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Mayor's Christmas card raises over £4,000 for charity (From Watford Observer)
Get involved: send your pictures, video, news and views by texting WO to 80360, or email us
Mayor of Watford, Dorothy Thornhill's Christmas card raises over £4,000 for Home-Start Watford and Three Rivers charity
10:00am Monday 24th December 2012 in News
By Adam Binnie, Senior Reporter
The mayor of Watford’s Christmas card has raised more than £4,000 for Home-Start Watford and Three Rivers charity.
The card features a festive winter 1930’s view of Little Cassiobury House.
Mayor Thornhill said: "Home-Start Watford and Three Rivers provides practical and emotional support for families with at least one child under the age of five."
The money was raised through sponsorship from Sigma Pharmaceuticals, The Prince of Bengal, Freedom, The Harlequin Shopping Centre, Matthew Arnold & Baldwin Solicitors, Warner Bros Studios Leavesden, Humphreys Plus, Brasier Freeth, Kenwood, West Herts Golf Club and George Ausden Ltd.
Comments(61)
MarsLander
says...
2:22pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Shame about the allotments they are determined to build on.
Razor Sharp
says...
2:41pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Shame for the allotments, shame for democracy and a shame for a weak opposition in Watford.
This is what we've ended up with in Watford, politics with no checks and balances, decisions that are made before consultation and made public after the theatre of consultation ......... And then the cherry on top of the icing on the cake is charity to act as a smoke screen publicised on Christmas Eve.
Wake up and smell the 'Turkey'!
Retlas
says...
4:13pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
5:53pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Retlas wrote:That's on a good day!
Watford council is a dictatorship.
WatfordAlex
says...
7:31pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Harry Caine
says...
10:35am Tue 25 Dec 12
WatfordAlex wrote:Cynics, us?
I'm fairly sure this happens every year, so not sure where all this cynicism is coming from
Everyone knows at the very least Downhill Dorothy knows someone who can walk on the water, even if she can't quite do it herself yet.
Mike Ribble
says...
10:54am Tue 25 Dec 12
Retlas wrote:But a democratically elected one.
Watford council is a dictatorship.
Razor Sharp
says...
11:11am Tue 25 Dec 12
Mike Ribble wrote:What does one expect from a weak opposition (in terms of numbers) which either gets attacked on its record, Councillor histories or attacks itself (WCA being a case in point). The Liberals keep their marketing machine well oiled and seem to know how to play the game. There are lessons to be learnt.
Retlas wrote:But a democratically elected one.
Watford council is a dictatorship.
If the numbers were there, cross-party support in opposition over certain issues might actually become effective.
The Liberals will probably find a way to spin negative feedback and publicity in their favour if they aren't already doing so.
Perhaps it's time that the wider public were 'educated' about the machinery of local politics. Then there might be informed democracy, rather than well timed and systematic manipulation of the local media by those with deep pockets.
clarkie750
says...
1:06pm Tue 25 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
2:36pm Tue 25 Dec 12
clarkie750 wrote:The charity and cause are commendable as I have already stated. However, I stand by my comments as I am sure other people do too.
It's Christmas and it's a card raising funds for charity. Shame some people are so mean spirited and bigoted not to welcome this as good news.
Dorothy is no more than a marketing machine and timing is everything in politics. It is not a case of being "mean spirited". In some way most of us contribute to charitable causes - directly or indirectly, financially or its equivalent, but few of us seek publicity for our efforts and even fewer seek to do so while in public office and fewer still after effectively 'robbing' the rights of West Watford allotment holders.
Cloaks and daggers, diversionary tactics, smokescreens and pulling at emotional heart strings are a common tactic to defend or soften the reality of the situation.
At least businesses are honest about their involvement in fund raising. Corporate Social Responsibility and community involvement are marketable assets and promote goodwill and positive brand image.
The "shame" is not with me, I give to charity and keep the matter private. I seek no credit, nor do most people. I'm a pragmatist, a realist and call it as I see it. If that is bigoted and pedantic, then so are you for seeing this as anything other than what it is.
clarkie750
says...
11:09am Wed 26 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
11:41am Wed 26 Dec 12
clarkie750 wrote:That doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Oh dear. I repeat - mean spirited and bigoted.
What about the poor West Watford allotment holders. Imagine the Christmas they must have had!
Whose "mean spirited and bigoted" now?
garston tony
says...
8:01am Thu 27 Dec 12
WatfordAlex wrote:It does happen every year and I believe pre dates Dotty herself too.
I'm fairly sure this happens every year, so not sure where all this cynicism is coming from
As to the timing looks suspicious comment, are you claiming that Dotty has moved the date of Christmas? Because whilst my memory does fail me at times I'm pretty sure that its always been the 25th December!
Razor Sharp
says...
10:43am Thu 27 Dec 12
garston tony wrote:I do not dispute that it is an annual occurrence and nor do I doubt that it is a worthy cause. However, I have an issue over the timing of the press release.
WatfordAlex wrote:It does happen every year and I believe pre dates Dotty herself too.
I'm fairly sure this happens every year, so not sure where all this cynicism is coming from
As to the timing looks suspicious comment, are you claiming that Dotty has moved the date of Christmas? Because whilst my memory does fail me at times I'm pretty sure that its always been the 25th December!
The timing of the press release (24th December 2012) just seems too close and convenient to the Farm Terrace decision of 21st December 2012.
In 2011, Dorothy's Christmas Card was reported in the WO on 12th December. In 2010, Dorothy's Christmas Card was reported in WO on 14th December. It was only in 2009, that it was reported on 21st December.
Had it been reported on or before 21st December, as in previous years, it probably wouldn't have received a positive spin since it pre-dated the unpopular Farm Terrace decision or was on the same day.
I can imagine the date of the press release being moved for spin purposes. That would have been a valid consideration if I were her PR consultant, especially if the consultation on Farm Terrace was no more than an exercise in democracy, with the decision already reached.
As I stated earlier, timing in politics is everything.
clarkie750
says...
2:37pm Thu 27 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
3:28pm Thu 27 Dec 12
clarkie750 wrote:Still the same retort ....... And no sign of a riposte. Perhaps there isn't one in your arsenal. The facts speak for themselves.
Yes Razor Sharp you are, as I said, mean spirited and bigoted. Every one of your posts confirms it.
clarkie750
says...
8:17pm Thu 27 Dec 12
All the facts put together in four sentences.
Deal with it.
Razor Sharp
says...
10:02pm Thu 27 Dec 12
The press timing is still suspicious and you have no substantive riposte in relation to the timing, when compared to previous years ... still attempting a riposte where one does not exist.
The allotment decision was unjust, the timing of the press release for the Christmas Card suspicious and your response lacks conviction.
garston tony
says...
7:56am Fri 28 Dec 12
Grown up people can appreciate a good cause and not change their minds about un related issues.
Razor Sharp
says...
8:47am Fri 28 Dec 12
garston tony wrote:Obviously there are two sides to every story, but I find it hard to believe that a well-oiled PR/Marketing machine would not have kept tight controls over the timing of the press release, especially if the decision over the allotments had already been reached.
When else is the new supposed to be released? July, October, the next Jubilee year? Its going to be in December be it in the second week or the third week, and how do you know it wasn’t released earlier and it’s the WO that have only just released the news? Seriously fine you have a gripe against Dotty but don’t get all paranoid about everything and the main point is that its you that has politicised this story not WBC. Seriously, do you really think people who know about the allotment decision will suddenly change their mind about the council/Dotty because they have raised all this money for good causes?
Grown up people can appreciate a good cause and not change their minds about un related issues.
People familiar with the allotment decision are not likely to change their minds over this, but how many have paid attention to the outcome of that decision?
Do you really believe that the WO independently decides on press release timing for Dorothy stories? I think not. If it were a national newspaper, the position is likely to be different, but a local newspaper is not likely to have that kind of editorial control or independence.
garston tony
says...
9:31am Fri 28 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
10:39am Fri 28 Dec 12
Had we been talking solely about hardcopies, then there might have been some mileage on the point of print runs. Here, we're also factoring in online publications, which is my only focus.
garston tony
says...
12:32pm Fri 28 Dec 12
clarkie750
says...
2:21pm Fri 28 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
2:50pm Fri 28 Dec 12
clarkie750 wrote:I see you're making good use of 'copy and paste'.
Razor Sharp you are wrong about what goes online. There seems to be little rhyme nor reason as to when things appear. The real problem is that you want to believe something and that confirms you as mean spirited and bigoted. I think I'll add pathetic to that list.
I disagree with you. I have dealt with the Watford Observer previously, albeit as an individual.
I would expect there to be a working understanding between senior public office holders and the local press and the timing of press releases. Not quite on par with the Royals and national press, but an understanding of sorts, nevertheless.
Stories are uploaded on a daily basis to the website. Given that some stories are fairly trivial, it is safe to assert that lack of space is not an issue for WO.
Add what you like to your list of insults, comments etc., it doesn't change the position.
I am still awaiting a rebuttal or riposte. All I have received from you is a list of personal insults, which do not qualify in this context. Nice try, but no medal.
Razor Sharp
says...
2:55pm Fri 28 Dec 12
garston tony wrote:Valid point, but not relevant here, since the story was uploaded on Monday 24 December 2012. I wasn't aware that there was a Monday edition of the WO.
Yes, and some news is held back for the printed edition. If it was all put online their sales would drop and theyd go out of business
clarkie750
says...
6:28pm Fri 28 Dec 12
I'm not sure what you mean by a riposte. You have been comprehensively out argued by a number of others, as well as myself. Still somebody who is as mean spirited and bigoted as you would not be able to own up to it.
Razor Sharp
says...
6:39pm Fri 28 Dec 12
clarkie750 wrote:Good try, but still no goal.
Razor Sharp, you appear to know nothing about the press. I'll give you an example of a story which is not new or trivial but has only just appeared on this website. The 'news' about the service charges for tenants of the housing trust is certainly not trivial and is not very recent at all.
I'm not sure what you mean by a riposte. You have been comprehensively out argued by a number of others, as well as myself. Still somebody who is as mean spirited and bigoted as you would not be able to own up to it.
Razor Sharp
says...
7:00pm Fri 28 Dec 12
Razor Sharp wrote:Read my posts carefully rather than reading them to suit your limited responses. I stated that "some stories are fairly trivial". Your response does not rebut that statement.
clarkie750 wrote:Good try, but still no goal.
Razor Sharp, you appear to know nothing about the press. I'll give you an example of a story which is not new or trivial but has only just appeared on this website. The 'news' about the service charges for tenants of the housing trust is certainly not trivial and is not very recent at all.
I'm not sure what you mean by a riposte. You have been comprehensively out argued by a number of others, as well as myself. Still somebody who is as mean spirited and bigoted as you would not be able to own up to it.
Again, a strategy to evoke reader emotion, but has no substance as a response to my earlier statement. Yet another weak diversionary tactic.
Even the example you gave, which is not relevant here, shows the Liberals being attacked from a number of posters. Perhaps you should go in there and try to rescue your team mates, if you're 'man enough'.
linney
says...
2:31am Sat 29 Dec 12
It's Christmas and it's a card raising funds for charity. Shame some people are so mean spirited and bigoted not to welcome this as good news.”
That says it all really. Everyone else just seems to want to be seen to be giving an opinion, crass or otherwise, moving goalposts and trying to change opinions. Sad really. And pointless.
bluesky1
says...
9:27am Sat 29 Dec 12
I remember reading a similar story around the same time last year.
Razor Sharp (Councillor Meerabux) you should know better.
Razor Sharp
says...
11:18am Sat 29 Dec 12
bluesky1 wrote:And we're back to the guessing game with bluesky1(Councillor Steve Johnson)? The last Conservative Councillor standing ..... Just.
I am surprised at the attitude of many contributors. £4,000 to local charities is a good story just before Christmas. What better time could have been found to release the story?
I remember reading a similar story around the same time last year.
Razor Sharp (Councillor Meerabux) you should know better.
As I have said elsewhere, please report me to Standards if you think I'm Malcolm.
Read my posts. The charitable contribution is good, but the timing of the press release is suspicious.
I have a point of view, as do others. I am not shifting from that position.
Razor Sharp
says...
11:25am Sat 29 Dec 12
Fight me on the points I have raised, as opposed to pulling a Noddy Holder - "it's Christmas". Prove me wrong on the timing of the press release.
Razor Sharp
says...
11:35am Sat 29 Dec 12
Why didn't you defend your Liberal colleagues in the posts for "Watford Community Housing Trust under fire for service charge plans"? You would have been beaten to a pulp over there. That's perhaps why you're staying here and pulling a Noddy Holder and copying and pasting responses.
LSC
says...
1:45pm Sat 29 Dec 12
I think it is good that some money was raised for charity.
I think it is obvious that anyone in the public eye that courts public approval would release that to the press.
My christmas cards didn't raise a penny. Because I didn't send any. Nothing to do with my religious beliefs (I enjoy the holiday and atmosphere as much as anyone) but because all year long people bang on about the environment.
I cannot, for the life of me, think of anything more wasteful than an inked picture on a piece of card with my name on it. After a couple of weeks this is then thrown away or 'recycled' (Heavily bleached in a massive factory run on coal/oil/gas and turned into inferior card).
If I am truly thinking of someone at christmas, I'll pop round and say hello, or give them a ring. If I send you a piece of paper with my name on it, I'm probably working from a list and not thinking of you at all, and I'm certainly not thinking of the planet.
Mohandas
says...
3:28pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Next match Tue 1 Jan 2013
Watford v Charlton 13:00 Then u might have a tiny idea of how to develop a campaign strategy.
Sanity 750
says...
3:34pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
4:19pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Sanity 750 wrote:Malcolm must be pleased with so many mentions of his name.
Mohandas (Councillor Meerabux) you are very sad.
You're doing a good job of reminding the public that he's still out there. I'm sure he would thank you for kick-starting his campaign as an Independent. Kudos to bluesky1 as well. Please keep calling me Malcolm. I'll take it as a compliment. Quite happy to be mistaken for him in cyberspace. No chance in real life.
So, are you going to add to this discussion or are you going to adopt clarkie750's approach?
Mohandas
says...
4:35pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Sanity 750
says...
4:45pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Sanity 750
says...
4:52pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
5:02pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Your responses are akin to the Bill Murray movie Groundhog Day, but at least there he learnt something along the way. Your comments are reminiscent of a child of 14; but that's the reading age of most readers of the Sun, so it doesn't surprise me.
Anything to add to the debate here, or do you just want to come in with your one liners, most of which are obsessed with calling me Malcolm.
Razor Sharp
says...
5:03pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Sanity 750 wrote:In real terms, you already are!
Mohandas (Malcolm) I suppose in football terms you would be known as a Conservative reject.
mkhan1
says...
7:49pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
8:51pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:Perhaps this is something you should address to Malcolm directly, mkhan1/Sanity750/And
Malcolm you obviously haven't come to terms with the fact that no one in the party likes you, and you kicked off at the AGM wanting to be chairman and leader as well as mayor and County councillor. I wouldn't trust you with my pet tadpole. Now get off your ipad like a good boy and do what you get paid for and make good use of your time instead of having multiple personality syndrome on here. X
rew Mortimer. I am sure you have his contact details, so contact him.
What has this to do with me?
As far as the tadpole goes, that's probably all the RSPCA allowed you take responsibility for.
You seem to be the one with a virtual identity crisis and intellectual deficit.
The more you respond, the more you expose your lack of credibility and child-like retorts. Perhaps this is a conversation you should have in the sand pit at the local children's nursery with Malcolm.
You'll have to talk to him to find out whether he's up for such a meeting. After all, he might ask to be Head Milk Monitor, or Junior Prefect or even Head Master.
Instead of an AGM there would be an official playground meeting. Do you want to Chair the meeting or would bluesky1 be charing?
You do make me laugh. LOL!!!
If I were Malcolm, do you think I would be sitting on the naughty step crying because allegedly no one in the Party of One Councillor likes me? I doubt it.
As for me, I haven't been a "good boy" for a long time. What are you going to do if I continue posting, come over here and smack me? That would be interesting. Although I suspect you might enjoy it a little too much.
And ....... what has this to do with the earlier discussion?
If you want to attack Malcolm, at least do so with something credible, tangible and sustainable rather than intellectually redundant grunts and posturing (careful, you might displace a hip, then where would the WCA Football Team be?)
Of course, you could be a double agent, working for another party, seeking to discredit the WCA. If that is the case, then you have done exceedingly well 'OLD BOY!"
Razor Sharp
says...
8:53pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:One thing has been bugging me ...... is the 'X' your anonymous signature or is it a kiss? Difficult to tell these days, especially post-Christmas.
Malcolm you obviously haven't come to terms with the fact that no one in the party likes you, and you kicked off at the AGM wanting to be chairman and leader as well as mayor and County councillor. I wouldn't trust you with my pet tadpole. Now get off your ipad like a good boy and do what you get paid for and make good use of your time instead of having multiple personality syndrome on here. X
mkhan1
says...
9:45pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Now go save some allotments and stop humiliating yourself, your becoming a laughing stock !
mkhan1
says...
9:47pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1
says...
9:49pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Razor Sharp
says...
10:11pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:So I take it the 'X' wasn't a kiss ..... never mind.
Malcolm not only do you bite too much but you get vicious and nasty in your posts, and incoherently ramble. Why also the need to insult someones personal intellect? Did the truth hurt? If you want my advice stay off the computer, and earn your allowance instead of pretending to be different people and in order to keep up this pretense changing your writing and literary style i.e writing in text language and using abbreviations (The standard of teachers nowadays is shocking). By the way if your not Malcolm why do you keep on responding, if you note my last comment I didn't aim it at a poster or quote a particular poster.
Now go save some allotments and stop humiliating yourself, your becoming a laughing stock !
You already are a laughing stock.
I have no issues with MY intellect. To quote something in language you might understand, "Stupid is as stupid does", Forrest Gump.
Respond in a sensible manner and I might reciprocate, depending on which log-in name you are adopting.
I can't stand text language and find it disrespectful, perhaps that's why Mohandas likes to use it when responding to you or perhaps he just can't be bothered typing his responses to you.
The standard of teachers was probably shocking in your day, which would account for your limited intellect and poor argument style. As I stated, "Stupid is as stupid does".
"Why do I keep responding?" Because I can and at the moment, Lord of the Rings 3 seems slow, so I guess you are my 'Comedy Channel' of sorts, albeit in the form of Bernard Manning .... still ..... on this site, 'beggars can't be choosers'.
Anyway, the film's getting interesting, so catch you later Smeagol, probably after the film.
XOXO
There you go, some hugs and kisses for you ....... enjoy or share them with your pseudonyms.
Razor Sharp
says...
10:19pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:I don't think Malcolm's going to like that, nor his wife. I can't comment on whether he has a lover. Good luck to him if he has both. It didn't do the LibDems any harm as far as I can recall.
I'm actually starting to think your Malcolms wife or lover............
I never knew he had such sex appeal, Perhaps you know something I don't.
Well Sanity750/mkhan1, good to see you have no issues with your virtual sexual orientation. Are you going to come out to WCA? It might be good for your political standing.
Razor Sharp
says...
10:23pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:I didn't realise you had hidden feelings for Malcom. That explains a lot about your jealous postings. You were obviously projecting.
Oh by the way it was a kiss X
Razor Sharp
says...
10:29pm Sat 29 Dec 12
mkhan1 wrote:Meet me outside G.A.Y., off Tottenham Court Road after you've been to a football match with Mohandas. I'll ask the bouncer there to hook you up with someone inside, then I'll go off to dinner with my friends.
Oh by the way it was a kiss X
So good of you to come out on this site.
mkhan1
says...
11:18pm Sat 29 Dec 12
By the way what will you do when you're defeated in a couple of years time when the Liberals walk into your seat with a paper candidate, because everyone knows that not only are you a poor Councillor, but you are also disturbed!!!
mkhan1
says...
11:20pm Sat 29 Dec 12
Razor Sharp wrote:Your problem is that you assume, like you have just made the assumption that I am male !!!!
mkhan1 wrote:Meet me outside G.A.Y., off Tottenham Court Road after you've been to a football match with Mohandas. I'll ask the bouncer there to hook you up with someone inside, then I'll go off to dinner with my friends.
Oh by the way it was a kiss X
So good of you to come out on this site.
Razor Sharp
says...
12:38am Sun 30 Dec 12
It's now getting repetitive and boring, a lot like you, and lacks imagination, again, a lot like you.
It got interesting for a bit when you 'came out', but now you profess to change sex, as well as race. Incidentally, if you considered me to be Malcolm's wife, and you are female, then that implies that you are bi-curious or have lesbian tendencies. You can't have it every which way - no strategy, just basic reactive on-the-fly tactics.
As for Malcolm's future, that is no concern of mine, so I cannot comment.
Obviously you have lost all hope in your WCA, if you believe a Liberal paper candidate will step into Malcolm's seat. Again, a slap dash argument.
With such lack of coherent thinking, no long-game or strategy and reactive tactics on-the-fly, I am not surprised the residents dumped you as a Councillor.
You can't even decide on a consistent log-in name, change race and then sex as you please, and then you ditch WCA for the Liberals. For all intents and purposes, it appears you are confused not just with you identity, but your feelings, race, sex and your political allegiance.
Am I annoyed? - no.
I feel sorry for you having such a limited game plan. If I were you, I would go and have lunch with clarkie750 and bluesky1 and, of course, yourself (Sanity750). At least you would be on par with each other intellectually.
It's too easy cutting you down. Up your game, change your login name and come back for another round, you might get lucky.
Razor Sharp
says...
1:06am Sun 30 Dec 12
I'll give you a virtual pass, you can be an intellectual tourist for a day.
Razor Sharp
says...
9:06am Sun 30 Dec 12
From now on I will refer to Sanity750/mkhan1 as Smeagol from Lord of the Rings and bluesky1 as Peter Griffin from Family Guy. This sums up their personalities and attitude. One is completely obsessed and repetitive ("my precious", which in this context translates to Malcolm) and the other says stupid one liners and loses steam to continue, a lot like Peter Griffin.
This thread is going to be dead by Monday anyway, so Smeagol and Peter Griffin make the best of it while you can ........ If you can. Let's see if both of you can up your game or at least try.
So far Smeagol has come out as a bi-curious, gay-lesbian, bi-racial, intellectually challenged bipolar individual. Who would have thought it! Come on Peter Griffin, top your colleague ...... Not easy to do, I know, but I'm sure you can find some intellectual stretch.
I'm going to be getting on with client work today, but will dip in and out to keep you company and myself amused. Last day of this thread, make the most of it.
garston tony
says...
9:02am Mon 31 Dec 12
Razor Sharp wrote:No there isnt a Monday edition, but there was one the previous Friday and maybe that is when they printed the press release from the Council.
garston tony wrote: Yes, and some news is held back for the printed edition. If it was all put online their sales would drop and theyd go out of businessValid point, but not relevant here, since the story was uploaded on Monday 24 December 2012. I wasn't aware that there was a Monday edition of the WO.
Its not an unreasonable assumption that they make most of their sales the Friday and then over the weekend and therefore wait till the Monday or later before putting stories that are in the print edition online.That sounds like common sense to me
Razor Sharp
says...
11:19am Mon 31 Dec 12
garston tony wrote:If the press release was in the Friday edition, which would have been the same day as the decision then your point is valid.
Razor Sharp wrote:No there isnt a Monday edition, but there was one the previous Friday and maybe that is when they printed the press release from the Council.
garston tony wrote: Yes, and some news is held back for the printed edition. If it was all put online their sales would drop and theyd go out of businessValid point, but not relevant here, since the story was uploaded on Monday 24 December 2012. I wasn't aware that there was a Monday edition of the WO.
Its not an unreasonable assumption that they make most of their sales the Friday and then over the weekend and therefore wait till the Monday or later before putting stories that are in the print edition online.That sounds like common sense to me
Razor Sharp says...
2:07pm Mon 24 Dec 12
Don't believe the hype!