Bishop's concern at Government plans to cap benefits (From Watford Observer)

If the church paid taxes like the rest of us do, we might not have such a problem.
I also seemed to have missed the part where he commented on Tithes, where people rich or POOR have to give 10% of their earnings to the church or they won't get into heaven.

Sort your own house out, Mate, before you lecture our elected representatives.

According to their website the Church Commissioners over the last ten years have returned an average of 5.7% pa on their investments. So maybe they should take over the reins from the Chancellor.

What nonsense LSC. The church does not teach you have to tithe to get to heaven.
And what taxes should they actually pay? They pay employmreny tax as an employer.

NoMorePlease wrote:
What nonsense LSC. The church does not teach you have to tithe to get to heaven.
And what taxes should they actually pay? They pay employmreny tax as an employer.

LSC never lets facts get in the way of a good rant if religion is involved. All christian denominations are compressed in his brain into one single entity. Christianity to him is an exercise in cherry picking - a bit of middle age crusading here and a bit of catholic pedophilia there. All benign elements conveniently airbrushed out.

The fact that the churches, and other religious groups, do mountains of charitable work in this country passes him by. In his deluded mind they are 'big business'.

WatfordAlex wrote:

NoMorePlease wrote:
What nonsense LSC. The church does not teach you have to tithe to get to heaven.
And what taxes should they actually pay? They pay employmreny tax as an employer.

LSC never lets facts get in the way of a good rant if religion is involved. All christian denominations are compressed in his brain into one single entity. Christianity to him is an exercise in cherry picking - a bit of middle age crusading here and a bit of catholic pedophilia there. All benign elements conveniently airbrushed out.

The fact that the churches, and other religious groups, do mountains of charitable work in this country passes him by. In his deluded mind they are 'big business'.

Churches do not do charitable work; people do. I should know, I run a charity.
And you won't find many less religious than me.

I supposedly 'cherry pick' because taking the whole lot apart piece by piece would take quite a long time, but I can easily do so if you wish. I tend to go for the more obvious hypocracy and corruption though.

My Aunt, who is mentally disabled, is forced, yes forced, to pay a tithe to her church. I have tried to make her, and them, see sense, but she is just too frightened because they have told her she will not go to heaven without it.
That's just pure evil in my book, and what's more; she is on benefits so it is my money. And yours.

If that makes me deluded, fine by me.

I'll also add, her church tried to get power of attorney over her affairs.

Over my dead body.

She might find her religion a comfort for what has been a difficult life, and I do not try to deny her that. But I'll be damned if they are going to rip her off.

So stick that in your pious pipes, and smoke it.

Now I've taken a few breaths; yes that was a rant but seeing the disabled and vulnerable exploited will often send me into one; I'm sure most of the rational people reading this would see why. It is personal to someone I love very dearly.

I can take all the pathetic name calling I get, but the facts speak for themselves.

To answer the question, churches, (all denominations) for some reason are regarded as charities and receive certain tax exemptions. The C of E are in the top 5 land owners in the UK and pay nothing in tax for it. They get plenty of INCOME from it; when did you last use a church hall for free? Or a free burial? Or a christening? Capital Gains Tax on a bequeathment? Have you seen what a church charges for a wedding these days? My local is over a grand, for a couple of hours work, and NO TAX PAID.

They run a business without paying the appropriate taxes. That's not up for argument, it is fact.

It's wrong.

LSC, firstly no one HAS to give tithe. It’s a free will offering. Your aunt can stop paying tithe any time she likes LSC, if she has gotten the wrong end of the stick then that is a shame but you cant condem Christianity for that no matter how genuinely felt her impression on that subject is. I've never heard of a church trying to get power of attorney either, and without knowing any of the details its hard to comment on that too.

Secondly the Bishop I'm sure had nothing to do with the rules regarding taxation and therefore what tax the church pays is also nothing to do with him. Therefore why don’t you actually comment on the proposals that are being put forward by the charity he is backing instead of once again digressing the discussion from the actual point.

There are probably as many different variations in Christianity as there are people that profess to be followers of Christ. I've tried explaining to LSC time and again that you cant look at one particular aspect necessarily and proclaim it as being representative of the whole faith but it really is like hitting your head against a brick wall time and time again. And WatfordAlex hit the nail on the head, LSC if ever you get tired of your current job you should seriously think about going into farming as you are an expert at picking fruit.


Once again churches do not decide on the tax laws, if you're unhappy about the situation you need to lobby government ie those that actually make the decision on that sort of thing. Secondly a) why shouldn’t they be able to charge for services and resources they provide and b) you obviously have no clue the costs involved and c) you're confusing being asset rich ie havingproperty and being cash rich. The two don’t necessarily run hand in hand

The church do not decide tax laws, true. They don't decide family benefit caps either, but this chap has plenty to say about it and is hoping to use his posistion to bring pressure on elected government.
That, of course is the right of every citizen, but unless he is using it for extra pressure, his job is surely immaterial.

I expect there is a lorry driver in Oxhey unhappy about benefit caps too, but I don't see any column inches about him. This suggests that it is considered that this man's opinion is somehow more important, despite the fact he appears to be a qualified bishop, not an economist.

I don't understand this cherry picking argument at all. If I invented a plane, and the left hand engine kept falling off in flight, could I complain if people pointed out this flaw? Would they be cherry picking? After all the right hand engine and the rest of the plane are perfect. Just one tiny fault in a bolt holding the engine on, and you'd refuse to get on it and fly in it; how picky! How ignorant to condemn a whole plane because of one minor design flaw.
But you would, and that is all I'm doing with religion.

And yes Tony, I accept the case of my Aunt is not the norm, but it is very real to me, and I have heard it from the horses mouth. In front of her and me, they said she must pay the Tithe, or she will not go to heaven. Naturally I challenged them on this, which left my Aunt confused and frightened, so I also challenged them away from her. Same answer.
My Aunt feels that church are her salvation, her hope. I cannot and will not attempt to deprive her of that.

But you can imagine how it makes my blood boil; I accept you also disagree with such practices, but they are going on; she can't be the only case.

So I'm afraid you are stuck with me. I will attack an institution that allows legal theft at every opportunity.

Why isn't this bishop in the story above concentrating his time and efforts to things like that rather than dabbling in politics?

Oh and Alex; you said:

"All christian denominations are compressed in his brain into one single entity."

Well, yes. I know there are a few different versions of the bible, but that is the basic rule book for you all isn't it?

Or are you suggesting...gasp... some denominations 'cherry pick' certain sections of the bible over others and come up with different interpretations?

Cherry picking is naughty, you told me so.

LSC wrote:
The church do not decide tax laws, true. They don't decide family benefit caps either, but this chap has plenty to say about it and is hoping to use his posistion to bring pressure on elected government. That, of course is the right of every citizen, but unless he is using it for extra pressure, his job is surely immaterial. I expect there is a lorry driver in Oxhey unhappy about benefit caps too, but I don't see any column inches about him. This suggests that it is considered that this man's opinion is somehow more important, despite the fact he appears to be a qualified bishop, not an economist. I don't understand this cherry picking argument at all. If I invented a plane, and the left hand engine kept falling off in flight, could I complain if people pointed out this flaw? Would they be cherry picking? After all the right hand engine and the rest of the plane are perfect. Just one tiny fault in a bolt holding the engine on, and you'd refuse to get on it and fly in it; how picky! How ignorant to condemn a whole plane because of one minor design flaw. But you would, and that is all I'm doing with religion.

So because the church doesn’t have a say on one thing it shouldn’t speak out on a totally different matter? Sometimes your logic is baffling LSC to put it mildly!

Commenting on the impact the changes in the benefit system may have on the poorer people in this country is precisely in keeping with what Christianity is about and as a church leader he is speaking on behalf of his parishioners. Of course he hopes his words will have an influence, just as someone standing on a soap box in Hyde Park (does that still happen?) hopes their words have an impact just as anyone with something they wish to say (like a Lorry driver from Oxhey) hopes their words have impact.

If your planes engines kept falling off but all the other planes invented by other people had no engine issues then you would be wrong to tell people not to fly on any aircraft. Your message to be accurate would need to be about your specific plane with its specific issue not every plane. They've not grounded all aircraft in the world after all because the Boeing Dreamliner has a battery fault have they. Just the Dreamliner itself.

If you had an issue with flying in general and are using the issue with the Dreamliner for instance as a reason to stop all flights then you are cherry picking your information to suit your view point arent you. As well as scare mongering of course.

LSC wrote:
And yes Tony, I accept the case of my Aunt is not the norm, but it is very real to me, and I have heard it from the horses mouth. In front of her and me, they said she must pay the Tithe, or she will not go to heaven. Naturally I challenged them on this, which left my Aunt confused and frightened, so I also challenged them away from her. Same answer. My Aunt feels that church are her salvation, her hope. I cannot and will not attempt to deprive her of that. But you can imagine how it makes my blood boil; I accept you also disagree with such practices, but they are going on; she can't be the only case. So I'm afraid you are stuck with me. I will attack an institution that allows legal theft at every opportunity. Why isn't this bishop in the story above concentrating his time and efforts to things like that rather than dabbling in politics?

So LSC, instead of attacking the whole of the Christian faith based on how your Aunt you feel is being unfairly treated attack that particular denomination or particular church or that particular churches leadership/membershi
p or a particular belief they have. That is the fair path instead of attacking the whole religion.

Why is my faith and my church being attacked by you for something it doesn’t do but someone else does? That is flawed logic and totally unfair.

LSC wrote:
Oh and Alex; you said: "All christian denominations are compressed in his brain into one single entity." Well, yes. I know there are a few different versions of the bible, but that is the basic rule book for you all isn't it? Or are you suggesting...gasp... some denominations 'cherry pick' certain sections of the bible over others and come up with different interpretations? Cherry picking is naughty, you told me so.

Actually LSC, some denominations do Cherry pick bits of the Bible to suit their own outlook just as detractors of the faith also cherry pick in order to attack the whole faith. There is for an extreme example a church which calls itself Christian but states it doesn’t believe Christ actually existed. Now seeing as He is central to the whole faith they have Cherry picked what they want to suit their own outlook or needs and for them despite being central to the faith they decide they want to do without Him. .

Personally I totally disagree with that, but I also appreciate that everyone has their own interpretation of the Bible (many people would disagree with some of my own opinions and beliefs im certain) but the crucial point to make is that if someone cherry picks or abuses it for their own purposes or to fit their own view point or gets the wrong end of the stick that makes them wrong not the Bible.

But that takes me back to my point of two posts ago, if there is something you see wrong tackle the relevant people not the whole.

And it also leads me onto a point I've made time and again, it is for everyone who says they are a follower of Christ to pick up their Bibles and study it for themselves and not just accept what they are told by someone else without query. Self study is crucial not only to develop a closer relationship with God but also crucial to stop you being led astray.