Shipping containers plan to house new Watford Market (From Watford Observer)

New £1m indoor market to be housed in former TJ Hughes car park

3:30pm Thursday 21st February 2013 in News Photograph of the Author By Adam Binnie, Senior Reporter

An artist's impression of the new market.

Watford’s new market could be largely constructed of shipping containers, and will allow traders to set up stalls on a daily basis.

Intu, formerly Capital Shopping Centres, owns the Harlequin, and is taking the space currently occupied by Charter Place market as part of a widescale redevelopment of the area.

Watford Borough Council will build a new £1million indoor market in the car park outside the former TJ Hughes building to replace the market in Charter Place.

At a meeting of the market working group on Wednesday night, traders, councillors and representatives from a design consultant discussed the new site.

Urban Space Management has been appointed as a design consultant and the committee has visited Borough, Spitalfields, Boxpark and Greenwich markets for ideas.

The Shoreditch-based Boxpark was a particular inspiration for the new market in Watford.

Described as "the world’s first pop-up mall", Boxpark was opened in 2011 and is constructed of stripped and refitted, low-cost shipping containers.

Prospective designs for the new market in Watford were based on a similar "modular" layout, made of shipping containers, which would be stacked on two levels.

The market would operate a core trading policy, meaning permanent stall holders would have to operate every day the market was open.

Traders unable to commit would be able to turn up for the day but would not be able to store anything at the market. Current traders will have to reapply for pitches in the new market.

Mayor Dorothy Thornhill said: "People will come if it’s worth coming for. It has to sell what people want to buy otherwise it won’t survive."

The legal handover of Charter Place will take place in March, although Watford Borough Council will still manage the market and collect the fees.

Intu has promised to keep the current market open until June 2014 to allow the current traders to either move to the new market or sell their old stock.

They have also agreed to pay any compensation claims which might arise from traders.

Comments(16)

MarsLander says...
3:40pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Currently I don't use the market at all, it smells and is dingy. It's been like that for a good long while and I haven't been in there in years, mainly for that reason.

The proposal to put the market into the back of Clements (car park) is a joke surely as there is b$%^er all space there to hold a market.

I suggest relocating the market to....

Market Street, or even better, the High street, in the fresh (?) open air. Ban cars for market day and have stalls all along the high street and parade. Then we would have a proper market again. What we have and what is proposed are pretty shoddy affairs and there is an opportunity there to make something worthwhile instead.

I like Markets. It's a shame Watford doesn't have one worth visiting.

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Retlas says...
4:26pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Perhaps Watford Council could be placed in a container and shipped out?

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TRT says...
4:45pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Classy.

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MarsLander says...
5:14pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Retlas wrote:
Perhaps Watford Council could be placed in a container and shipped out?

How many councillors will it hold?

Great idea though!

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Wacko Jacko says...
6:00pm Thu 21 Feb 13

MarsLander wrote:
Currently I don't use the market at all, it smells and is dingy. It's been like that for a good long while and I haven't been in there in years, mainly for that reason.

The proposal to put the market into the back of Clements (car park) is a joke surely as there is b$%^er all space there to hold a market.

I suggest relocating the market to....

Market Street, or even better, the High street, in the fresh (?) open air. Ban cars for market day and have stalls all along the high street and parade. Then we would have a proper market again. What we have and what is proposed are pretty shoddy affairs and there is an opportunity there to make something worthwhile instead.

I like Markets. It's a shame Watford doesn't have one worth visiting.

Mar Slander offers strong and generally negative opinions on anything and everything based largely on false assumptions and ignorance. I think you'll be surprised by the new market, in a good way.

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MarsLander says...
6:55pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Wacko Jacko wrote:

MarsLander wrote:
Currently I don't use the market at all, it smells and is dingy. It's been like that for a good long while and I haven't been in there in years, mainly for that reason.

The proposal to put the market into the back of Clements (car park) is a joke surely as there is b$%^er all space there to hold a market.

I suggest relocating the market to....

Market Street, or even better, the High street, in the fresh (?) open air. Ban cars for market day and have stalls all along the high street and parade. Then we would have a proper market again. What we have and what is proposed are pretty shoddy affairs and there is an opportunity there to make something worthwhile instead.

I like Markets. It's a shame Watford doesn't have one worth visiting.
Mar Slander offers strong and generally negative opinions on anything and everything based largely on false assumptions and ignorance. I think you'll be surprised by the new market, in a good way.

Wacko,

you might not agree with what I say, but "False assumptions and ignorance"? Quite a charge, don't you think?

Now, let's see, shall I mount a defence of sorts against someone calling themselves Wacko Jacko....ok, why not?

Is there any basis for that "slander"? Earlier this week (Monday) I have given references regarding the obscene profits made by the council on it's parking operation in Watford.

In fact it was you yourself who asked me where I had got that information from (yes you, don't you remember?) as you clearly did not believe it.

Even though I had given a link to the external article in an earlier post on the same story, to make it easier for you I pasted the link a second time. I hope that was clear enough for you and the quality of my information was sufficient; a major article on a national newspaper money site.

Where is the ignorance and false assumptions in that?

Anyway, back to the story...

I hope you are right, I hope I am surprised in a pleasant way but I doubt the car park is large enough or good enough a location for a "good" Watford Market. Containers don't enthuse me either for a dirty old site right on the ring road with all those fumes as the cars wait for the lights to change. I doubt you could have found a worse site for it to be honest. I'm not sure I'd like to spend much time in that particular car park area.

I hope I'm wrong in this case, Watford needs a good market, but my earlier comments still stand, I don't think you are providing one, assuming you are one of the councillors as has been suggested in these pages.

What have you got against a proper street market anyway?

Watford has a long High Street and the French market was held there quite successfully. Why can't our own market traders have a decent market too, where the shoppers would be happy to go and where they go already - the High Street?

If I sound negative on occasion I hope you will look at what is said and evaluate the facts and opinions based on their merit. It's what a fair-minded person might do and it's within everyone to become a fair-minded person.

Here's an alternative site as well. The Council car park.

Ban parking behind the town hall and turn it over to a market. There's plenty of room, it's open air and doesn't suffer from the high levels of pollution I suspect you will find in the car park behind Clements.

If it causes problems for a few councillors and employees, sorry and all that, but we can simply remind them, "They work for us!".

Problem solved by suggesting two good sites, both completely viable, and Watford can get a proper market again.

Why are you so keen on a pokey little car park next to a congested road anyway? Do you have shares in an inhaler company?

[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MarsLander[/bold] wrote: Currently I don't use the market at all, it smells and is dingy. It's been like that for a good long while and I haven't been in there in years, mainly for that reason. The proposal to put the market into the back of Clements (car park) is a joke surely as there is b$%^er all space there to hold a market. I suggest relocating the market to.... Market Street, or even better, the High street, in the fresh (?) open air. Ban cars for market day and have stalls all along the high street and parade. Then we would have a proper market again. What we have and what is proposed are pretty shoddy affairs and there is an opportunity there to make something worthwhile instead. I like Markets. It's a shame Watford doesn't have one worth visiting.[/p][/quote]Mar Slander offers strong and generally negative opinions on anything and everything based largely on false assumptions and ignorance. I think you'll be surprised by the new market, in a good way.[/p][/quote]Wacko, you might not agree with what I say, but "False assumptions and ignorance"? Quite a charge, don't you think? Now, let's see, shall I mount a defence of sorts against someone calling themselves Wacko Jacko....ok, why not? Is there any basis for that "slander"? Earlier this week (Monday) I have given references regarding the obscene profits made by the council on it's parking operation in Watford. In fact it was you yourself who asked me where I had got that information from (yes you, don't you remember?) as you clearly did not believe it. Even though I had given a link to the external article in an earlier post on the same story, to make it easier for you I pasted the link a second time. I hope that was clear enough for you and the quality of my information was sufficient; a major article on a national newspaper money site. Where is the ignorance and false assumptions in that? Anyway, back to the story... I hope you are right, I hope I am surprised in a pleasant way but I doubt the car park is large enough or good enough a location for a "good" Watford Market. Containers don't enthuse me either for a dirty old site right on the ring road with all those fumes as the cars wait for the lights to change. I doubt you could have found a worse site for it to be honest. I'm not sure I'd like to spend much time in that particular car park area. I hope I'm wrong in this case, Watford needs a good market, but my earlier comments still stand, I don't think you are providing one, assuming you are one of the councillors as has been suggested in these pages. What have you got against a proper street market anyway? Watford has a long High Street and the French market was held there quite successfully. Why can't our own market traders have a decent market too, where the shoppers would be happy to go and where they go already - the High Street? If I sound negative on occasion I hope you will look at what is said and evaluate the facts and opinions based on their merit. It's what a fair-minded person might do and it's within everyone to become a fair-minded person. Here's an alternative site as well. The Council car park. Ban parking behind the town hall and turn it over to a market. There's plenty of room, it's open air and doesn't suffer from the high levels of pollution I suspect you will find in the car park behind Clements. If it causes problems for a few councillors and employees, sorry and all that, but we can simply remind them, "They work for us!". Problem solved by suggesting two good sites, both completely viable, and Watford can get a proper market again. Why are you so keen on a pokey little car park next to a congested road anyway? Do you have shares in an inhaler company? MarsLander

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circus says...
9:21pm Thu 21 Feb 13

Does the council own the Clements building or just the carpark?

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Cooke 11 says...
10:18pm Thu 21 Feb 13

I would love to be able to shop at a market for my fresh fruit n veg meat fish ect but cant manage to carry 3lb of spuds a cauli broccolli carrots cabbage bananas apples , pound of sausages joint of beef ect ect, quarter of a mile back to my car, hence the supermarkets getting my money as i get free on site parking, so markets don't get the custom for family size orders and they don't get the passer by stopping off for the odd items either cos it would cost a pound or more to park n pop in., same as high street shops , no one pops in to grab tonight veg n spuds cos they can't park. Considering more people drive these days theres more parking restrictions than ever so how does the high street shops n markets survive,! They won't while theres a supermarket round the corner. Unfortunately.

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Andrew1963 says...
10:46pm Thu 21 Feb 13

I like Boxpark -it is great,but it is avery trendy area. Greenwich market is also great, but in a traditional Edwardian market Hall.Both are very different but rely on having an affluent customer base. I suggest Watford market traders are totally different, and you need to have different traders tofollow those two London examples.Surely the model to follow is nearby St Albans, that is a traditional street market, which operates twice a week in a pedestrianised street and supports both craft; fresh food and value traders. A £1million investment is either very brave or foolhardy bearing in mind the poor turnover of the existing traders and the obscure location which is even further away from the main retail area and the buses and car parks.

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Peter Jeffree says...
10:22am Fri 22 Feb 13

As one of the small group of councillors and market traders who visited markets with the design team to gather ideas, perhaps I can shed a little more light on this topic.
The work Urban Space Management has done so far has demonstrated that there is sufficient space in the TJ Hughes site to create an exciting new Watford Market, which can combine the best of both worlds, permanent lockable modular kiosks for regular market traders and open stalls for day traders and/or specialist visiting markets.
The new market will have a main entrance directly off the High Street adjacent to the flyover and the flyover itself could potentially provide prominent gateway signage and shelter for more stalls outside the body of the market itself, subject of course to agreement with Herts CC.
There will also be an important entrance from the Clarendon Road approach which will be highly visible from the ring road and will attract customers from the large population of office workers in that road. Also from the bus stops near Charter Place. This will allow the market to benefit from becoming in effect a new pedestrian 'covered street' linking Clarendon Road and the High Street.
The idea at this stage is for the permanent trader's kiosks to line both sides facing into the new market hall, with space in the middle for day trader open stalls which potentially could also spill out into the High Street and along into the Parade, allowing the market to grow and contract with varying levels of demand and activity. The plans include an upper level which could be the 'food court' for the market.
A key element is a translucent roof which will provide weather cover over the permanent stalls and hall space, and will very importantly act as the visual identity of the market, making it highly visible to anyone driving round the ring road or approaching by bus.
Watford Market won't be a carbon copy of any other market that you or we have seen, but the design will take on board the best concepts from other successful markets.
I should stress that what we have right now is a concept that demonstrates the feasibility of the new market and shows some of the promising new ideas which are emerging. It is not the final design, but it will form the basis from which the final design will appear when the contractor and their design team are appointed later in the year.
I'm personally very excited about the prospect of this new Watford Market and believe it will do a lot to help retail between Charter Place and the upper end of the High Street regenerate itself.

As one of the small group of councillors and market traders who visited markets with the design team to gather ideas, perhaps I can shed a little more light on this topic. The work Urban Space Management has done so far has demonstrated that there is sufficient space in the TJ Hughes site to create an exciting new Watford Market, which can combine the best of both worlds, permanent lockable modular kiosks for regular market traders and open stalls for day traders and/or specialist visiting markets. The new market will have a main entrance directly off the High Street adjacent to the flyover and the flyover itself could potentially provide prominent gateway signage and shelter for more stalls outside the body of the market itself, subject of course to agreement with Herts CC. There will also be an important entrance from the Clarendon Road approach which will be highly visible from the ring road and will attract customers from the large population of office workers in that road. Also from the bus stops near Charter Place. This will allow the market to benefit from becoming in effect a new pedestrian 'covered street' linking Clarendon Road and the High Street. The idea at this stage is for the permanent trader's kiosks to line both sides facing into the new market hall, with space in the middle for day trader open stalls which potentially could also spill out into the High Street and along into the Parade, allowing the market to grow and contract with varying levels of demand and activity. The plans include an upper level which could be the 'food court' for the market. A key element is a translucent roof which will provide weather cover over the permanent stalls and hall space, and will very importantly act as the visual identity of the market, making it highly visible to anyone driving round the ring road or approaching by bus. Watford Market won't be a carbon copy of any other market that you or we have seen, but the design will take on board the best concepts from other successful markets. I should stress that what we have right now is a concept that demonstrates the feasibility of the new market and shows some of the promising new ideas which are emerging. It is not the final design, but it will form the basis from which the final design will appear when the contractor and their design team are appointed later in the year. I'm personally very excited about the prospect of this new Watford Market and believe it will do a lot to help retail between Charter Place and the upper end of the High Street regenerate itself. Peter Jeffree

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Andrew1963 says...
12:37pm Fri 22 Feb 13

circus wrote:
Does the council own the Clements building or just the carpark?

Neither - In addition to £1 million capital, the council will rent the space and hope that the traders stall rents will cover all the costs of running the market including renting the land.

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garston tony says...
12:45pm Fri 22 Feb 13

The mayor is right that people will only go to the market if it sells things that they want, however the council has at their end to do all it can to a) encourage market stall holders who sell what people want to trade there and b) place the market itself in a place that is accessible.

Not that I don’t think this shipping container idea is necessarily a bad idea, but I'm not convinced the council - and Dotty herself - are that bothered about the market. I therefore agree with Mars that the area they are proposing doesn’t feel the right place, even if on two floors which seems a suggestion it just feels too small.

Although Peter Jeffree's comments do seem positive

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Roadrunner38 says...
4:44pm Fri 22 Feb 13

A market composed of metal containers. Should be very attractive (in the electrical sense) during an overhead thunderstorm!

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Oxhey-Moron says...
5:28pm Fri 22 Feb 13

Actually a brilliant concept! If you think I'm mad, check out the Boxpark in Shoreditch: http://www.boxpark.c
o.uk/

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Andrew1963 says...
11:17pm Fri 22 Feb 13

Yes Boxpark as architecture is great - but it is economically succesful because of where it is.I doubt it would work so well in Harlow or Watford because the difference in demographics.

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pikkagirl19 says...
11:20am Sat 23 Feb 13

We need market in South Oxhey.

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Shipping containers plan to house new Watford Market (From Watford Observer)

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