Farm Terrace Allotment plans 'absolutely crucial' says MP (From Watford Observer)

"He added: "As soon as there are proposals I will be pushing for this. I am obsessed with this, I am going to make sure the hospital will be done. I am a man possessed.""

I thought he was obsessed with playing at being The Fat Controller? If it wasn't a dangerous stance to take, I simply couldn't take this man seriously. He's a fool, an out of touch fool. Or if he's not a fool, his speeches and actions are foolish.

Politican's need to keep off the amyl-nitrate and understand that WE are the electorate and THEY act on OUR behalf, not the tail wagging the dog.

The comments are of that of a self centred character who is only concerned about having his own snout in the trough and to hell with everyone else, the true colours of a modern day politician.

@Andrew. Woah. Harsh, but true. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I’m just wondering that if the allotments are being asked to pay for the Health Campus piper do they get to call the tune they want.

Mohandas wrote:
I’m just wondering that if the allotments are being asked to pay for the Health Campus piper do they get to call the tune they want.

No need. The rats are all following the developers and dancing to their tune. This is getting dangerously close to slander!

Time to stop digging for carrots folks and start digging foundations for some nice new houses and hospital facilities. Roll on the bulldozers @savewatfordhealthca
mpus

TRT wrote:
@Andrew. Woah. Harsh, but true. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Sorry bud, reading harrington's comments (I will fight fire with fire here and will not address him with his first name of even capitalise his surname - just to match the contempt), pushed me over the edge ;-)

Rich by name, rich by nature

HE relies upon what he has been told by the Mayor being the truth.

Hahahahahahahhahahah
haahhahahahhahaaaaaa

Richard Harrington, just so you know - I have personally put a lot of effort into my allotment.

>Harry Caine says...
5:52pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Rich by name, rich by nature<

I am not sure I understand that comment. As a matter of interest, Richard Harrington's real name is not Harrington at all, though I do happen to know what he was born as. Still, Loony Leftie Harry never misses an opportunity to fight the tired old outdated class war. Anyone who's a Tory MP must be rich, right? As it happens, Harrington's father was a market stall holder in Leeds.

I wonder how poor the allotment tenants are? I suspect not very, since it tends to be a hobby rather than a matter of growing vegetables for necessity as it once was during WWII.

Of course Harrington doesn't care about the allotments! He actually lives in North London, and having once been Tory Party treasurer, is now the Vice Chairman of that same party whose main aim is to privatise the NHS. This development will make it more attractive to sell off Watford Hospital to the private sector, if they get an overall majority in 2015. He doesn't care about the "real" Watford people.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;Harry Caine says...
5:52pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Rich by name, rich by nature&lt;

I am not sure I understand that comment. As a matter of interest, Richard Harrington's real name is not Harrington at all, though I do happen to know what he was born as. Still, Loony Leftie Harry never misses an opportunity to fight the tired old outdated class war. Anyone who's a Tory MP must be rich, right? As it happens, Harrington's father was a market stall holder in Leeds.

I wonder how poor the allotment tenants are? I suspect not very, since it tends to be a hobby rather than a matter of growing vegetables for necessity as it once was during WWII.

Hi Roy,

Just to let you know that this is not a hobby. I have been on Farm Terrace for a number of years, live on the national average wage in West Watford, pay my mortgage and support my children whilst saving on my food bill by growing veg and fruit. Please don't start making sweeping statements just like the one that upset you about Mr Harrington. Once these homes are built Vicarage Ward will sit at 85% density (it is 75% at the moment - one of the highest in the country). I'm not sure where you live but I can't see much green from my window and the reason these allotments have been here for 115 years is because there is a demand due to West Watford having a large proportion of terrace housing stock. Please state facts. I have.

I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

I understand your concern, of course.

But I find it hard to believe that in 2013 growing one's own vegetables on an allotment is a high priority for survival. My mum and dad in the 1940s had a smallholding in the Yorkshire Pennines (basically a couple of fields on a hillside) and they kept a few cows, pigs, geese and hens and grew tomatoes and blackberries and a few other things in a greenhouse. I was brought up there as a kid and have never forgotten it. We lived more or less on a shoestring and off the land, but, hey, times change. I think you have to ask yourself whether a hospital and homes for the majority are more important, whatever the circumstances.

I agree with the comment that the politicians should act on behalf of residents.
In my opinion, as a local resident and someone who uses the hospital, and who has friends locally who work there, that is what they are doing.

The chance of a new hospital and healthcare facilities don't come around very often, (and of course some areas lose theirs!). It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. So for the hundreds of thousands who use the hospital, it's a no-brainer.

Also the separate planned employment units at the site, which will lead to 1,600 new jobs - wouldn't go a miss locally either!!

Maceo &amp; Fred wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;Harry Caine says...
5:52pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Rich by name, rich by nature&lt;

I am not sure I understand that comment. As a matter of interest, Richard Harrington's real name is not Harrington at all, though I do happen to know what he was born as. Still, Loony Leftie Harry never misses an opportunity to fight the tired old outdated class war. Anyone who's a Tory MP must be rich, right? As it happens, Harrington's father was a market stall holder in Leeds.

I wonder how poor the allotment tenants are? I suspect not very, since it tends to be a hobby rather than a matter of growing vegetables for necessity as it once was during WWII.

Hi Roy,

Just to let you know that this is not a hobby. I have been on Farm Terrace for a number of years, live on the national average wage in West Watford, pay my mortgage and support my children whilst saving on my food bill by growing veg and fruit. Please don't start making sweeping statements just like the one that upset you about Mr Harrington. Once these homes are built Vicarage Ward will sit at 85% density (it is 75% at the moment - one of the highest in the country). I'm not sure where you live but I can't see much green from my window and the reason these allotments have been here for 115 years is because there is a demand due to West Watford having a large proportion of terrace housing stock. Please state facts. I have.

...I can see if you are one of the 65 allotment holders you might not agree with the scheme, but the facts are the plans have more green space, open to all, than currently.

I live in west Watford. There are other allotments here...(chester rd, brightwell and Holywell sites to name three) ... it has very good allotment provision.

Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

Then they should build a better hospital. But if they build it where it is now, it won't be better. It'll take 20 years of staged demolition and construction, clogged roads, mud everywhere, dust, failing systems... they could build one anew in a place better accessed from Hemel and St. Albans in under three years, cheaper and not upsetting the locals. Where? Well, how about Long Wood behind King's Langley? M25, A41, M1, and King's Langley railway station. I know it's green field, but if they can rip out the allotments...

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

The Scammell site and the Adventure playground which will be right next to the new station... rich pickings.

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

Dorothy Thornhill is an astute politician, who has managed to convince a lot of people, Tara1978 included, that it's a question of "either the allotments, or the hospital", when there is no such dilemma at all.
The Hospital Trust have said that the allotment land is not essential to their re-build, but it would be 'convenient' to have it if it's on offer. No, the plan is to build houses, many hundreds of them, across the whole "Health Campus", in order to make money for the developer, Kier, and Watford Council.
If Farm Terrace allotments are fair game, after existing for 116 years, then no allotments are safe. Indeed, no green space is safe any more.

Watford doesnt need 600 more homes, where are all the extra cars going to go?we cant make any of our existing roads bigger and traffic in and around town is already pretty awful. Alot of this town " need " for extra housing is summed up by welcome written in 14 languages outside, and things are'nt going to get better when romania join the eu! And before im branded a racist, it is simply a question of space, britian is an island and quite simply has not got the infastructure to cope with the mass immigration that we have seen since 1997.

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

And keeping both, which is perfectly possible, would be better still, I am sure you will agree.

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

How did you see the plans - they're meant to be secret!

pernix wrote:

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

Dorothy Thornhill is an astute politician, who has managed to convince a lot of people, Tara1978 included, that it's a question of &quot;either the allotments, or the hospital", when there is no such dilemma at all.
The Hospital Trust have said that the allotment land is not essential to their re-build, but it would be 'convenient' to have it if it's on offer. No, the plan is to build houses, many hundreds of them, across the whole "Health Campus", in order to make money for the developer, Kier, and Watford Council.
If Farm Terrace allotments are fair game, after existing for 116 years, then no allotments are safe. Indeed, no green space is safe any more.

My thoughts exactly.

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

Can you explain what is wrong with the present hospital and its location and how the plans for new one will remedy the faults you mentioned?
When you say all of us, what do you mean - the people who come from Hemel and far flung places in Nth West London, those who live in the congested streets of West Watford, the allotment holders?
Thirdly, this scheme is sold as a new hospital, so presumably it's going not going to be 'annexes'?
Lastly, let's have a bit of honesty, isn't it more of a high density housing scheme than about a 'new hospital'. But 'health campus' eases our environmental conscience as we destroy mother earth with concrete and pound Southern England into submission to house our growing population.

Mohandas (Councillor Meerabux) asks for a bit of honesty- well Councillor declare an interest in this story before you comment on it.

Councillor Meerabux is a member of the Major Projects Board overseeing the building of the Health Campus isn’t it totally inappropriate for him to Clandestinely comment in this way?

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;Harry Caine says...
5:52pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Rich by name, rich by nature&lt;

I am not sure I understand that comment. As a matter of interest, Richard Harrington's real name is not Harrington at all, though I do happen to know what he was born as. Still, Loony Leftie Harry never misses an opportunity to fight the tired old outdated class war. Anyone who's a Tory MP must be rich, right? As it happens, Harrington's father was a market stall holder in Leeds.

I wonder how poor the allotment tenants are? I suspect not very, since it tends to be a hobby rather than a matter of growing vegetables for necessity as it once was during WWII.

Roy at it again, I guess he can confirm whether Rich and his mate trousered £34 mill when the flogged off the timeshare outfit

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

I think the figure is 60 houses (not 120) and the hospital have also said they would like to use the allotment site for some of the new hospital buildings they want.

>>> What will stop them building another 120 houses on other allotments???

The Secretary of State. It doesn't get granted very often (so might not here??) And then a council has to create new allotment plots to compensate for any that are lost. (as WBC are proposing)

Poor old Harry! Envy is perhaps the worst of the Seven Deadly Sins and Harry, like all old-time socialists, is eaten up with envy and hatred for anyone who has a few bob more than him.

Actually, I am not that well versed in Harrington's business dealings, so I can't comment on them. But I would like to ask Harry how much his former leader, Tony Blair, has trousered since he gave up being prime minister? It's said to be many millions, not to mention the oodles of lolly earned by his pushy wife! And how much other Labour politicians have picked up by giving talks, writing articles, accepting fees to be on company boards, etc? And, of course, by fiddling their expenses.

It's not just Tory MPs who are rich! However, Harry's blind spot debars him from seeing this.

Isn't surprise that Richard is backing this.

After all, the Conservative has sold off more of our green space (parks, playing fields etc) to developers in their time in office in their first 2 & half years. Comparing to Labour when they was last in power. That's a lot of our land lost.

Bet Richard wouldn't like if parks in his neighbourhood in Hampstead was threaten to be developed on.

As it's not just the allotments that is under threat, its Oxhey & Riverside parks that is also under threat.

Harrington is the director of a property development company. You can look it up on Wikipedia, it's there in black and white. Not that one should distrust property developers of course, I mean, they're only a business trying to do business...

My understanding was that the original proposal for housing on the site was for just 300; somehow, the figure got bumped up to 600 on the developer's insistence. Is that not correct?
To be honest, I am in two minds over this proposed "upgrade", the details of which still remain unclear to me.
Are we getting a completely new hospital in the process of creating a health "campus" or not?
I think the extra land is now needed because the original scheme has become inflated by developer's demands and scheme organiser's aspirations having grown to convert the brown field (industrial) parts of the site into a new light industrial park for medically-related and health-related business activities.
My guess, for example - as it makes a certain amount of sense - is that retirement properties could be built near the hospital site as this means that in the event of medical emergencies, it is not far for elderly people to have to travel for treatment.
I once saw a similar set up with a Blue Cross hospital in North West London, where the retirement apartments were in the same grounds as the hospital.
I think we all need much more information on which to base opinions and make our own decisions about this scheme.
My one concern is what we have just seen in South East London, where the assets of one hospital trust have been downgraded to offset the assets of another poorer-performing hospital trust. I refer to Lewisham Hospital having its A&E and maternity provision downgraded as a result of the debt situation at a nearby hospital trust. It could be argued that Hemel Hospital suffered a similar fate when Watford District General Hospital was upgraded.
My worry is that we could go through all this exercise of building multiple homes on the site and then find our hospital becoming downgraded because the government want to offset operational costs at nearby hospital trusts, possibly in the area of North West London.
These are serious matters. It is time that we heard from the parliamentary candidates of all main local parties just where they stand on this matter.

Cllr Meerabux / Mohandas / Malcolm etc.

You should not be commenting on this as your decision making could be questioned as you are on the major projects board. Not that it cant already with some of the nutty comments you have been coming out with. You risk causing a judicial review !

MarsLander wrote:

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

How did you see the plans - they're meant to be secret!

The Cabinet papers on Watford Council website state that the land will be used to build 120 houses. The papers say the allotment land is valued at £7 million while the rest of the Cardiff Road site is valued at £8 million. An Industry standard to build a 3 bed semi (minus cost of land) is £60,000, so 120 houses will cost about £7 million. Based on 120 family sized houses selling for an average of £320,000 each gives you a profit of £24 million. The Cabinet report also points out that the government money for the rioad link (£6 million) is not a grant but a loan, repayable by the development partners, but underwritten by Watford Council - ie Watford residents are liable ultimately for that £6 million.

Andrew1963 wrote:

MarsLander wrote:

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

How did you see the plans - they're meant to be secret!

The Cabinet papers on Watford Council website state that the land will be used to build 120 houses. The papers say the allotment land is valued at £7 million while the rest of the Cardiff Road site is valued at £8 million. An Industry standard to build a 3 bed semi (minus cost of land) is £60,000, so 120 houses will cost about £7 million. Based on 120 family sized houses selling for an average of £320,000 each gives you a profit of £24 million. The Cabinet report also points out that the government money for the rioad link (£6 million) is not a grant but a loan, repayable by the development partners, but underwritten by Watford Council - ie Watford residents are liable ultimately for that £6 million.

Nice piece of detective work, there.

Mike Watford wrote:

Andrew1963 wrote:
Building 120 house on the allotments will restrict the space available for the hospital. It will however raise about £24 million profit, a small proportion of the £350 million needed or about the price of 3 or 4 houses in the Hampstead road our MP lives in! The biggest problem is that all allotments are now easy game for development. If the council needs another £24 million, what will stop them building another 120 houses on Oxhey Grange allotments in Oxhey Avenue or the Chester Road site, both in well established residential areas?

I think the figure is 60 houses (not 120) and the hospital have also said they would like to use the allotment site for some of the new hospital buildings they want.

&gt;&gt;&gt; What will stop them building another 120 houses on other allotments???

The Secretary of State. It doesn't get granted very often (so might not here??) And then a council has to create new allotment plots to compensate for any that are lost. (as WBC are proposing)

Mike check the cabinet papers for 3 December 2012, Paragraph 3.11.5 says "The allotments are out of the flood plain and therefore more housing versus flatted development can be delivered if the
allotments could be built on. If the entire allotment site was available for housing around120 family houses could be delivered" So it is 120 not 60 houses plus no land for hospital buildings.

>Harrington is the director of a property development company. You can look it up on Wikipedia, it's there in black and white. Not that one should distrust property developers of course, I mean, they're only a business trying to do business...<

I don't dispute it for a moment - AND I don't much care for property developers any more than I like politicians. However, poor old Harry Caine has a blind spot that makes him see all Tories as bad and all socialists as good when most of us realise the world simply isn't as black-and-white that. I've never been against anyone making money, provided it's done honestly and legally. There are lots of socialist millionaires - Sir Alex Ferguson for one, and he seems to see no contradiction in his views. Nor does Tony Blair.

It seems to me that for the hospital to participate in this venture, it needs firstly to gain foundations status.
If it fails to do this or the process is prolonged, then it may be the case that no hospital upgrade renewal or refurbishment can take place.
Why - then - has planning permission to build accommodation units on the site been fast forwarded?
Surely, it makes more sense to wait until the hospital gains foundation status and then start thinking about how to upgrade it or whatever?
All the present plans need to be put on hold until the hospital succeeds in gaining foundation status.
The news that the £6 million for the link road is a loan and not a grant, with Watford council tax payers having to meet the cost casts a somewhat different light on the viability or otherwise of this project.
Why cannot the link road become a West Watford Relief Road, with the cost of the road being met by HCC?

kingofpop wrote:
Watford doesnt need 600 more homes, where are all the extra cars going to go?we cant make any of our existing roads bigger and traffic in and around town is already pretty awful. Alot of this town &quot; need " for extra housing is summed up by welcome written in 14 languages outside, and things are'nt going to get better when romania join the eu! And before im branded a racist, it is simply a question of space, britian is an island and quite simply has not got the infastructure to cope with the mass immigration that we have seen since 1997.

totally agree with this post ! well put sir

people you have to remember your politicians actions at the Ballot box to many people in this country have short memories!

I agree with kingofpop and crazyfrog.

If successive governments hadn't utterly failed to tackle the immigration crisis, instead of adopting a "Let them all come" policy, we probably wouldn't need these homes now. And as they're going to be in West Watford, many will probably end up going to foreigners and immigrants since that is where they appear to concentrate.

And as for the comment about 14 languages, I find it an appalling waste of money that the council puts out literature in a number of languages. If immigrants can't understand council literature, they should either take English classes or get someone to translate for them. The French don't mess about with this politically correct nonsense!

Mohandas wrote:

Tara1978 wrote:
I'm sure the allotments are much loved by those that have them, but a better hospital is vital for all of us

Can you explain what is wrong with the present hospital and its location and how the plans for new one will remedy the faults you mentioned?
When you say all of us, what do you mean - the people who come from Hemel and far flung places in Nth West London, those who live in the congested streets of West Watford, the allotment holders?
Thirdly, this scheme is sold as a new hospital, so presumably it's going not going to be 'annexes'?
Lastly, let's have a bit of honesty, isn't it more of a high density housing scheme than about a 'new hospital'. But 'health campus' eases our environmental conscience as we destroy mother earth with concrete and pound Southern England into submission to house our growing population.

I don't really understand your point sorry. Have you been to the hospital? I suspect not if you think it's fine as it is. Hospital staff, other patients, anyone with half a brain can see it needs improving, starting with a new maternity ward. And yes by "all of us" I do mean every person that you state, I mean every person that needs hospital care. I don't think watford hospital is just for watford people, and am grateful we've still got a hospital local to us where our neighbours in nearby towns have quite a journey to get the care they need. Most people I speak to feel the same as me. As for this horror I'm reading over the prospect of new homes, few people under the age of 35 thinks that's a bad thing, we all see how necessary it is. I look forward to seeing the finished plans for this Health Campus. It sounds exciting and positive for our town - and somewhere I might like to live with my family. But the habitual moaners on these pages will never be happy, especially when they have a political axe to grind. And as for the allotment holders, well I do sympathise, but hospital comes first - if using allotments means our hospital gets even just 1% better off than by not using then that's more important to me.

@Tara1978. No-one is disputing that hospitals are essential and continuously improving etc etc. But...
(1) This scheme is one which builds in place over many years. The place is a perpetual building site as it is, and that's not good for staff or patients. A new build in a better location would be quicker, cheaper and better.
(2) Funding for the scheme doesn't have to come from cramming more housing into this location. It could come from land allocation elsewhere in the borough.
(3) The increased pressure on roads, schools, utilities etc from building all these homes next to the most densely populated area in the whole of Hertfordshire is in danger of making the whole system crumble.

No-one is saying that it's not needed, just that the council are going about it the wrong way. If you tolerate this... as the saying goes. 1% better is worth it, is it? How about 400% better by building the health campus somewhere more sensible? Just look at University College Hospital near Euston. State of the art, blue glass and white... like something out of Doctor Who. New build next to the old hospital which was repurposed. A new hospital built somewhere else. They moved the patients over in one go, saving money, time and fuss, not bit by bit like this phased plan would require.

You make many good points but you're arguing for a complete rethink about the entire location of our hospital, and that's just not the cards. Wasn't there a big consultation some years ago now about where hospital services should be located and Watford won. To start back at square one just means no one gets improvements for even more years and services get even more over stretched.

If a rethink means it can get built on a better located greenfield site inside of two or three years, instead of spreading it out six or seven years of misery for West Watford, I think that would be well worth it.

TRT wrote:
If a rethink means it can get built on a better located greenfield site inside of two or three years, instead of spreading it out six or seven years of misery for West Watford, I think that would be well worth it.

I agree. Do you have a possible location in mind?

Long Wood at Kings Langley perhaps. It's adjacent to the M25, A41 and M1 plus West Coast Mainline. Or that dodgy bit of land near Bricket Wood that was used for illegal dumping.

@ TRT

I like your thinking. I don't know without looking into it further, the pro's and cons for the sites you suggest, but I agree they'd be worth considering.

From a purely selfish point of view, as I don't run a car, and I live in Central Watford, having the hospital within easy walking distance is useful. However, as it's a 'district hospital', that is only going to apply for a small number of people. Personally, I'd rather the Council were looking at the broader picture.

I'm also interested to know what contribution other councils such as St Albans, Hemel Hempstead etc, are making given this is as I say, a 'district hospital'.

Syntax i know but it is more a 'regional' rather than a 'district' hospital. Interesting that my family members who have needed hospital treatment have been in-patients at not only Watford General, but also Harefield; Royal Free (Hampstead); National Neurological and UCH in central London. So Watford residents are stilllikely to end upusing in and out patient services outside the town with or without new facilities at Watford.

With the concept of regional speciality centres patients requiring certain treatments will have to travel anyway, as you say.