Debt charity celebrates a year in Watford

3:00pm Saturday 19th January 2013 in News Photograph of the Author By Ben Endley, Senior reporter

A Christian debt charity has just marked a year of helping people in the Watford area.

Christians Against Poverty (CAP) launched the centre in Greycaine Road in Watford January 2012, in partnership with SoulSurvivorChurchand.

Centre manager, Liz Potter said: “We have so much to celebrate today. Many of the clients said they felt there was no way out and their situation was hopeless before they called for help, but now say there is definitely a way through and it’s a massive relief.”

Comments(27)

theturpster says...
5:48pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Unfortunately, capitalism and consumerism has wired human brains to judge people on monetary value. We hate people who are too rich or look down on those who have nothing and see them as a drain on society.

Everything seems to be measured on cost. I can't fathom out when this actually happened, possibly in the late eighties it reared its ugly head.

So well done those who are involved!

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LSC says...
9:32pm Sat 19 Jan 13

I know people will assume I am just religion bashing, but I am not. I'm absolutely sure these people work very hard, do a good job and wouldn't turn anyone away.
But serious question, why the christian title?
What is the 'gain' to what they do in that?

If everyone who worked there was under 5 feet tall, would you name it 'Short People Against Poverty'? If you did so, is there not a danger that excellent charity workers who are 6'8" might not feel it is a good place for them to volunteer or work? That would surely be to the charity's loss, the tall person's loss and the people who need help's loss.

How can that be a good thing?

I will take help if I need it from anyone of any religion, because I just see them as people with skills and specialist knowledge. But surely there are people of different faiths who might not feel it appropriate to approach this organisation because of the title.

How might an imam or rabbi react to find a family in his congregation has been accepting charity from christians, and that help was only given because the givers are christians? It would surely go against their teachings that theirs is the correct religion and their god will provide.

Why take the that risk with the title of the charity if all you want to do is help people?

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John Dowdle says...
7:06am Sun 20 Jan 13

Like LSC, I too wonder about why these people feel a need to apply a religious label to their service?
Similar groups are also involved in the provision of food banks.
It seems that wherever poverty and need are to be found, we find these proselytizers are only too ready to push themselves forward to capitalise on the unfortunate circumstances of others.
They may claim that they are doing this as a result of their natural human concern for others but - frankly - I do not believe them.
They use poverty as a potential recruitment tool to get unfortunate people to sign up to their product - a religious product in this case.
Citizens Advice provide a far better service but without any religious strings attached.
These Soul Survivor people should be supporting Citizens Advice if they are really concerned about assisting people with debt problems.
I find it despicable that people with problems are being exploited at a time of their greatest need.

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theturpster says...
8:58am Sun 20 Jan 13

Sitting on the fence as agnostic, I would say it maybe founded from a group of people from a church lol. They might have used short people within their moniker but the odds of them varying in height may vary drastically, putting paid to their best laid plans :D

Christian Aid and Muslim aid have been around for years, proven to have done good work for all regardless of beliefs.

I feel it's only a title and maybe thinking there's an ulterior motive behind it, may seem a little paranoid?

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John Dowdle says...
9:42am Sun 20 Jan 13

There was a recent TV programme about a food bank in which it became apparent that the organisers were using it to recruit food-poor people into their evangelising church.
Mind you, it cuts both ways: some of the people they were attempting to exploit were actually exploiting the amateurs at the food bank.
We are supposed to live in a modern welfare state, where incomes should be sufficient to ensure that no one should have to live under the shadow of poverty, debt or hunger.
Or is this what the government considers to be a Big Society?

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WatfordAlex says...
12:13pm Sun 20 Jan 13

"..incomes should be sufficient to ensure that no one should have to live under the shadow of poverty, debt or hunger."

The group shouldn't need to exist. That they do, is depressing. However, I suspect that most people are just happy that these people are willing to do so much to help people. Paranoid ranting about supposedly cult like behavior reveals more about the prejudices of the writer, than about anything else.

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LSC says...
12:15pm Sun 20 Jan 13

I don't think it is paranoid. If I started a charity called 'People Who Own Fords Against Genocide', I would be considered a little odd.
Everyone might agree with my principals about the dislike of genocide, but surely someone who owns a Vauxhall is going to feel excluded or unwelcome by my wording before they think about joining or supporting me. I therefore potentially alienate 90% of the population before I even start.

Why would I do that unless I had an ulterior motive? Could it be I own a Ford dealership and now have a nice database of potential customers to sell spare parts to?

How sincere is my stance on genocide then?

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theturpster says...
12:25pm Sun 20 Jan 13

LSC wrote:
I don't think it is paranoid. If I started a charity called 'People Who Own Fords Against Genocide', I would be considered a little odd.
Everyone might agree with my principals about the dislike of genocide, but surely someone who owns a Vauxhall is going to feel excluded or unwelcome by my wording before they think about joining or supporting me. I therefore potentially alienate 90% of the population before I even start.

Why would I do that unless I had an ulterior motive? Could it be I own a Ford dealership and now have a nice database of potential customers to sell spare parts to?

How sincere is my stance on genocide then?
Lol, i could feel your blood boiling from here before your first posting...

It's a crazy world LSC, a huge drive from people screaming "equal opportunities" and those screaming "not everyone is equal". There is always going to be a selection process in life, winners and losers, it gives me a bloody headache trying to keep up with it all. Decided that life is too short to worry or get outraged by it all - sends you to an early grave.

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LSC says...
12:47pm Sun 20 Jan 13

Well, you aren't wrong there, theturpster.
But my blood isn't really boiling. Simmering gently, perhaps.
My question still stands; why use christian in the title when religion has nothing whatsoever to do with sorting out debt? Unless of course their only advice is 'Pray for money'.

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Mike Ribble says...
1:18pm Sun 20 Jan 13

It is clear from a visit to their website that Soul Survivor is an evangelical church. They make no secret of their desire to reach out to the wider community with the message of the Christian gospel. But they do so because their faith requires it. Their faith also requires them to assist others in charitable ways. They say
' We choose to follow the biblical commands to care for the poor, the broken, the marginalized and the dispossessed of Watford, and to stand for justice as an expression of the Kingdom of God. We will not focus solely on our needs as a church body but on the real and felt needs of the community of Watford.'
CAP is only one of various projects in this vein which are not principally aimed at recruitment but rather at doing 'God's work'.
Using the word 'Christian' in the title helps to make their motivation clear and provides an instant impression of their ethos.
All the same, as other posters have suggested, although CAP visits it's clients in their homes it's hard to imagine they can compete with the resources and track record of the CAB in money advice work.

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LSC says...
4:22pm Sun 20 Jan 13

But Mike, it's not 'god's work'. I don't refuse to help an old lady across the street because I'm not a christian, and only christians do that sort of thing.

Muslims, hindus, maoists, bhuddists, ninjas, jedies, Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Trojans, Aztecs.... they all believe different things and in different gods. But they all helped old ladies across the street. So the 'god' part is completely redundant to charity.

It is humanity that makes you help another person in need. If you need to be told to do so by some sky monster or else you wouldn't do it, I'd worry about who you really are.

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WatfordAlex says...
7:27pm Sun 20 Jan 13

There isn't really anything worth adding to what Mike has said. They are motivated by their christian faith and characterise their work as such. As said before, Christians don't have a monopoly on doing good things, but the content of the christian message is one of loving your neighbor etc...and unsurprisingly lots of charitable stuff is down to 'god botherers'.

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LSC says...
12:18am Mon 21 Jan 13

WatfordAlex wrote:
There isn't really anything worth adding to what Mike has said. They are motivated by their christian faith and characterise their work as such. As said before, Christians don't have a monopoly on doing good things, but the content of the christian message is one of loving your neighbor etc...and unsurprisingly lots of charitable stuff is down to 'god botherers'.
Well I feel sorry for them. To need some outside influence just to be nice to people must be an experience.
Not one I have encountered. I tend to be nice to people because I want to be. No deals about eternal life, or forgiveness, or 42 virgins, or coming back as a grasshopper with enlightenment.

I just look out for people. No reward in heaven. No virgins. No coming back as a slug. I just do it.

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garston tony says...
10:14am Mon 21 Jan 13

LSC to claim that Christians need an outside influence in order to do good is pathetic, and so are you and your ilk taking every single opportunity to have a go. I'm sure most Christians would be as caring etc if they werent people of faith, it may be Jesus's message that we should help those around us but we do it because we want to not because we are told to.

But why on earth NOT have the Christian in the title? There is nothing to be ashamed of at all in proclaiming yourself as such and if anything it gives out a message that assistance will be given regardless of who you are and your beliefs. I would bet my house, you're THAT PREDICTABLE LSC, that if this was a story about a charity that had not revealed itself to be Christian based you would be moaning to the moon and back about lack of transparency, so please get that idiotic chip of your shoulder! Every time you have a go for no reason just makes you look stupid and diminishes any valid points you may actually make - which is none in this particular case.

JD what I find despicable is people who are ignorant and biased and judgemental as you are when it comes to faith using every single opportunity given to them to spout their vile rubbish.

Lets look at the facts here, people of faith run charity to help those in need v. two people of no faith attacking them for that. That says all that you need to know really doesn’t it

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LSC says...
2:12pm Mon 21 Jan 13

For goodness sake Tony, calm down. I made my point very clear. I was asking why they use christian in the the title when they know for an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY it will exclude some people from either coming to them FOR help, or coming to them TO help.

As I said above, if you substitute 'christian' for 'Ford Owners' people would wonder what is going on. If you substituted it for 'White People' you'd probably go to prison.
I'm purely asking what they gain as a charity by putting off half the population from coming to them?

WHY DO THAT?

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garston tony says...
12:52pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Including the word Christian actually shows and means that they encompass everyone and that no one is excluded from their assistance. If people are 'excluded' then that is a self inflicted personal individuals decision (probably due to their own personal bias, prejudice and ignorance - the exact same traits you are showing in fact), not that of the charities.

Once again I'd point out if their Christian background was hidden you'd be jumping up and down even more and making claims about hidden agendas and whatever else your furtive but silly imagination could come up with.

Your only real point is that you wish to use this article as a means to show us all the massive chip on your shoulder no matter how ridiculous the premise for it.

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John Dowdle says...
1:12pm Tue 22 Jan 13

In our modern day society - the world's sixth largest economy - services like these are provided by organisations like Citizens Advice. People with debt problems are also able to access advice at Watford Council too.
This religiously-motivate
d service is not necessary and they should refer any enquiries on to Citizens Advice, who are far better equipped to assist people with debt problems than anyone else.
Unless, of course, they have an alternative ulterior motive?

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garston tony says...
4:07pm Tue 22 Jan 13

JD the motivation is to help those in need, end of.

The fact is that places like the CAB are run ragged at the best of times and these arent the best of times so there is a demand/need for other organisations to be there to help those who need it. This particular charity is not the only one doing what it does by a long stretch and you're on a different planet if your advise is just to pass things over to the CAB (who already cant cope with demand for their services).

And nothing against the CAB (they are an invaluable resource who should be given every support they need) but they are also staffed by and large by volunteers with no particular background or knowledge in whatever advise they are giving out be it debt or other. As such they are not actually any better equipped to assist with people's debt problems than anyone else.

I would stress I am not knocking the CAB, they do provide a wonderful service. I'm just pointing out that there are also other voluntary organisations who can and do provide equally good support and assistance. Such as this debt charity some are insistent on attacking due to their own personal problems.

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LSC says...
4:41pm Tue 22 Jan 13

You honestly believe that Tony? That using the word christian actually shows they are open to everyone?
The thing here is debt. What the crivens has religion got to do with owing on a credit card?

I, for one, would resist asking them for help because of the title. Somewhere along the line, I'm going to get preached at. FOR SURE. I don't want that, I want to know how to pay my mortgage and I don't give a fig what the baby jeebus has to say about it.

To my knowledge, jesus never had a Barclaycard or even a mortgage. But it was all right for him, when hungry he could feed up to 5,000. I don't have that luxury and he is conveniently dead (twice) so isn't around to help.
Presumably he could be if your god cared in the slightest, but since manifesting himself as a talking donkey 8,000 years ago he's been a bit quiet.

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Mike Ribble says...
5:02pm Tue 22 Jan 13

The CAP web-site raises the faith issue that has been exercising LSC with this question:

'How does your Christian ethos affect your service?'

Their answer:

'As a Christian organisation, our faith is our motivation. Our Debt Coaches may offer prayer and discuss issues of faith with clients if they are interested. However, their response in no way affects the service offered and the choice of the client is always fully respected.'

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John Dowdle says...
10:13pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Mike: Slam dunk! Says it all.

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Razor Sharp says...
11:13pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Why not get to that point sooner!

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LSC says...
11:59pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Yes, thank you Mike. A recruitment agency. Nothing more, nothing less, and preying on the vulnerable when they are at their lowest ebb.

"Debt Coaches may offer prayer and discuss issues of faith with clients if they are interested."

Well, they aren't. They want to know how to pay the bills and not become homeless where the New Hope Trust will pray for them instead, as well as trying to convert them.

This is not charity, and these are not charities. They want payback.

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LSC says...
12:06am Wed 23 Jan 13

And as some of you are aware; I run a charity. I know a lot about it.
There is a world of difference between helping people because you want to and helping people in order to impose your point of view without paying tax.

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WatfordAlex says...
8:05pm Wed 23 Jan 13

Tony has dealt comprehensively with this non-issue, but just to add: the group clearly offer help to anyone. The only people likely to be put off using their service are militant atheists like LSC (who only represent a tiny proportion of the population; most agnostics/atheists are much more chilled out).

The website says it all. These people are inspired by their faith to go out and voluntarily help people (something that only the most swivel eyed atheist evangelicals would have a problem with).

It's not a tax dodge = evidence?!

They offer to pray etc only if the person they are helping asks them to; so it's by consent. It's charity, no better or worse than any other.

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John Dowdle says...
12:27am Thu 24 Jan 13

I am afraid Alex is parading his lack of understanding in public. The results of the most recent census survey revealed that a minimum of 25% or one in four in Britain described themselves as having no religion.
Clearly, this group - at the very least - would almost certainly be put off by offers to pray over their debt problems - unless they are really desperate, of course; in which case, they may well go "through the motions" to gain the help they need. It is somewhat similar to the lengths some parents will go to to get their children into sought-after schools.
The sole reason this group exists is to exploit poor people by using their debt problems as a means to access them and pressurise them into manifesting pseudo-religious beliefs.
Ultimately, they are part of the business sector but with one principal difference: religious businesses all are able to exploit unfair tax advantages on the basis of their "charitable" activities.
All round the world, these religious organisations receive multi-billion - if not multi-trillion - tax breaks, which provide them with an unfair economic advantage over other commercial organisations.
Saying that people experiencing debt problems will consent to joining in prayer is one of the most ludicrous statements I can recall reading in these commentary columns.
It is like offering starving people food and - at the same time - offering to pray with them on the basis of their "consent". What else can anyone expect a starving or debt-ridden person to do who is in desperate need?
Frankly, the behaviour of these parasitic "charities" is stomach turning and disgusting.
As LSC has said, there are charities and there are charities. Some are real; others masquerade as ones.

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LSC says...
2:07am Thu 24 Jan 13

How very well said John. I'm sad Alex calls me militant; I might be outspoken, but I do not see me as militant. Calling a spade a spade never used to be a problem.

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