Would you travel 2 miles to use it?
I rest my case.
W.J.
[quote][p][bold]Maceo & Fred[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: >don't they know that gardening really is only for a small clique of white British middle aged people who enjoy their own cozy members-only gardening club behind locked gates.< So it is now more or less an offence in this increasingly benighted, politically correct country to be any of the following..... 1) White. 2) British. 3) Middle-aged. 4) Gardeners. To which I'm surprised the additional phrase "middle class" wasn't added. The first three above could apply to any number of pastimes like bowls, golf, cricket, going to the theatre etc. I am no gardener myself, but pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities that helped to make us different as a nation. During WWII it made a vital contribution to the war effort as well. Has no-one heard of the "Dig For Britain" posters that were all over the place in those days? >hardly representative of the rich cultural and ethnic mix of Vicarage Ward residents.< Isn't that one of the principal reasons why all these new homes are needed, to house all the extra immigrants we're letting in?[/p][/quote]Well said Roy. What wacko doesn't get is that if the allotments are moved out of their natural catchment area and to the very outskirts of Oxhey (over 1.5) miles away demand will drop and the council will eventually close them down as they want to tag them on to the huge site that is already there. The council to get permission fron the secretary of state to do this have to meet a set number of criteria including moving them within a reasonable distance and that they have been actively promoting allotments. My opinion with a strong enough argument farm terrace holders will be able to prove these criteria haven't been followed (fingers crossed). An extreme comparison of catchment areas is the Wimbledon FC story or maybe moving your local post office 2 miles away from its current location. Would you travel 2 miles to use it?[/p][/quote]I rest my case. W.J. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: 0

10:54pm Sat 22 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Wacko,

how about answering all of my questions if you know so much?

By refusing to answer may I take it that you accept my point that the Farm Terrace allotments are not essential to the project and may easily be saved by following my suggestions in the post above?

Have a word in Dotty's and her manipulating husband's shell-like would you? They don't seem to be able or willing to listen to the people of Watford.
Wacko, how about answering all of my questions if you know so much? By refusing to answer may I take it that you accept my point that the Farm Terrace allotments are not essential to the project and may easily be saved by following my suggestions in the post above? Have a word in Dotty's and her manipulating husband's shell-like would you? They don't seem to be able or willing to listen to the people of Watford. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

8:32am Sun 23 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

Plainly the reason that WackoJacko hasn't accepted your point about the allotments not being essential to the project is because it isn't true. Without the allotments it is very very marginal, with them it will make a small return for the council tax payers of Watford.
It really is as simple as that and no amount of blustering by Labour can hide that.
Plainly the reason that WackoJacko hasn't accepted your point about the allotments not being essential to the project is because it isn't true. Without the allotments it is very very marginal, with them it will make a small return for the council tax payers of Watford. It really is as simple as that and no amount of blustering by Labour can hide that. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

8:50am Sun 23 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

clarkie750 wrote:
Plainly the reason that WackoJacko hasn't accepted your point about the allotments not being essential to the project is because it isn't true. Without the allotments it is very very marginal, with them it will make a small return for the council tax payers of Watford.
It really is as simple as that and no amount of blustering by Labour can hide that.
Clarkie,

let's get this straight. At issue here is money, not land.

The council say they need some more millions to make sure the project doesn't make a loss, even though it is forecast to make a small profit already.

My point is, that money could be raised from other sources. See my earlier post and suggestions. Dotty is throwing £4.5 million at the pond area for what amounts to a vanity project, and there are other pieces of council land that could be used instead of the allotments.

Whichever way you look at it, the allotments could easily be saved if there was a political will to do so.

I've seen you post before and you always support the Liberals so I am assuming you are from the same pod as Wacko, but please, put your thinking cap on and consider what I have said. The allotments can be saved quite easily if only someone in power wanted to save them.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: Plainly the reason that WackoJacko hasn't accepted your point about the allotments not being essential to the project is because it isn't true. Without the allotments it is very very marginal, with them it will make a small return for the council tax payers of Watford. It really is as simple as that and no amount of blustering by Labour can hide that.[/p][/quote]Clarkie, let's get this straight. At issue here is money, not land. The council say they need some more millions to make sure the project doesn't make a loss, even though it is forecast to make a small profit already. My point is, that money could be raised from other sources. See my earlier post and suggestions. Dotty is throwing £4.5 million at the pond area for what amounts to a vanity project, and there are other pieces of council land that could be used instead of the allotments. Whichever way you look at it, the allotments could easily be saved if there was a political will to do so. I've seen you post before and you always support the Liberals so I am assuming you are from the same pod as Wacko, but please, put your thinking cap on and consider what I have said. The allotments can be saved quite easily if only someone in power wanted to save them. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

10:22am Sun 23 Dec 12

TRT says...

At the point that a hospital development becomes financially marginal, well, that's the point where we turn round and realise that the NHS, our health, has become as commercialised and capitalist as our banks. What a sad day.
At the point that a hospital development becomes financially marginal, well, that's the point where we turn round and realise that the NHS, our health, has become as commercialised and capitalist as our banks. What a sad day. TRT
  • Score: 0

12:48pm Sun 23 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

No matter how much you twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the allotment land is needed to make the project financially viable. And as for the notion that the NHS is somehow immune from the harsh realities of money is, I am afraid, simply incredible.
Right from its inception it has had to pay its way and, actually, financial rigour is to be encouraged. That is something Labour don't understand both locally and nationally.
No matter how much you twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the allotment land is needed to make the project financially viable. And as for the notion that the NHS is somehow immune from the harsh realities of money is, I am afraid, simply incredible. Right from its inception it has had to pay its way and, actually, financial rigour is to be encouraged. That is something Labour don't understand both locally and nationally. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

1:25pm Sun 23 Dec 12

TRT says...

clarkie750 wrote:
No matter how much you twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the allotment land is needed to make the project financially viable. And as for the notion that the NHS is somehow immune from the harsh realities of money is, I am afraid, simply incredible.
Right from its inception it has had to pay its way and, actually, financial rigour is to be encouraged. That is something Labour don't understand both locally and nationally.
No matter how much YOU twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the project's viability could be secured in a way other than building over Farm Terrace. And you cannot talk about people twisting and turning when that is exactly what the Lib Dem council has done over and over again with this project. First the loss of playing fields in Oxhey Park, now the allotments... what next? The council is playing patsy to the developers, and the developers know that.

As for the NHS being immune to the 'harsh realities of money', that's not what I said, but if you are equating the 'harsh realities of money' with profit before people then I'm sorry to say that's capitalism gone too far.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: No matter how much you twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the allotment land is needed to make the project financially viable. And as for the notion that the NHS is somehow immune from the harsh realities of money is, I am afraid, simply incredible. Right from its inception it has had to pay its way and, actually, financial rigour is to be encouraged. That is something Labour don't understand both locally and nationally.[/p][/quote]No matter how much YOU twist and turn in the wind, you cannot escape the fact that the project's viability could be secured in a way other than building over Farm Terrace. And you cannot talk about people twisting and turning when that is exactly what the Lib Dem council has done over and over again with this project. First the loss of playing fields in Oxhey Park, now the allotments... what next? The council is playing patsy to the developers, and the developers know that. As for the NHS being immune to the 'harsh realities of money', that's not what I said, but if you are equating the 'harsh realities of money' with profit before people then I'm sorry to say that's capitalism gone too far. TRT
  • Score: 0

1:42pm Sun 23 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

A point to reaffirm is that the venture is between Kier and the Council to build a campus including houses, leisure and retail. The hospital has to raise its own money to redevelop. This scheme has nothing financially to do with the hospital apart from asking the joint venture partners if they can have 2/5 of the allotment site to be flexible with their redevelopment. So we are talking 60 odd houses out of the 600 that the council can't find an alternative to save a green space. Of course since the allotments were all of a suddenly needed in June (and let's not forgot that discussions were going on about this land grab before this point as discovered in a FOI request) there have been vultures circling ever since. Lastly when the application goes to the secretary of state this isn't a straight forward let's approve the application. Remember this land is not derelict unlike Willow lane and there will be a large submission against the Councils application. I would love to see bumbling Cllr Sharpe in front of the sec of state answering a question like what if I don't approve your application what is your plan B? The answer could be it was always marginally profitable anyway so we haven't a plan B sir.
A point to reaffirm is that the venture is between Kier and the Council to build a campus including houses, leisure and retail. The hospital has to raise its own money to redevelop. This scheme has nothing financially to do with the hospital apart from asking the joint venture partners if they can have 2/5 of the allotment site to be flexible with their redevelopment. So we are talking 60 odd houses out of the 600 that the council can't find an alternative to save a green space. Of course since the allotments were all of a suddenly needed in June (and let's not forgot that discussions were going on about this land grab before this point as discovered in a FOI request) there have been vultures circling ever since. Lastly when the application goes to the secretary of state this isn't a straight forward let's approve the application. Remember this land is not derelict unlike Willow lane and there will be a large submission against the Councils application. I would love to see bumbling Cllr Sharpe in front of the sec of state answering a question like what if I don't approve your application what is your plan B? The answer could be it was always marginally profitable anyway so we haven't a plan B sir. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

4:00pm Sun 23 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

I am afraid you are wrong. This is a very complicated project with a complicated financial basis to it. Interestingly I am told that Nigel Bell, the Labour leader said in the second part of the cabinet meeting that the project was financially difficult without the allotments. He then was made to look very silly when he was asked why he wanted to make it increase the chances of failure by not including the allotments. One wonders about his commitment to a new hospital.
I am afraid you are wrong. This is a very complicated project with a complicated financial basis to it. Interestingly I am told that Nigel Bell, the Labour leader said in the second part of the cabinet meeting that the project was financially difficult without the allotments. He then was made to look very silly when he was asked why he wanted to make it increase the chances of failure by not including the allotments. One wonders about his commitment to a new hospital. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

4:21pm Sun 23 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Clarkie. Let's agree to disagree and yes I am aware that this s a complicated project and one that had been planned successfully since 2000 without the allotments. Let's see what the secretary of state thinks
Clarkie. Let's agree to disagree and yes I am aware that this s a complicated project and one that had been planned successfully since 2000 without the allotments. Let's see what the secretary of state thinks Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

5:20pm Sun 23 Dec 12

TRT says...

"been planned successfully since 2000"

not THAT successfully, given the current state of the project.
"been planned successfully since 2000" not THAT successfully, given the current state of the project. TRT
  • Score: 0

10:11pm Sun 23 Dec 12

drunkenduck says...

It has been mention in person, it's Kier the developers who "want" the allotments backed by the council not the hospital.

The council kept using the hospital as their excuses but when it was put forward to the NHS Trust. It was finally mention at a meeting that the Trust doesn't want the land.

The plans are drawn up by Kier to show what their development would look like, showing under 25% of the land going to the hospital. Rest to homes, offices etc and a lake.

So is this council and those who run it, can they really be trusted. In this case like many, the answer is No! As since day one, all they've done is, is lied, lied and kept coming up with more excuses to cover their tracks. And now we all know the real truth here, it's not really about the hospital wanting the land. It's the lies from the council, Dottie included and land grabbing Kier the developers.

Anyone says differently, is either naive or has been living else where and has no idea what they're talking about.
It has been mention in person, it's Kier the developers who "want" the allotments backed by the council not the hospital. The council kept using the hospital as their excuses but when it was put forward to the NHS Trust. It was finally mention at a meeting that the Trust doesn't want the land. The plans are drawn up by Kier to show what their development would look like, showing under 25% of the land going to the hospital. Rest to homes, offices etc and a lake. So is this council and those who run it, can they really be trusted. In this case like many, the answer is No! As since day one, all they've done is, is lied, lied and kept coming up with more excuses to cover their tracks. And now we all know the real truth here, it's not really about the hospital wanting the land. It's the lies from the council, Dottie included and land grabbing Kier the developers. Anyone says differently, is either naive or has been living else where and has no idea what they're talking about. drunkenduck
  • Score: 0

10:50pm Sun 23 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

clarkie750 wrote:
I am afraid you are wrong. This is a very complicated project with a complicated financial basis to it. Interestingly I am told that Nigel Bell, the Labour leader said in the second part of the cabinet meeting that the project was financially difficult without the allotments. He then was made to look very silly when he was asked why he wanted to make it increase the chances of failure by not including the allotments. One wonders about his commitment to a new hospital.
Why oh why can't the Liberals answer the questions in an honest and complete way? Is it a Liberal thing?

You prefer not to answer sensible points put to you so you say "it's complicated" to imply that anyone who objects just doesn't understand it. I'm afraid that has been tried before, it just doesn't wash.

You also imply that anyone who doesn't want to build all over the allotments is against the hospital. Another blatant falsehood.

Frankly I find the way you treat the voters of Watford and fellow councillors insulting. By implying lower intelligence in others through falsehoods peddled by yourself and your fellow councillors you are more likely to show gaps in your own intellect.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: I am afraid you are wrong. This is a very complicated project with a complicated financial basis to it. Interestingly I am told that Nigel Bell, the Labour leader said in the second part of the cabinet meeting that the project was financially difficult without the allotments. He then was made to look very silly when he was asked why he wanted to make it increase the chances of failure by not including the allotments. One wonders about his commitment to a new hospital.[/p][/quote]Why oh why can't the Liberals answer the questions in an honest and complete way? Is it a Liberal thing? You prefer not to answer sensible points put to you so you say "it's complicated" to imply that anyone who objects just doesn't understand it. I'm afraid that has been tried before, it just doesn't wash. You also imply that anyone who doesn't want to build all over the allotments is against the hospital. Another blatant falsehood. Frankly I find the way you treat the voters of Watford and fellow councillors insulting. By implying lower intelligence in others through falsehoods peddled by yourself and your fellow councillors you are more likely to show gaps in your own intellect. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

8:26am Mon 24 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work. There just is no getting away from that fact. Moving the allotments is necessary, there is no getting away from that either. There is also no getting away from the cynical behaviour of Labour, who profess to be in favour of a new hospital but are running a campaign that they know would make it unviable.
It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work. There just is no getting away from that fact. Moving the allotments is necessary, there is no getting away from that either. There is also no getting away from the cynical behaviour of Labour, who profess to be in favour of a new hospital but are running a campaign that they know would make it unviable. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

9:01am Mon 24 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

clarkie750 wrote:
It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work. There just is no getting away from that fact. Moving the allotments is necessary, there is no getting away from that either. There is also no getting away from the cynical behaviour of Labour, who profess to be in favour of a new hospital but are running a campaign that they know would make it unviable.
Same old same old Clarkie.

Ok, I'll accept you might find it complicated on the finances front. That doesn't mean I will (I am very financially literate).

Three simple questions you may choose to ignore if the answers would go against the Liberal group on council.

1. Why not use the money Dotty has promised to the parade and bridge for this hospital? By your own questionable logic, is it because Dotty is not committed to the hospital enough to make that sacrifice? There's £4.5 million there for the taking.

2. Why can other land not be found to make the money needed to give the hospital project a big fat cushion, leaving the allotments alone?

3. Are you saying there is no possibility whatsoever of finding enough land to build 60 houses on (it doesn't have to be just one plot) apart from the allotments?

Please feel free to give answers to some questions I never asked whilst questioning the good character of those who would see the allotments saved, however if you wish to have any credibility on this site and for your party locally, you really should consider giving a proper answer to the questions above to help move this debate forward.

If you truly believe the finances are complicated, explain them on here or get someone who understands them to help you explain them on here. Just saying they are complicated looks like a smokescreen to hide something else.

So far it looks like the Liberals are acting in a duplicitous way whilst hiding the facts from the people and refusing to engage in serious debate. Is that an image of your party you really wish to foster?

I am serious, please engage Clarkie as you are clearly a councillor or someone with a lot of knowledge and involvement in the council. Maybe then we can get to the bottom of all this.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work. There just is no getting away from that fact. Moving the allotments is necessary, there is no getting away from that either. There is also no getting away from the cynical behaviour of Labour, who profess to be in favour of a new hospital but are running a campaign that they know would make it unviable.[/p][/quote]Same old same old Clarkie. Ok, I'll accept you might find it complicated on the finances front. That doesn't mean I will (I am very financially literate). Three simple questions you may choose to ignore if the answers would go against the Liberal group on council. 1. Why not use the money Dotty has promised to the parade and bridge for this hospital? By your own questionable logic, is it because Dotty is not committed to the hospital enough to make that sacrifice? There's £4.5 million there for the taking. 2. Why can other land not be found to make the money needed to give the hospital project a big fat cushion, leaving the allotments alone? 3. Are you saying there is no possibility whatsoever of finding enough land to build 60 houses on (it doesn't have to be just one plot) apart from the allotments? Please feel free to give answers to some questions I never asked whilst questioning the good character of those who would see the allotments saved, however if you wish to have any credibility on this site and for your party locally, you really should consider giving a proper answer to the questions above to help move this debate forward. If you truly believe the finances are complicated, explain them on here or get someone who understands them to help you explain them on here. Just saying they are complicated looks like a smokescreen to hide something else. So far it looks like the Liberals are acting in a duplicitous way whilst hiding the facts from the people and refusing to engage in serious debate. Is that an image of your party you really wish to foster? I am serious, please engage Clarkie as you are clearly a councillor or someone with a lot of knowledge and involvement in the council. Maybe then we can get to the bottom of all this. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

11:16am Mon 24 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

Yes I do have a lot of knowledge about this project. That is why I know the decision taken is the right one. I also think that regenerating the top of the town is very important.so your suggestion of not doing that is wrong as well.
Likewise I think that a new hospital, parkland, decent homes and over a 1000 new jobs are more important than an allotment site. The figures simply don't stack up if the allotments are excluded. And ,of course, there will be a replacement allotment site as well as the vacancies on other west Watford sites.
On the subject of duplicity, as I said earlier, my information is that Labourwere hopelessly exposed at the cabinet meeting as paying lip service to a new hospital but doing their best to scupper it.
Yes I do have a lot of knowledge about this project. That is why I know the decision taken is the right one. I also think that regenerating the top of the town is very important.so your suggestion of not doing that is wrong as well. Likewise I think that a new hospital, parkland, decent homes and over a 1000 new jobs are more important than an allotment site. The figures simply don't stack up if the allotments are excluded. And ,of course, there will be a replacement allotment site as well as the vacancies on other west Watford sites. On the subject of duplicity, as I said earlier, my information is that Labourwere hopelessly exposed at the cabinet meeting as paying lip service to a new hospital but doing their best to scupper it. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

2:17pm Mon 24 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Clarkie,

many thanks for the reply.

Firstly, you have failed to answer my questions 2 & 3. I will assume you are a councillor for avoiding the issues that would save the allotments.

As for the Labour councillors being shown up as people trying to scupper the hospital project, that is not the impression I have been given at all.

You also did not comment about Dotty wanting a revamped parade and bridge more than a hospital. Shall we take it that I have a point there? Something to do with Liberal party priorities for Watford?

I really don't understand your confusion on how Labour are trying to save the allotments against overwhelming odds and confusing that with not wanting the hospital to succeed. Both can be achieved if there was political will on the part of your party in the council.

A merry Christmas to all the allotment holders, and I hope that Dotty and her party are visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future. The Liberals may come to reconsider how they treat the people of Watford.

It is clear you hold the allotment site in very low regard and are determined to get rid of it. What are the reasons? The real reasons?
Clarkie, many thanks for the reply. Firstly, you have failed to answer my questions 2 & 3. I will assume you are a councillor for avoiding the issues that would save the allotments. As for the Labour councillors being shown up as people trying to scupper the hospital project, that is not the impression I have been given at all. You also did not comment about Dotty wanting a revamped parade and bridge more than a hospital. Shall we take it that I have a point there? Something to do with Liberal party priorities for Watford? I really don't understand your confusion on how Labour are trying to save the allotments against overwhelming odds and confusing that with not wanting the hospital to succeed. Both can be achieved if there was political will on the part of your party in the council. A merry Christmas to all the allotment holders, and I hope that Dotty and her party are visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future. The Liberals may come to reconsider how they treat the people of Watford. It is clear you hold the allotment site in very low regard and are determined to get rid of it. What are the reasons? The real reasons? MarsLander
  • Score: 0

2:53pm Mon 24 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

clarkie750 wrote:
Yes I do have a lot of knowledge about this project. That is why I know the decision taken is the right one. I also think that regenerating the top of the town is very important.so your suggestion of not doing that is wrong as well.
Likewise I think that a new hospital, parkland, decent homes and over a 1000 new jobs are more important than an allotment site. The figures simply don't stack up if the allotments are excluded. And ,of course, there will be a replacement allotment site as well as the vacancies on other west Watford sites.
On the subject of duplicity, as I said earlier, my information is that Labourwere hopelessly exposed at the cabinet meeting as paying lip service to a new hospital but doing their best to scupper it.
Replacement allotments? Show us the plans!

I agree with MarsLander.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: Yes I do have a lot of knowledge about this project. That is why I know the decision taken is the right one. I also think that regenerating the top of the town is very important.so your suggestion of not doing that is wrong as well. Likewise I think that a new hospital, parkland, decent homes and over a 1000 new jobs are more important than an allotment site. The figures simply don't stack up if the allotments are excluded. And ,of course, there will be a replacement allotment site as well as the vacancies on other west Watford sites. On the subject of duplicity, as I said earlier, my information is that Labourwere hopelessly exposed at the cabinet meeting as paying lip service to a new hospital but doing their best to scupper it.[/p][/quote]Replacement allotments? Show us the plans! I agree with MarsLander. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

11:11pm Mon 24 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Good point sir. The allotments have been part of the fabric of West Watford because of the nature of the housing stock in Xmas past, present and the future and not where our lib dems propose to relocate them to on the very outskirts of the borough. Mind you if they built 60 odd homes next to this relocation site there could be the demand or should I dare say it build the houses there as apparently the site is half full of rubble already. And also I think the council under estimate the small little band of British white sandle wearing farmers (I quote my liberal friend) when it comes to the final battle with the secretary of state.
Good point sir. The allotments have been part of the fabric of West Watford because of the nature of the housing stock in Xmas past, present and the future and not where our lib dems propose to relocate them to on the very outskirts of the borough. Mind you if they built 60 odd homes next to this relocation site there could be the demand or should I dare say it build the houses there as apparently the site is half full of rubble already. And also I think the council under estimate the small little band of British white sandle wearing farmers (I quote my liberal friend) when it comes to the final battle with the secretary of state. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

11:13am Wed 26 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

There seems to be a misconception that the allotments are being incorporated into the project to spite the allotment holders. The fact is it is very risky without the allotments. Labout know this but are still campaignng against it, yet claim to be in support of a new hospital. Hypocrites of the first order.
There seems to be a misconception that the allotments are being incorporated into the project to spite the allotment holders. The fact is it is very risky without the allotments. Labout know this but are still campaignng against it, yet claim to be in support of a new hospital. Hypocrites of the first order. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

12:39pm Wed 26 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

clarkie750 wrote:
There seems to be a misconception that the allotments are being incorporated into the project to spite the allotment holders. The fact is it is very risky without the allotments. Labout know this but are still campaignng against it, yet claim to be in support of a new hospital. Hypocrites of the first order.
Clarkie,

to a fair-minded visitor to Watford that is exactly what it looks like.

How else would you describe this unprincipled push to develop scarce, valuable and utilised land within a Labour stronghold when land or money from elsewhere in Watford could quite as easily be used? Not the word "easily".

The only misconception is that you and the rest of the Liberals seem to think that if you say an untruth enough times people will start to believe you. We won't, you're wrong and the sooner you admit it the better.

You may not be acting against allotment holders per se, but you are acting against allotment holders in west Watford, the Labour party, particularly in West Watford and the whole of the electorate in west Watford.

Find somewhere else for your 60 houses or use the pond money. Failure to do so will allow us to believe the Liberal party is not committed to the new hospital and would rather score political points and disadvantage the people of West Watford than develop a hospital for people of all (or no) political persuasions.

Personally I am getting to a point where your intransigence makes me wonder whether west Watford is the right place for it at all.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: There seems to be a misconception that the allotments are being incorporated into the project to spite the allotment holders. The fact is it is very risky without the allotments. Labout know this but are still campaignng against it, yet claim to be in support of a new hospital. Hypocrites of the first order.[/p][/quote]Clarkie, to a fair-minded visitor to Watford that is exactly what it looks like. How else would you describe this unprincipled push to develop scarce, valuable and utilised land within a Labour stronghold when land or money from elsewhere in Watford could quite as easily be used? Not the word "easily". The only misconception is that you and the rest of the Liberals seem to think that if you say an untruth enough times people will start to believe you. We won't, you're wrong and the sooner you admit it the better. You may not be acting against allotment holders per se, but you are acting against allotment holders in west Watford, the Labour party, particularly in West Watford and the whole of the electorate in west Watford. Find somewhere else for your 60 houses or use the pond money. Failure to do so will allow us to believe the Liberal party is not committed to the new hospital and would rather score political points and disadvantage the people of West Watford than develop a hospital for people of all (or no) political persuasions. Personally I am getting to a point where your intransigence makes me wonder whether west Watford is the right place for it at all. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

12:41pm Wed 26 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

correction - should have been "Note the word "easily".
correction - should have been "Note the word "easily". MarsLander
  • Score: 0

1:37pm Wed 26 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent.

If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased.

Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways.
If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent. If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased. Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

12:14pm Thu 27 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

MarsLander wrote:
If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent.

If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased.

Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways.
MarsLander, I couldn't agree with you more.

Dorothy's Christmas Card press release timing in the WO on 24/12/12 also appears to be nothing but spin to soften this pre-determined outcome (see my critique http://www.watfordob
server.co.uk/news/10
126226.Mayor_s_Chris
tmas_card_raises_ove
r___4_000_for_charit
y/).

I do not hate the Liberals, I hate an unhealthy majority of any political persuasion. Rarely does it serve the electorate / local residents well. Clarkie750's arguments / submissions are weak and cannot stand up to scrutiny.

With a weak opposition (in terms of numbers), Liberals can pretty much do as they please and often to the detriment of local residents and those without deep pockets or political influence.
[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent. If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased. Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways.[/p][/quote]MarsLander, I couldn't agree with you more. Dorothy's Christmas Card press release timing in the WO on 24/12/12 also appears to be nothing but spin to soften this pre-determined outcome (see my critique http://www.watfordob server.co.uk/news/10 126226.Mayor_s_Chris tmas_card_raises_ove r___4_000_for_charit y/). I do not hate the Liberals, I hate an unhealthy majority of any political persuasion. Rarely does it serve the electorate / local residents well. Clarkie750's arguments / submissions are weak and cannot stand up to scrutiny. With a weak opposition (in terms of numbers), Liberals can pretty much do as they please and often to the detriment of local residents and those without deep pockets or political influence. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

1:59pm Thu 27 Dec 12

Mohandas says...

What a great debate and let’s hope it leads to more engagement and more awareness in local politics.
AlbansWoodBear …‘Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders’. It’s unfortunately more than that. It’s about the urban landscape and taking a long view.
WWOGAS .. ‘Robbing Peter to pay Paul … it has an excellent definition of the socio-economic functions of allotment gardens. Nowhere does it say that allotments should be a cheap source of money for Council building projects. Allotments … should be considered sacrosanct, and kept for our children’.
Razor Sharp ...’This is what happens without a strong opposition locally!’ We need opposition for a healthy democracy if powerful groups are to be in check.
Wacko Jacko …‘But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...’. I couldn’t agree more but useless unwinnable wars in Afghanistan means we’re sadly forced to look at our silver to pay for hospitals.
MarsLander … ‘ tribal voting pattern’ sadly that has become so much a pattern of British politics’. Hopefully the PCC elections have broken the mold to avoid the sheep voting pattern.
Roy Stockdill … ‘ pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities’. Maceo & Fred ... ‘The allotments have been part of the fabric of West Watford because of the nature of the housing stock’. Nothing beats flying into England and seeing a patchwork of fields.
clarkie750 … ‘It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work’. Are our national taxes used inefficiently?
The disturbing angle of all this is the underlying creep and tacit acceptance that essential‘public goods’ eg hospitals,schools, roads, law & order,housing etc are no longer affordable from the growing enormous list of national taxes - over £500 billion. 2013 has to be a year when we better prioritise how best to help our hard pressed citizens.
What a great debate and let’s hope it leads to more engagement and more awareness in local politics. AlbansWoodBear …‘Whilst disappointing of course, and it would have been great to keep the allotments, it becomes a "no brainer" when weighing up the needs of over 250,000 people to obtain up-to-date medical services in a high tech hospital against two dozen or so vocal allotment holders’. It’s unfortunately more than that. It’s about the urban landscape and taking a long view. WWOGAS .. ‘Robbing Peter to pay Paul … it has an excellent definition of the socio-economic functions of allotment gardens. Nowhere does it say that allotments should be a cheap source of money for Council building projects. Allotments … should be considered sacrosanct, and kept for our children’. Razor Sharp ...’This is what happens without a strong opposition locally!’ We need opposition for a healthy democracy if powerful groups are to be in check. Wacko Jacko …‘But then thinking about it democracy is about getting the best outcome for the majority of people, so maybe Mayor Dorothy and her supporters have a point...’. I couldn’t agree more but useless unwinnable wars in Afghanistan means we’re sadly forced to look at our silver to pay for hospitals. MarsLander … ‘ tribal voting pattern’ sadly that has become so much a pattern of British politics’. Hopefully the PCC elections have broken the mold to avoid the sheep voting pattern. Roy Stockdill … ‘ pottering about on an allotment is surely one of the great British eccentricities’. Maceo & Fred ... ‘The allotments have been part of the fabric of West Watford because of the nature of the housing stock’. Nothing beats flying into England and seeing a patchwork of fields. clarkie750 … ‘It is a complex project with complex funding needed to make it work’. Are our national taxes used inefficiently? The disturbing angle of all this is the underlying creep and tacit acceptance that essential‘public goods’ eg hospitals,schools, roads, law & order,housing etc are no longer affordable from the growing enormous list of national taxes - over £500 billion. 2013 has to be a year when we better prioritise how best to help our hard pressed citizens. Mohandas
  • Score: 0

2:52pm Thu 27 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Razor Sharp wrote:
MarsLander wrote:
If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent.

If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased.

Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways.
MarsLander, I couldn't agree with you more.

Dorothy's Christmas Card press release timing in the WO on 24/12/12 also appears to be nothing but spin to soften this pre-determined outcome (see my critique http://www.watfordob

server.co.uk/news/10

126226.Mayor_s_Chris

tmas_card_raises_ove

r___4_000_for_charit

y/).

I do not hate the Liberals, I hate an unhealthy majority of any political persuasion. Rarely does it serve the electorate / local residents well. Clarkie750's arguments / submissions are weak and cannot stand up to scrutiny.

With a weak opposition (in terms of numbers), Liberals can pretty much do as they please and often to the detriment of local residents and those without deep pockets or political influence.
I pretty much agree with you. I don't hate the Liberals, though I pretty much hate the way they treat the town of Watford with their unhealthy majority.

It smacks of contempt for anyone not in their clique.

I am not in west watford, I do not vote Labour. I have voted for Liberals in the past who are now on the council. I will not be voting for them again, at least until their majority is smashed or they change their ways.

The Liberals in Watford need to learn a lesson. It is just a case of whether they rein themselves in and recognise they need to act in the interests of all in Watford, or they learn the hard way by being kicked out of power and kept from power for a very long time indeed through peoples disgust at their actions.
[quote][p][bold]Razor Sharp[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: If the Liberal administration cannot find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm Terrace allotments for this development then they are incompetent. If the Liberal administration will not find an alternative to swallowing up the Farm terrace allotments then they are biased. Either way, they are not fit to run a town like Watford unless they change their ways.[/p][/quote]MarsLander, I couldn't agree with you more. Dorothy's Christmas Card press release timing in the WO on 24/12/12 also appears to be nothing but spin to soften this pre-determined outcome (see my critique http://www.watfordob server.co.uk/news/10 126226.Mayor_s_Chris tmas_card_raises_ove r___4_000_for_charit y/). I do not hate the Liberals, I hate an unhealthy majority of any political persuasion. Rarely does it serve the electorate / local residents well. Clarkie750's arguments / submissions are weak and cannot stand up to scrutiny. With a weak opposition (in terms of numbers), Liberals can pretty much do as they please and often to the detriment of local residents and those without deep pockets or political influence.[/p][/quote]I pretty much agree with you. I don't hate the Liberals, though I pretty much hate the way they treat the town of Watford with their unhealthy majority. It smacks of contempt for anyone not in their clique. I am not in west watford, I do not vote Labour. I have voted for Liberals in the past who are now on the council. I will not be voting for them again, at least until their majority is smashed or they change their ways. The Liberals in Watford need to learn a lesson. It is just a case of whether they rein themselves in and recognise they need to act in the interests of all in Watford, or they learn the hard way by being kicked out of power and kept from power for a very long time indeed through peoples disgust at their actions. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

8:35pm Thu 27 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

The arguements against using the allotment land are growing more and more bizarre. Some of them are fantastical and it's hard to fathom where they are coming for. They all seem to have one thing in common though, which is a hatred of the Lib Dems. Considering the great benefits their administration has bought to Watford in the last ten years it is easy for me to conclude that the opposition is not based in reality but in some fanciful notion that those politicians who are trying to stop this have of their own view of the world. Put simply they aren't doing it for the good of the town, but because of their lack of vision for Watford. This is reinforced by the actions of the Labour party which would rather Watford didn't get a new hospital, decent housing, over a 1000 jobs and new parkland if it meand moving some allotments. These would all benefit what somebody has described as a Labour heartland more than any other part of the town. It's a shame that Labour have so little concern for their own residents.
The arguements against using the allotment land are growing more and more bizarre. Some of them are fantastical and it's hard to fathom where they are coming for. They all seem to have one thing in common though, which is a hatred of the Lib Dems. Considering the great benefits their administration has bought to Watford in the last ten years it is easy for me to conclude that the opposition is not based in reality but in some fanciful notion that those politicians who are trying to stop this have of their own view of the world. Put simply they aren't doing it for the good of the town, but because of their lack of vision for Watford. This is reinforced by the actions of the Labour party which would rather Watford didn't get a new hospital, decent housing, over a 1000 jobs and new parkland if it meand moving some allotments. These would all benefit what somebody has described as a Labour heartland more than any other part of the town. It's a shame that Labour have so little concern for their own residents. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

10:23pm Thu 27 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

clarkie750 wrote:
The arguements against using the allotment land are growing more and more bizarre. Some of them are fantastical and it's hard to fathom where they are coming for. They all seem to have one thing in common though, which is a hatred of the Lib Dems. Considering the great benefits their administration has bought to Watford in the last ten years it is easy for me to conclude that the opposition is not based in reality but in some fanciful notion that those politicians who are trying to stop this have of their own view of the world. Put simply they aren't doing it for the good of the town, but because of their lack of vision for Watford. This is reinforced by the actions of the Labour party which would rather Watford didn't get a new hospital, decent housing, over a 1000 jobs and new parkland if it meand moving some allotments. These would all benefit what somebody has described as a Labour heartland more than any other part of the town. It's a shame that Labour have so little concern for their own residents.
It looks like you have only one tactic in your responses .......... ignore all other views except your own world view of the Liberals. You should visit Specs4Us for your myopia.

I am with MarsLander in my contempt for the LIBERAL MAJORITY, but not for Liberals per se.

Don't distort other people's statements like you have elsewhere, it's a weak and unbecoming tactic and it smacks of desperation.

Given the strength of feeling and opposition to the decision you have no chance of winning over hearts and minds.

Seeking to divine selective elements from the decision in order to evoke an emotive response will not work on the educated masses. The decision was bogus / without merit, the consultation was theatre and the impact on the allotment holders a travesty.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: The arguements against using the allotment land are growing more and more bizarre. Some of them are fantastical and it's hard to fathom where they are coming for. They all seem to have one thing in common though, which is a hatred of the Lib Dems. Considering the great benefits their administration has bought to Watford in the last ten years it is easy for me to conclude that the opposition is not based in reality but in some fanciful notion that those politicians who are trying to stop this have of their own view of the world. Put simply they aren't doing it for the good of the town, but because of their lack of vision for Watford. This is reinforced by the actions of the Labour party which would rather Watford didn't get a new hospital, decent housing, over a 1000 jobs and new parkland if it meand moving some allotments. These would all benefit what somebody has described as a Labour heartland more than any other part of the town. It's a shame that Labour have so little concern for their own residents.[/p][/quote]It looks like you have only one tactic in your responses .......... ignore all other views except your own world view of the Liberals. You should visit Specs4Us for your myopia. I am with MarsLander in my contempt for the LIBERAL MAJORITY, but not for Liberals per se. Don't distort other people's statements like you have elsewhere, it's a weak and unbecoming tactic and it smacks of desperation. Given the strength of feeling and opposition to the decision you have no chance of winning over hearts and minds. Seeking to divine selective elements from the decision in order to evoke an emotive response will not work on the educated masses. The decision was bogus / without merit, the consultation was theatre and the impact on the allotment holders a travesty. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

11:04pm Thu 27 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

What is Clarkie talking about? He is using words without giving them meaning.

Bizarre? Justify that claim.

Better still, answer the questions put to you.

Clarkie, your replies do you and your party no credit, none at all.
What is Clarkie talking about? He is using words without giving them meaning. Bizarre? Justify that claim. Better still, answer the questions put to you. Clarkie, your replies do you and your party no credit, none at all. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

1:11am Fri 28 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

Well MarsLander, perhaps this is the only way clarkie 750 can defend the indefensible ..... type any old thing and hope it confuses the reader and perhaps they will forget the damage inflicted by earlier posters.
Well MarsLander, perhaps this is the only way clarkie 750 can defend the indefensible ..... type any old thing and hope it confuses the reader and perhaps they will forget the damage inflicted by earlier posters. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

2:26pm Fri 28 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

The notion that this is beng done because it is in a Labour area is bizarre. That's one for starters. The contempt for the voters of Watford who have given a majority to the Lib Dems - bizarre again.
The Labour party's stance. Pretending to support a new hospital whilst trying to scupper it - I'll agree that's not bizarre, it's just Labour.
The notion that this is beng done because it is in a Labour area is bizarre. That's one for starters. The contempt for the voters of Watford who have given a majority to the Lib Dems - bizarre again. The Labour party's stance. Pretending to support a new hospital whilst trying to scupper it - I'll agree that's not bizarre, it's just Labour. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

3:08pm Fri 28 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

clarkie750 wrote:
The notion that this is beng done because it is in a Labour area is bizarre. That's one for starters. The contempt for the voters of Watford who have given a majority to the Lib Dems - bizarre again.
The Labour party's stance. Pretending to support a new hospital whilst trying to scupper it - I'll agree that's not bizarre, it's just Labour.
If in doubt and in a poor arguing / rebuttal position, find a potentially emotive point that might draw in the public, such as the Liberal majority and imply tacit consent for the decision.

A majority in public office is not tacit consent to do as one pleases.

If all else fails, point to a Labour conspiracy.

As with your other postings elsewhere, I am still waiting for a rebuttal or riposte, none of which have been forthcoming.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: The notion that this is beng done because it is in a Labour area is bizarre. That's one for starters. The contempt for the voters of Watford who have given a majority to the Lib Dems - bizarre again. The Labour party's stance. Pretending to support a new hospital whilst trying to scupper it - I'll agree that's not bizarre, it's just Labour.[/p][/quote]If in doubt and in a poor arguing / rebuttal position, find a potentially emotive point that might draw in the public, such as the Liberal majority and imply tacit consent for the decision. A majority in public office is not tacit consent to do as one pleases. If all else fails, point to a Labour conspiracy. As with your other postings elsewhere, I am still waiting for a rebuttal or riposte, none of which have been forthcoming. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

3:11pm Fri 28 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

Arguing with clarkie750 is like shooting fish in a barrel. Over to you MarsLander. I've had my break ..... back to work.
Arguing with clarkie750 is like shooting fish in a barrel. Over to you MarsLander. I've had my break ..... back to work. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

6:36pm Fri 28 Dec 12

clarkie750 says...

Oh dear Razor Sharp. Your first reaction to anything is to point to a Lib Dem conspiracy. Elsewhere on this site you have done just that. And of course you can't admit that Labour are trying to scupper the new hospital and all the other benfits to save some allotments, even though a) they will be reprovided elsewhere and b) there are a lot of vacancies in other nearby sites. Exposing the Labour position doesn't fit your narrrative does it?
None of your chums seem to have asnwered the point about the vacancies because that doesn't fit your odd view of what is good for Watford either.
Oh dear Razor Sharp. Your first reaction to anything is to point to a Lib Dem conspiracy. Elsewhere on this site you have done just that. And of course you can't admit that Labour are trying to scupper the new hospital and all the other benfits to save some allotments, even though a) they will be reprovided elsewhere and b) there are a lot of vacancies in other nearby sites. Exposing the Labour position doesn't fit your narrrative does it? None of your chums seem to have asnwered the point about the vacancies because that doesn't fit your odd view of what is good for Watford either. clarkie750
  • Score: 0

6:53pm Fri 28 Dec 12

TRT says...

Pot meet kettle. It's always a Labour conspiracy you point at Clarkie. Seems to me this hospital plan is a compromise and make do solution where narrow mindedness and a lack of foresight, imagination or innovation is the order of the day. True that the LibDems did do good work when they initially took over from Labour, but now they too have been too long in power. They seem to feel such an overwhelming urge to pull another rabbit from the hat that they are prepared to scrape a hole through the bottom, ruining the hat, in order to do so. Don't get me wrong, I supported the Liberals, but I'm prepared to stand up against them if I think they've got it wrong and boy, are they going for broke in the wrong stakes. 4.5m for a revamp of the Parade area just 10 years after £10m was spent on it. A mega hospital crowbarred into the worst site possible for reaching it from Hemel and St Albans, which causes such ill will that the Secretary of State is going to get dragged into it. A new rail extension with a projection of 75% empty trains at peak which results in the closure of a well used existing station with a refusal to consider better alternatives. A new supermarket with a car park onto the most volatile stretch of road in the borough in terms of congestion, and which will impact the blue light route for aforementioned hospital. Not very joined up thinking.

It's time for a new broom, a new hand on the tiller, a fresh perspective.
Pot meet kettle. It's always a Labour conspiracy you point at Clarkie. Seems to me this hospital plan is a compromise and make do solution where narrow mindedness and a lack of foresight, imagination or innovation is the order of the day. True that the LibDems did do good work when they initially took over from Labour, but now they too have been too long in power. They seem to feel such an overwhelming urge to pull another rabbit from the hat that they are prepared to scrape a hole through the bottom, ruining the hat, in order to do so. Don't get me wrong, I supported the Liberals, but I'm prepared to stand up against them if I think they've got it wrong and boy, are they going for broke in the wrong stakes. 4.5m for a revamp of the Parade area just 10 years after £10m was spent on it. A mega hospital crowbarred into the worst site possible for reaching it from Hemel and St Albans, which causes such ill will that the Secretary of State is going to get dragged into it. A new rail extension with a projection of 75% empty trains at peak which results in the closure of a well used existing station with a refusal to consider better alternatives. A new supermarket with a car park onto the most volatile stretch of road in the borough in terms of congestion, and which will impact the blue light route for aforementioned hospital. Not very joined up thinking. It's time for a new broom, a new hand on the tiller, a fresh perspective. TRT
  • Score: 0

7:13pm Fri 28 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

TRT,

you are correct in all that you have said.

The Liberal democrats have a majority, not a mandate to build on Farm Terrace allotments.

It really is time for a new administration in Watford, the Liberals are now out of control and are not working in the interests of Watford as a whole. Sadly, they simply cannot be trusted.

So who will it be next? Labour, Conservative, Green, UKIP or a coalition? I prefer the coalition idea. One-party control is turning into a disaster and I'm not sure it would be much better with another party replacing the Liberals. In fact, I'd like to see far more independents and move away from the discredited tribal party politics so abused by the ruling Liberal clique.
TRT, you are correct in all that you have said. The Liberal democrats have a majority, not a mandate to build on Farm Terrace allotments. It really is time for a new administration in Watford, the Liberals are now out of control and are not working in the interests of Watford as a whole. Sadly, they simply cannot be trusted. So who will it be next? Labour, Conservative, Green, UKIP or a coalition? I prefer the coalition idea. One-party control is turning into a disaster and I'm not sure it would be much better with another party replacing the Liberals. In fact, I'd like to see far more independents and move away from the discredited tribal party politics so abused by the ruling Liberal clique. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

1:02pm Sat 29 Dec 12

Maceo & Fred says...

Dear Mr Clarkie. Vary saddened about your allotment vacancy comment as another battered tool to beat farm terrace with. It will be interesting to find out from our friends at town hall how much of the parks advertising budget has been spent on advertising allotments. Also dare I come back on your previous sweeping statement about all us white middle aged sandle wearing 40 something's with allotments. How much has the council spent promoting allotments and also promoting them to ethnic minorities especially in west watford? If there are vacancies has the council been doing enough to promote both cases? Let's get some data and show it to the secretary of state when the time comes.
Dear Mr Clarkie. Vary saddened about your allotment vacancy comment as another battered tool to beat farm terrace with. It will be interesting to find out from our friends at town hall how much of the parks advertising budget has been spent on advertising allotments. Also dare I come back on your previous sweeping statement about all us white middle aged sandle wearing 40 something's with allotments. How much has the council spent promoting allotments and also promoting them to ethnic minorities especially in west watford? If there are vacancies has the council been doing enough to promote both cases? Let's get some data and show it to the secretary of state when the time comes. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

6:38pm Sat 29 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

clarkie750 wrote:
Oh dear Razor Sharp. Your first reaction to anything is to point to a Lib Dem conspiracy. Elsewhere on this site you have done just that. And of course you can't admit that Labour are trying to scupper the new hospital and all the other benfits to save some allotments, even though a) they will be reprovided elsewhere and b) there are a lot of vacancies in other nearby sites. Exposing the Labour position doesn't fit your narrrative does it?
None of your chums seem to have asnwered the point about the vacancies because that doesn't fit your odd view of what is good for Watford either.
Well clarkie750, I'll get you some Aloe Vera, because you've been comprehensively burnt by TRT, MarsLander and Maceo & Fred.

I need add nothing more.
[quote][p][bold]clarkie750[/bold] wrote: Oh dear Razor Sharp. Your first reaction to anything is to point to a Lib Dem conspiracy. Elsewhere on this site you have done just that. And of course you can't admit that Labour are trying to scupper the new hospital and all the other benfits to save some allotments, even though a) they will be reprovided elsewhere and b) there are a lot of vacancies in other nearby sites. Exposing the Labour position doesn't fit your narrrative does it? None of your chums seem to have asnwered the point about the vacancies because that doesn't fit your odd view of what is good for Watford either.[/p][/quote]Well clarkie750, I'll get you some Aloe Vera, because you've been comprehensively burnt by TRT, MarsLander and Maceo & Fred. I need add nothing more. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

6:57pm Sat 29 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me.
Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

7:26pm Sat 29 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

True MarsLander, but I wonder whether he has come to terms with being "shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty".

Perhaps he needs to see a counsellor. Maybe the Liberals have one in their camp to deal with their entourage of casualties.

Why didn't any of his colleagues come to his rescue or support him?
True MarsLander, but I wonder whether he has come to terms with being "shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty". Perhaps he needs to see a counsellor. Maybe the Liberals have one in their camp to deal with their entourage of casualties. Why didn't any of his colleagues come to his rescue or support him? Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

8:24pm Sat 29 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Maybe they are embarrassed, not just by him but by their whole local party and the way it treats Watford.

I can't imagine good people put themselves forward to be a Liberal councillor and expect to act in the way they are told to once elected. I know a few Liberal councillors to various degrees and one of them is a very nice and honest person. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the others.
Maybe they are embarrassed, not just by him but by their whole local party and the way it treats Watford. I can't imagine good people put themselves forward to be a Liberal councillor and expect to act in the way they are told to once elected. I know a few Liberal councillors to various degrees and one of them is a very nice and honest person. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the others. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

2:05pm Sun 30 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

Of course they're not all bad.

Your observation is probably correct.

The opposition parties need to get their act together, otherwise we are going to end up with an elected dictatorship of sorts.
Of course they're not all bad. Your observation is probably correct. The opposition parties need to get their act together, otherwise we are going to end up with an elected dictatorship of sorts. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

3:25pm Sun 30 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

We already have one.
We already have one. MarsLander
  • Score: 0

3:54pm Sun 30 Dec 12

Razor Sharp says...

True.
True. Razor Sharp
  • Score: 0

8:04pm Mon 31 Dec 12

Veritas says...

MarsLander wrote:
Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me.
You chaps have really worked out the devious Clarkie aka "Molly" aka,
one very Shady, Rotund
"Iain Sharpe" who when asked if he is a Fib Dem councillor
always denies it?

We have not laughed so much for such a long time, he and his cronies try to gang up and bully, seems he has more than met his match, ha Ha.
what does that tell you about him?

We were a bit concerned that they had a meeting regarding the allotments right before the Xmas hols, when people would be thinking of other things. Glad to see the strength of feeling against this crazy development.

Sharpe goes on about allotment places at other sites, but we gather that people are leaving because they have increased the fees, on other sites in some cases by 100%?
Something which I'm sure will come out when there is a proper investigation, that is why they are half empty!

We all know that Downhill Dotty and Sharpe or Blunty as he is known, have turned
Watford into a mess, so lets
hope that the New Year brings an end to their regime, when they are forced to resign in Shame.

Remember between them,,the pair of useless
idiots are earning £100,000 pa, that is a real disgrace.
[quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me.[/p][/quote]You chaps have really worked out the devious Clarkie aka "Molly" aka, one very Shady, Rotund "Iain Sharpe" who when asked if he is a Fib Dem councillor always denies it? We have not laughed so much for such a long time, he and his cronies try to gang up and bully, seems he has more than met his match, ha Ha. what does that tell you about him? We were a bit concerned that they had a meeting regarding the allotments right before the Xmas hols, when people would be thinking of other things. Glad to see the strength of feeling against this crazy development. Sharpe goes on about allotment places at other sites, but we gather that people are leaving because they have increased the fees, on other sites in some cases by 100%? Something which I'm sure will come out when there is a proper investigation, that is why they are half empty! We all know that Downhill Dotty and Sharpe or Blunty as he is known, have turned Watford into a mess, so lets hope that the New Year brings an end to their regime, when they are forced to resign in Shame. Remember between them,,the pair of useless idiots are earning £100,000 pa, that is a real disgrace. Veritas
  • Score: 0

8:21pm Mon 31 Dec 12

MarsLander says...

Veritas wrote:
MarsLander wrote:
Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me.
You chaps have really worked out the devious Clarkie aka &quot;Molly" aka,
one very Shady, Rotund
"Iain Sharpe" who when asked if he is a Fib Dem councillor
always denies it?

We have not laughed so much for such a long time, he and his cronies try to gang up and bully, seems he has more than met his match, ha Ha.
what does that tell you about him?

We were a bit concerned that they had a meeting regarding the allotments right before the Xmas hols, when people would be thinking of other things. Glad to see the strength of feeling against this crazy development.

Sharpe goes on about allotment places at other sites, but we gather that people are leaving because they have increased the fees, on other sites in some cases by 100%?
Something which I'm sure will come out when there is a proper investigation, that is why they are half empty!

We all know that Downhill Dotty and Sharpe or Blunty as he is known, have turned
Watford into a mess, so lets
hope that the New Year brings an end to their regime, when they are forced to resign in Shame.

Remember between them,,the pair of useless
idiots are earning £100,000 pa, that is a real disgrace.
Agreed about the disgrace of paying them £100k.

I don't mind paying to have a great Mayor who looks after the town and people, but Dotty is just letting the town down with her anti-Labour, anti-West-Watford-re
sidents, big-headed "I'm wonderful" agenda, supported by the slimy Cllr Sharpe who finds it hard to answer questions truthfully. (I am neither a west-Watford resident, allotment holder nor Labour supporter, I just don't like bullying of any kind).

Despite her protests of "If I could have saved Farm Terrace I would..", we are seeing her and her husband for what they really are - parasites feeding off the good people of Watford.

I can't tell if it's ego or the money that drives them on. It's probably a combination of the two.

The Liberals are doing very badly nationally. In the last polls even UKIP had double their support nationally. It can only be a matter of time before reality catches up with the electorate in Watford and the Liberals are just a distant, but bad, dream. And not before time, too!
[quote][p][bold]Veritas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: Clarkie is shallow, lacking in intellectual discussion and honesty. That he represents the Liberals in the comments is no surprise to me.[/p][/quote]You chaps have really worked out the devious Clarkie aka "Molly" aka, one very Shady, Rotund "Iain Sharpe" who when asked if he is a Fib Dem councillor always denies it? We have not laughed so much for such a long time, he and his cronies try to gang up and bully, seems he has more than met his match, ha Ha. what does that tell you about him? We were a bit concerned that they had a meeting regarding the allotments right before the Xmas hols, when people would be thinking of other things. Glad to see the strength of feeling against this crazy development. Sharpe goes on about allotment places at other sites, but we gather that people are leaving because they have increased the fees, on other sites in some cases by 100%? Something which I'm sure will come out when there is a proper investigation, that is why they are half empty! We all know that Downhill Dotty and Sharpe or Blunty as he is known, have turned Watford into a mess, so lets hope that the New Year brings an end to their regime, when they are forced to resign in Shame. Remember between them,,the pair of useless idiots are earning £100,000 pa, that is a real disgrace.[/p][/quote]Agreed about the disgrace of paying them £100k. I don't mind paying to have a great Mayor who looks after the town and people, but Dotty is just letting the town down with her anti-Labour, anti-West-Watford-re sidents, big-headed "I'm wonderful" agenda, supported by the slimy Cllr Sharpe who finds it hard to answer questions truthfully. (I am neither a west-Watford resident, allotment holder nor Labour supporter, I just don't like bullying of any kind). Despite her protests of "If I could have saved Farm Terrace I would..", we are seeing her and her husband for what they really are - parasites feeding off the good people of Watford. I can't tell if it's ego or the money that drives them on. It's probably a combination of the two. The Liberals are doing very badly nationally. In the last polls even UKIP had double their support nationally. It can only be a matter of time before reality catches up with the electorate in Watford and the Liberals are just a distant, but bad, dream. And not before time, too! MarsLander
  • Score: 0

6:11pm Wed 2 Jan 13

Maceo & Fred says...

Hi all. Listen to bbc 3 counties on 3rd January at 7.05 am. The broadcast is live from farm terrace allotments with our good friend the mayor in attendance as well as the allotment holders. Good luck to the loyal allotment holders and get ready for a hoe down with the mayor and her legion of advisors.
Hi all. Listen to bbc 3 counties on 3rd January at 7.05 am. The broadcast is live from farm terrace allotments with our good friend the mayor in attendance as well as the allotment holders. Good luck to the loyal allotment holders and get ready for a hoe down with the mayor and her legion of advisors. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

6:38pm Wed 2 Jan 13

MarsLander says...

Is it open to supporters?
Is it open to supporters? MarsLander
  • Score: 0

6:41pm Wed 2 Jan 13

Maceo & Fred says...

Hi Marslander. All supporters welcome. We are meeting at the alotments at about 6.30 am ish. Top gate next to the footy ground on occupation road.
Hi Marslander. All supporters welcome. We are meeting at the alotments at about 6.30 am ish. Top gate next to the footy ground on occupation road. Maceo & Fred
  • Score: 0

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