New youth pastor, Sam Neves, takes up role at Stanborough Park Seventh-day Adventist Church

Watford Observer: Sam Neves with wife Amy and sons James and Joshua. Sam Neves with wife Amy and sons James and Joshua.

Young people attending Stanborough Park Seventh-day Adventist Church in Garston should find it easy to relate to new Youth Minister, Pastor Sam Neves, who took up his post at the New Year and describes himself as having once been a "somewhat rebellious teenager".

However, he and his wife, Amy, are already familiar faces at the church where her parents, David and Caroline Swain, were life-long members until their recent move to retirement in Northern Ireland.

Amy, who grew up in neighbouring Holland Gardens, was a pupil at Stanborough Secondary School when Sam, aged 14, arrived from Brazil as a boarding pupil. They married at Stanborough Park Church in July 2004, and now have two sons, James, 4, and Joshua, 2.

Pastor Sam feels that his destiny was sealed before his birth. His mother had been told that she was unable to have children of her own but recalled the Bible story of how Hannah, finding herself in a similar situation, prayed for a child who, after her wish was granted, grew up to be the prophet Samuel.

She decided to follow her example, praying earnestly for a child of her own and promising God that if her wish was similarly granted she too would call him Samuel and dedicate him to be a minister.

In addition this work at the church he is also involved with the Centre for Secular and Post Modern Studies at the denomination’s headquarters in America which involved helping churches across Europe to become relevant to the current generation.

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10:00am Tue 31 Dec 13

andyandyandy says...

So sad more young people brainwashed and distanced from reality. These people deny evolution and think Noahs Ark is a true story!
There is no place for such ignorance in this day and age. Children should not be taught such rubbish, its child abuse.
So sad more young people brainwashed and distanced from reality. These people deny evolution and think Noahs Ark is a true story! There is no place for such ignorance in this day and age. Children should not be taught such rubbish, its child abuse. andyandyandy

9:55pm Wed 1 Jan 14

LSC says...

Agreed andyandyandy.
Did anyone else catch the lectures from the Royal Institution this year?
They are always interesting, but this year were about genetics and evolution and completely disproved, without question, every biblical idea of how we all came about.
To tell children otherwise is indeed abuse, unless you treat gods as Santa or the Tooth Fairy, and it is just a bit of fun.
Agreed andyandyandy. Did anyone else catch the lectures from the Royal Institution this year? They are always interesting, but this year were about genetics and evolution and completely disproved, without question, every biblical idea of how we all came about. To tell children otherwise is indeed abuse, unless you treat gods as Santa or the Tooth Fairy, and it is just a bit of fun. LSC

3:43pm Thu 2 Jan 14

garston tony says...

Oh dear, the same old rubbish is it?

This is a man in I would say his early 30's by the look of the picture who I dont doubt has spent far more hours studying and investigating his own beliefs (which more likely than not includes comparing it to other belief systems including big bang/evolution) and it is such a shame that people cant accept that believing in a God is a perfectly fine thing to do instead of throwing out tired old cliches about brainwashing etc.

As to the Royal Institute lectures I watch them avidly every single year and whilst fascinating this years lectures did nothing despite your claim LSC to disprove the Biblical account of creation.

As is often the case you have mistaken 'theory' for fact and you are so blinkered that you refuse to see how much actual fact supports the Bible account and certainly does not contradict it. You call Christians brainwashed but you are the one with the closed mind!

If you want to make accusations about brainwashing then you dont have to look any further than the millions of people that believe in big bang and evolution purely because it is what is presented to them in media. Far more people have the views you hold based not on true study of the subject but purely on watching fictional programs like walking with dinosaurs etc than believe in Jesus just because it is what they have been told to believe.
Oh dear, the same old rubbish is it? This is a man in I would say his early 30's by the look of the picture who I dont doubt has spent far more hours studying and investigating his own beliefs (which more likely than not includes comparing it to other belief systems including big bang/evolution) and it is such a shame that people cant accept that believing in a God is a perfectly fine thing to do instead of throwing out tired old cliches about brainwashing etc. As to the Royal Institute lectures I watch them avidly every single year and whilst fascinating this years lectures did nothing despite your claim LSC to disprove the Biblical account of creation. As is often the case you have mistaken 'theory' for fact and you are so blinkered that you refuse to see how much actual fact supports the Bible account and certainly does not contradict it. You call Christians brainwashed but you are the one with the closed mind! If you want to make accusations about brainwashing then you dont have to look any further than the millions of people that believe in big bang and evolution purely because it is what is presented to them in media. Far more people have the views you hold based not on true study of the subject but purely on watching fictional programs like walking with dinosaurs etc than believe in Jesus just because it is what they have been told to believe. garston tony

7:40pm Thu 2 Jan 14

Popeonarope says...

The Seventh-day Adventists are a odd bunch, up there with the Witnesses and Mormons.

Tony - Most of the Bible is hokum. It raises more questions than it answers now and is therefore unreliable. Teaching this to children when they have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as the impossible is presented as truth.
As a control mechanism it is designed to instill a sense of fear and oppression and as such it is child abuse.
It is no wonder the vast majority of the faithful follow their parents flavour of religion when they are recruited at an early age. A sense of belonging, instilled in the church is, however seditious, a powerful chain to break away from, particularly in an organisation that requires participation.

Evolution is fact - the evidence is overwhelming. Again, just because you dont agree with something, doesnt make it less true.
Dinosaurs are real - the evidence is overwhelming. People believe they existed because of the fossils, the massive time frames involved and the scientific communities advances in DNA common ancestry.

Religion is the cause of most of the horror in the world - between them and because of them. Education is not something to be scared of; People who think this life is a stepping stone to something better are worthy of fear as they can and will do things to to quicken this transition. All in the name of a big sky fairy who expects absolute obedience yet remains strangely aloof.

It is time this backwards nonsense was banished to our history and be done with it.
The Seventh-day Adventists are a odd bunch, up there with the Witnesses and Mormons. Tony - Most of the Bible is hokum. It raises more questions than it answers now and is therefore unreliable. Teaching this to children when they have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as the impossible is presented as truth. As a control mechanism it is designed to instill a sense of fear and oppression and as such it is child abuse. It is no wonder the vast majority of the faithful follow their parents flavour of religion when they are recruited at an early age. A sense of belonging, instilled in the church is, however seditious, a powerful chain to break away from, particularly in an organisation that requires participation. Evolution is fact - the evidence is overwhelming. Again, just because you dont agree with something, doesnt make it less true. Dinosaurs are real - the evidence is overwhelming. People believe they existed because of the fossils, the massive time frames involved and the scientific communities advances in DNA common ancestry. Religion is the cause of most of the horror in the world - between them and because of them. Education is not something to be scared of; People who think this life is a stepping stone to something better are worthy of fear as they can and will do things to to quicken this transition. All in the name of a big sky fairy who expects absolute obedience yet remains strangely aloof. It is time this backwards nonsense was banished to our history and be done with it. Popeonarope

9:06pm Thu 2 Jan 14

garston tony says...

Evolution is not fact, hence why it is called the 'theory of'. That theory asks more questions than it gives answers itself, is inconsistent, often contradicts itself, is by its own admission man made, constantly being disproved, is constantly being changed and is wholly unreliable.

Just because you dont believe in God doesnt mean He doesnt exist.

As to your comment about religious wars etc youve proved my point about people not knowing their facts. Whilst i cant speak for all conflicts you'll find that by far the majority of 'religious' wars are actually men trying to fulfil their very sinful desires for power, riches etc.

Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth. The inertia of the brainwashed masses is a difficult bond to break especially when the lies are spoon fed to them everywhere they look and it is easier to remain in the safe ignorant cocoon than make the effort to do even the modicum of research that would reveal the lies of big bang and evolutionary theory.

Your comment about dinosaurs also betrays ignorance, if you really knew anything about the matter you would know they are mentioned in the Bible.


The Adventists i have found to be very normal Christians. Yes their Sabbath day is Saturday not Sunday but they are quite right in believing it to be the original Sabbath day and there is nothing untoward in them adhering to that day. Their health message is very admiral too and has been found to be very beneficial to, well, good health.

It is time allowing evolution theory to be taught as fact be banished and it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, instead of tootling along in their ignorant bubble spouting ignorant remarks as you are
Evolution is not fact, hence why it is called the 'theory of'. That theory asks more questions than it gives answers itself, is inconsistent, often contradicts itself, is by its own admission man made, constantly being disproved, is constantly being changed and is wholly unreliable. Just because you dont believe in God doesnt mean He doesnt exist. As to your comment about religious wars etc youve proved my point about people not knowing their facts. Whilst i cant speak for all conflicts you'll find that by far the majority of 'religious' wars are actually men trying to fulfil their very sinful desires for power, riches etc. Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth. The inertia of the brainwashed masses is a difficult bond to break especially when the lies are spoon fed to them everywhere they look and it is easier to remain in the safe ignorant cocoon than make the effort to do even the modicum of research that would reveal the lies of big bang and evolutionary theory. Your comment about dinosaurs also betrays ignorance, if you really knew anything about the matter you would know they are mentioned in the Bible. The Adventists i have found to be very normal Christians. Yes their Sabbath day is Saturday not Sunday but they are quite right in believing it to be the original Sabbath day and there is nothing untoward in them adhering to that day. Their health message is very admiral too and has been found to be very beneficial to, well, good health. It is time allowing evolution theory to be taught as fact be banished and it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, instead of tootling along in their ignorant bubble spouting ignorant remarks as you are garston tony

10:41pm Thu 2 Jan 14

LSC says...

Some of evolution is still theory, much is now proven fact. And that is the beauty of it; it allows for free thinking, for learning new things and accepting new ideas.
In fact, the total opposite of organised religion.

You want me to believe Eve was made from a rib from Adam, they fell foul to a snake with legs and then had two sons. And thus the human race was born.
Then everyone was wiped out but Noah and co. so we presumably started again.

"it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, "

Really? At just what age are children baptised or christened and made a member of the church? Oh, yes, before they can even talk. That sounds like free will to me. Why not wait until they are 18, or even 16? They age when people are generally regarded as being able to free think without undue influence from peers and parents?
No way, religion is wise to that, and buys them young.
Some of evolution is still theory, much is now proven fact. And that is the beauty of it; it allows for free thinking, for learning new things and accepting new ideas. In fact, the total opposite of organised religion. You want me to believe Eve was made from a rib from Adam, they fell foul to a snake with legs and then had two sons. And thus the human race was born. Then everyone was wiped out but Noah and co. so we presumably started again. "it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, " Really? At just what age are children baptised or christened and made a member of the church? Oh, yes, before they can even talk. That sounds like free will to me. Why not wait until they are 18, or even 16? They age when people are generally regarded as being able to free think without undue influence from peers and parents? No way, religion is wise to that, and buys them young. LSC

11:33pm Thu 2 Jan 14

LSC says...

Tony, I accept, respect and believe you found your faith in your own way, you have told me so before and I believe you.
But you have to agree that the huge majority did not. My wife was taught by nuns; you think they encouraged discussion of Hindu philosophy, just in case it was a path she might wish to take?
No, they told her she might be going to HELL for even asking about it.
In fact she was told she was going to hell from about the age of 4 to 18, unless she did what she was told, loved the baby jeebus and the virgin Mary.
I was forbidden from marrying her, by the priest, unless I agreed that our children would be raised as catholic.
I lied. Any kids of mine can be anything they want, and lying to a priest was no hardship, he'd done it long enough to everyone else.
He actually wasn't a stupid man, and knew I was lying. He told me so. We both laughed as I swore on the bible. But he married us anyway, and so much for his principals, but no doubt the wedding fee and collection plate eased his spiritual angst for my, and my children's souls.

That is pretty much the pattern for all religions. C of E is the most embarrassing because it is even documented when and why it was made up. They don't even try to hide the fact it was all made up.
But it is probably amoung the least harmless.
Tony, I accept, respect and believe you found your faith in your own way, you have told me so before and I believe you. But you have to agree that the huge majority did not. My wife was taught by nuns; you think they encouraged discussion of Hindu philosophy, just in case it was a path she might wish to take? No, they told her she might be going to HELL for even asking about it. In fact she was told she was going to hell from about the age of 4 to 18, unless she did what she was told, loved the baby jeebus and the virgin Mary. I was forbidden from marrying her, by the priest, unless I agreed that our children would be raised as catholic. I lied. Any kids of mine can be anything they want, and lying to a priest was no hardship, he'd done it long enough to everyone else. He actually wasn't a stupid man, and knew I was lying. He told me so. We both laughed as I swore on the bible. But he married us anyway, and so much for his principals, but no doubt the wedding fee and collection plate eased his spiritual angst for my, and my children's souls. That is pretty much the pattern for all religions. C of E is the most embarrassing because it is even documented when and why it was made up. They don't even try to hide the fact it was all made up. But it is probably amoung the least harmless. LSC

7:50am Fri 3 Jan 14

garston tony says...

LSC wrote:
Some of evolution is still theory, much is now proven fact. And that is the beauty of it; it allows for free thinking, for learning new things and accepting new ideas. In fact, the total opposite of organised religion. You want me to believe Eve was made from a rib from Adam, they fell foul to a snake with legs and then had two sons. And thus the human race was born. Then everyone was wiped out but Noah and co. so we presumably started again. "it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, " Really? At just what age are children baptised or christened and made a member of the church? Oh, yes, before they can even talk. That sounds like free will to me. Why not wait until they are 18, or even 16? They age when people are generally regarded as being able to free think without undue influence from peers and parents? No way, religion is wise to that, and buys them young.
Nothing that is 'proven' about evolution contradicts the Bible, suprisingly enough (not) the only evolutionary theory that goes against what the Bible says is precisely the theory ie the man made stuff.

It's rather tiring to be constantly told that I have been brainwashed and or am not free to think freely or refuse to consider other alternative beliefs because I believe in a God. I like most Christians actively study what we believe and that includes in many cases comparing it to alternative beliefs. Can the same be said of most people that believe in evolution and big bang? I doubt if most people that believe in Evolution/Big bang have picked up a Bible let alone studied it properly to make their own comparative judgement on the matter.

Everything you accuse religious people of can be thrown back at evolutionarist and with extra force, being a true Christian takes effort and dedication whilst most evolutionarist have never even studied that subject and their entire belief is based on what they can remember from some program they once watched a few years ago.

And how naive are you to think that if a child is baptised/christened into the church when they are a child that that removes all possibility of them having a choice in what they believe when they are older? When they are 16, 18 or younger or older they have every opportunity to decide for themselves what they want to believe. Many, as I did when I was in my teens, do decide that religion is not for them.

And again the claim that you make is just a relevant to evolutionary believers and their children who i'm pretty sure they will bring up to believe in what they do. I doubt they wait until their children are 18 before they start imparting their own personal belief on creation to them. Basically all your claims are hypocritical!
[quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: Some of evolution is still theory, much is now proven fact. And that is the beauty of it; it allows for free thinking, for learning new things and accepting new ideas. In fact, the total opposite of organised religion. You want me to believe Eve was made from a rib from Adam, they fell foul to a snake with legs and then had two sons. And thus the human race was born. Then everyone was wiped out but Noah and co. so we presumably started again. "it is time that people be encouraged to think for themselves, as most Christians are, " Really? At just what age are children baptised or christened and made a member of the church? Oh, yes, before they can even talk. That sounds like free will to me. Why not wait until they are 18, or even 16? They age when people are generally regarded as being able to free think without undue influence from peers and parents? No way, religion is wise to that, and buys them young.[/p][/quote]Nothing that is 'proven' about evolution contradicts the Bible, suprisingly enough (not) the only evolutionary theory that goes against what the Bible says is precisely the theory ie the man made stuff. It's rather tiring to be constantly told that I have been brainwashed and or am not free to think freely or refuse to consider other alternative beliefs because I believe in a God. I like most Christians actively study what we believe and that includes in many cases comparing it to alternative beliefs. Can the same be said of most people that believe in evolution and big bang? I doubt if most people that believe in Evolution/Big bang have picked up a Bible let alone studied it properly to make their own comparative judgement on the matter. Everything you accuse religious people of can be thrown back at evolutionarist and with extra force, being a true Christian takes effort and dedication whilst most evolutionarist have never even studied that subject and their entire belief is based on what they can remember from some program they once watched a few years ago. And how naive are you to think that if a child is baptised/christened into the church when they are a child that that removes all possibility of them having a choice in what they believe when they are older? When they are 16, 18 or younger or older they have every opportunity to decide for themselves what they want to believe. Many, as I did when I was in my teens, do decide that religion is not for them. And again the claim that you make is just a relevant to evolutionary believers and their children who i'm pretty sure they will bring up to believe in what they do. I doubt they wait until their children are 18 before they start imparting their own personal belief on creation to them. Basically all your claims are hypocritical! garston tony

7:57am Fri 3 Jan 14

andyandyandy says...

Garston Tony i think you need to understand the definition of the word theory when used in a scientific sense before you make yourself look an even bigger pr@t.
As in The theory of gravity
Germ theory etc.
Garston Tony i think you need to understand the definition of the word theory when used in a scientific sense before you make yourself look an even bigger pr@t. As in The theory of gravity Germ theory etc. andyandyandy

8:11am Fri 3 Jan 14

andyandyandy says...

Tony reading your comments proves exactly why children should be kept away from religion and exactly why its brainwashing. Your ignorance of evolution is astounding, and i presume that the only thing you really know about it is gleemed from your own church propaganda.
This quote is particularly ridiculous "Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth"
Replace 'evolution in that sentance with religion and you have a point.Religion is a man man unproven idea, evolution is not. Its the result of masses of tried and tested observable evidence. One thing religion totally lacks, evidence.
Evolution is true whether it fits in with your silly basless fairly tale or not.
As for the bible mentioning dinosaurs i believe you refer to the Behemoth in the book of Job?
This is very much open to debate and is not proven in any way to be refering to dinosaurs. If the bible was refering to dinosaurs why are they not mentioned in the creation story? seeing as they played such a major part, they inhabited this planet for millions of years longer than humans ever have.
Tony try watching the Jerry Coyne lecture on You Tube 'Why Evolution is true' it may help you from looking like a fool in future and you might learn something.
Tony reading your comments proves exactly why children should be kept away from religion and exactly why its brainwashing. Your ignorance of evolution is astounding, and i presume that the only thing you really know about it is gleemed from your own church propaganda. This quote is particularly ridiculous "Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth" Replace 'evolution in that sentance with religion and you have a point.Religion is a man man unproven idea, evolution is not. Its the result of masses of tried and tested observable evidence. One thing religion totally lacks, evidence. Evolution is true whether it fits in with your silly basless fairly tale or not. As for the bible mentioning dinosaurs i believe you refer to the Behemoth in the book of Job? This is very much open to debate and is not proven in any way to be refering to dinosaurs. If the bible was refering to dinosaurs why are they not mentioned in the creation story? seeing as they played such a major part, they inhabited this planet for millions of years longer than humans ever have. Tony try watching the Jerry Coyne lecture on You Tube 'Why Evolution is true' it may help you from looking like a fool in future and you might learn something. andyandyandy

8:14am Fri 3 Jan 14

garston tony says...

LSC wrote:
Tony, I accept, respect and believe you found your faith in your own way, you have told me so before and I believe you. But you have to agree that the huge majority did not. My wife was taught by nuns; you think they encouraged discussion of Hindu philosophy, just in case it was a path she might wish to take? No, they told her she might be going to HELL for even asking about it. In fact she was told she was going to hell from about the age of 4 to 18, unless she did what she was told, loved the baby jeebus and the virgin Mary. I was forbidden from marrying her, by the priest, unless I agreed that our children would be raised as catholic. I lied. Any kids of mine can be anything they want, and lying to a priest was no hardship, he'd done it long enough to everyone else. He actually wasn't a stupid man, and knew I was lying. He told me so. We both laughed as I swore on the bible. But he married us anyway, and so much for his principals, but no doubt the wedding fee and collection plate eased his spiritual angst for my, and my children's souls. That is pretty much the pattern for all religions. C of E is the most embarrassing because it is even documented when and why it was made up. They don't even try to hide the fact it was all made up. But it is probably amoung the least harmless.
LSC, I cant comment on wether nuns would have taught about other religions as i've had no experience of their teachings. I do know however that I have visited Christian Schools that make a point of teaching about other world faiths as well as evolution and big bang and it is wrong for you to look at the experiences of a few and claim that that is the same for everyone. Most children of Christian parents attend state schools where they are taught overwhelmingly that evolution and big bang is true for instance.

What those nuns did I find terrible, however regardless of what they said their words never took away your wifes freedom of choice to at some point investigate Christianity, challenge what she had been taught and decide if it was for her or not. Everyone has that freedom regardless of what they were told growing up, if people choose not to act on their freedom then that is their choice just as it is the choice of a child who was brought up to believe in evolution and big bang to not challenge that belief when they are older.

Inertia in people exists everywhere but one of the central principals of Christianity is freedom of choice. God does not force us to believe in Him, He gives us the choice to follow Him or not and people who try and force others to believe in God are going against His wishes. Its people lack of knowledge that makes them think the way you do as you and many others are unable to distinguish between what people do and what God and Jesus want us to do. All that wrong impression could be dispelled with a short Bible study.

Just because the origins of the CofE were to suit the needs of Henry the 8th doesnt mean that Christianity is made up. I've said this so many times that you have to seperate what people do for their own ends and what the true faith is about.
[quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: Tony, I accept, respect and believe you found your faith in your own way, you have told me so before and I believe you. But you have to agree that the huge majority did not. My wife was taught by nuns; you think they encouraged discussion of Hindu philosophy, just in case it was a path she might wish to take? No, they told her she might be going to HELL for even asking about it. In fact she was told she was going to hell from about the age of 4 to 18, unless she did what she was told, loved the baby jeebus and the virgin Mary. I was forbidden from marrying her, by the priest, unless I agreed that our children would be raised as catholic. I lied. Any kids of mine can be anything they want, and lying to a priest was no hardship, he'd done it long enough to everyone else. He actually wasn't a stupid man, and knew I was lying. He told me so. We both laughed as I swore on the bible. But he married us anyway, and so much for his principals, but no doubt the wedding fee and collection plate eased his spiritual angst for my, and my children's souls. That is pretty much the pattern for all religions. C of E is the most embarrassing because it is even documented when and why it was made up. They don't even try to hide the fact it was all made up. But it is probably amoung the least harmless.[/p][/quote]LSC, I cant comment on wether nuns would have taught about other religions as i've had no experience of their teachings. I do know however that I have visited Christian Schools that make a point of teaching about other world faiths as well as evolution and big bang and it is wrong for you to look at the experiences of a few and claim that that is the same for everyone. Most children of Christian parents attend state schools where they are taught overwhelmingly that evolution and big bang is true for instance. What those nuns did I find terrible, however regardless of what they said their words never took away your wifes freedom of choice to at some point investigate Christianity, challenge what she had been taught and decide if it was for her or not. Everyone has that freedom regardless of what they were told growing up, if people choose not to act on their freedom then that is their choice just as it is the choice of a child who was brought up to believe in evolution and big bang to not challenge that belief when they are older. Inertia in people exists everywhere but one of the central principals of Christianity is freedom of choice. God does not force us to believe in Him, He gives us the choice to follow Him or not and people who try and force others to believe in God are going against His wishes. Its people lack of knowledge that makes them think the way you do as you and many others are unable to distinguish between what people do and what God and Jesus want us to do. All that wrong impression could be dispelled with a short Bible study. Just because the origins of the CofE were to suit the needs of Henry the 8th doesnt mean that Christianity is made up. I've said this so many times that you have to seperate what people do for their own ends and what the true faith is about. garston tony

8:31am Fri 3 Jan 14

garston tony says...

andyandyandy wrote:
Tony reading your comments proves exactly why children should be kept away from religion and exactly why its brainwashing. Your ignorance of evolution is astounding, and i presume that the only thing you really know about it is gleemed from your own church propaganda. This quote is particularly ridiculous "Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth" Replace 'evolution in that sentance with religion and you have a point.Religion is a man man unproven idea, evolution is not. Its the result of masses of tried and tested observable evidence. One thing religion totally lacks, evidence. Evolution is true whether it fits in with your silly basless fairly tale or not. As for the bible mentioning dinosaurs i believe you refer to the Behemoth in the book of Job? This is very much open to debate and is not proven in any way to be refering to dinosaurs. If the bible was refering to dinosaurs why are they not mentioned in the creation story? seeing as they played such a major part, they inhabited this planet for millions of years longer than humans ever have. Tony try watching the Jerry Coyne lecture on You Tube 'Why Evolution is true' it may help you from looking like a fool in future and you might learn something.
Andyandyandy, maybe you should learn to read properly as I would refer you to popeonaropes post where he made the statement that teaching religion to children was tantamount to abuse. I was making the point that the same could therefore be said of teaching evolutionary theory. Oh, and i'm very well aware of the meaning of that word in the scientific context thank you very much.

I love the fact you call religion man made and in the next breath call evolution true. The majority of evolution theory is acknowledged to be man made, with a little bit of research you could probably take any part of that theory and name the person who came up with it and when you 'pr@t'. You can also find out the previous man made theories on that subject that were held up as the 'truth' at some point before they were discovered to be wrong.

All I can say is thank you for proving my point as you hold a strong belief in evolution along with a strong anti religious bent yet seemingly/obviously no nothing about either.
[quote][p][bold]andyandyandy[/bold] wrote: Tony reading your comments proves exactly why children should be kept away from religion and exactly why its brainwashing. Your ignorance of evolution is astounding, and i presume that the only thing you really know about it is gleemed from your own church propaganda. This quote is particularly ridiculous "Teaching evolution to children that have no capacity for rational thought is tantamount to abuse as man made unproven ideas are taught as the truth" Replace 'evolution in that sentance with religion and you have a point.Religion is a man man unproven idea, evolution is not. Its the result of masses of tried and tested observable evidence. One thing religion totally lacks, evidence. Evolution is true whether it fits in with your silly basless fairly tale or not. As for the bible mentioning dinosaurs i believe you refer to the Behemoth in the book of Job? This is very much open to debate and is not proven in any way to be refering to dinosaurs. If the bible was refering to dinosaurs why are they not mentioned in the creation story? seeing as they played such a major part, they inhabited this planet for millions of years longer than humans ever have. Tony try watching the Jerry Coyne lecture on You Tube 'Why Evolution is true' it may help you from looking like a fool in future and you might learn something.[/p][/quote]Andyandyandy, maybe you should learn to read properly as I would refer you to popeonaropes post where he made the statement that teaching religion to children was tantamount to abuse. I was making the point that the same could therefore be said of teaching evolutionary theory. Oh, and i'm very well aware of the meaning of that word in the scientific context thank you very much. I love the fact you call religion man made and in the next breath call evolution true. The majority of evolution theory is acknowledged to be man made, with a little bit of research you could probably take any part of that theory and name the person who came up with it and when you 'pr@t'. You can also find out the previous man made theories on that subject that were held up as the 'truth' at some point before they were discovered to be wrong. All I can say is thank you for proving my point as you hold a strong belief in evolution along with a strong anti religious bent yet seemingly/obviously no nothing about either. garston tony

8:45am Fri 3 Jan 14

andyandyandy says...

Tony you are clearly a total idiot. Evoultion is true as its supported by masses of evidence. Not man made, but observable tested and confirmed evidence. Non of those things support religious belief. If they did we would not have multiple religions but only one.
Tony you are clearly a total idiot. Evoultion is true as its supported by masses of evidence. Not man made, but observable tested and confirmed evidence. Non of those things support religious belief. If they did we would not have multiple religions but only one. andyandyandy

8:51am Fri 3 Jan 14

andyandyandy says...

1.The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
•Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
•Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
•Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
•Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.


2.The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).


3.Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.


4.If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.


5.Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless
1.The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts: •Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago; •Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history; •Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors; •Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change. Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well. 2.The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003). 3.Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact. 4.If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact. 5.Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless andyandyandy

11:17am Fri 3 Jan 14

garston tony says...

Andy, it is a fact that the majority of evolutionary theory is man made. It is a fact that it is continually having to be changed because the 'facts' are constantly being disproved. It is a fact that somewhere out there there is a record of those that made up those 'facts' as well as a record of those that made up previous 'facts' that turned out to be untrue.

There is a difference between micro evolution and macro evolution.

Evolution as you would like to believe it is not a fact, it is at best only an opinion. As for big bang the actual evidence for that is even more lacking to be almost non existent. Just because science can not prove, or disprove, the existence of a God does not mean there isnt one. Once again it is hypocritical to say there is no scientific evidence for God yet believe in man made theories about big bang/evolution. None of the observable, tested (ie real/true/actually factual) scientific knowledge contradicts the Bible and it actually usually supports it.

You persist with your untenable view yet its people like me that are idiots, thanks once again for proving my point
Andy, it is a fact that the majority of evolutionary theory is man made. It is a fact that it is continually having to be changed because the 'facts' are constantly being disproved. It is a fact that somewhere out there there is a record of those that made up those 'facts' as well as a record of those that made up previous 'facts' that turned out to be untrue. There is a difference between micro evolution and macro evolution. Evolution as you would like to believe it is not a fact, it is at best only an opinion. As for big bang the actual evidence for that is even more lacking to be almost non existent. Just because science can not prove, or disprove, the existence of a God does not mean there isnt one. Once again it is hypocritical to say there is no scientific evidence for God yet believe in man made theories about big bang/evolution. None of the observable, tested (ie real/true/actually factual) scientific knowledge contradicts the Bible and it actually usually supports it. You persist with your untenable view yet its people like me that are idiots, thanks once again for proving my point garston tony

4:07pm Fri 3 Jan 14

Popeonarope says...

Tonys interpretations are laughable for their obvious lack of detail or alternative meanings. Such descriptions are lost in translation, made even more spurious by sheer vagueness in general.
The bible is full of vague references, obscure stories and irrelevant information. It is little wonder those who believe this tosh are the teachings of god can find some meaning and relevance to project onto the modern world.
Its legacy however, is one of oppression, fear, intolerance, intimidation and horror.
While it is all the above things and more, it is not evidence for such outrageous claims contained within. No amount of denial will convince anyone who is not already predisposed to this nonsense that it is anything but the collection of writings of a primitive, superstitious and fearful people from ages past.

Science provides evidence, backed up by research and explanations that can be verified. If some part of the explanation is unclear scientists do not 'magic up' the answer and proclaim a big sky fairy is responsible.

I say again teaching this to children is child abuse. Threatening children with the retribution of a all powerful deity if they misbehave or describing a very frighting hell for them is not the actions of a caring organisation. I appreciate this is not a standard now, but equally convincing them that faith is more important than education is retarding their development. Teaching them that all the ridiculous prohibitions in the bible will endanger their immortality if they are broken is cruel and should not be tolerated in a modern society.

I have traveled in many parts of the world from the US to Asia to the middle east. I have seen first hand the corruption, falsification, threats and intimidation used en mass to propagate the existence of the theist regimes. No doubt, Tony will say this is down to individuals personal gains, but the churches existence makes this possible. Without the church organisations the mechanisms for control and extortion would be removed.

Encouragement and / or attempts to educate and improve the lives of the masses have been actively blocked by the various churches. Medical help, education and vaccination programs were treated with contempt - all because a critical thinking, educated population threatens their existence.

Im sure this new Pastor means well but his method for providing for the congregation is out of date, misguided and encourages the mind to reject reality for fanciful wish thinking.
Tonys interpretations are laughable for their obvious lack of detail or alternative meanings. Such descriptions are lost in translation, made even more spurious by sheer vagueness in general. The bible is full of vague references, obscure stories and irrelevant information. It is little wonder those who believe this tosh are the teachings of god can find some meaning and relevance to project onto the modern world. Its legacy however, is one of oppression, fear, intolerance, intimidation and horror. While it is all the above things and more, it is not evidence for such outrageous claims contained within. No amount of denial will convince anyone who is not already predisposed to this nonsense that it is anything but the collection of writings of a primitive, superstitious and fearful people from ages past. Science provides evidence, backed up by research and explanations that can be verified. If some part of the explanation is unclear scientists do not 'magic up' the answer and proclaim a big sky fairy is responsible. I say again teaching this to children is child abuse. Threatening children with the retribution of a all powerful deity if they misbehave or describing a very frighting hell for them is not the actions of a caring organisation. I appreciate this is not a standard now, but equally convincing them that faith is more important than education is retarding their development. Teaching them that all the ridiculous prohibitions in the bible will endanger their immortality if they are broken is cruel and should not be tolerated in a modern society. I have traveled in many parts of the world from the US to Asia to the middle east. I have seen first hand the corruption, falsification, threats and intimidation used en mass to propagate the existence of the theist regimes. No doubt, Tony will say this is down to individuals personal gains, but the churches existence makes this possible. Without the church organisations the mechanisms for control and extortion would be removed. Encouragement and / or attempts to educate and improve the lives of the masses have been actively blocked by the various churches. Medical help, education and vaccination programs were treated with contempt - all because a critical thinking, educated population threatens their existence. Im sure this new Pastor means well but his method for providing for the congregation is out of date, misguided and encourages the mind to reject reality for fanciful wish thinking. Popeonarope

4:21pm Fri 3 Jan 14

LSC says...

Tony, you might be right for you, but wrong for the rest of the world. Religion is a global evil and uses a fist of steel to keep its strength.
You calmly say any 16 year old can make a choice. For real? Ask a girl in a village near Kabul about her choices. (Actually you wouldn't be able to, they are forbidden, by religion used as a weapon, to talk to the likes of us).
Ask an African 16 year old of their choices.
Closer to home, visit Derry/Londonderry , or Belfast and see if the 16 year olds think they might like to be muslims or hindus instead of catholics or protestants. Then take a careful count of their kneecaps.
Even closer to home, we have honour killings and acid attacks on young girls daring to break free.
The local Jewish school, not two miles from me has barbed wire and guards to protect it. They are just kids, but because of what they have been told they are, and what others label them, before they can learn all the facts and make a choice they are considered in danger.
How does that fit your theory of free thinking?
Tony, you might be right for you, but wrong for the rest of the world. Religion is a global evil and uses a fist of steel to keep its strength. You calmly say any 16 year old can make a choice. For real? Ask a girl in a village near Kabul about her choices. (Actually you wouldn't be able to, they are forbidden, by religion used as a weapon, to talk to the likes of us). Ask an African 16 year old of their choices. Closer to home, visit Derry/Londonderry , or Belfast and see if the 16 year olds think they might like to be muslims or hindus instead of catholics or protestants. Then take a careful count of their kneecaps. Even closer to home, we have honour killings and acid attacks on young girls daring to break free. The local Jewish school, not two miles from me has barbed wire and guards to protect it. They are just kids, but because of what they have been told they are, and what others label them, before they can learn all the facts and make a choice they are considered in danger. How does that fit your theory of free thinking? LSC

2:53pm Wed 8 Jan 14

garston tony says...

Once again I can only chuckle at your hypocritical comments aaa.

In regards evolutionary theory scientists may not refer to a magic sky fairy when they hit some unknown but they do quite literally make things up. Often there are even competing ideas and on a regular basis science itself disproves what it previously believed, at which point some scientists comes up with yet another man made idea on how x, y or z happened.

You really have to be an utter fool to dispute this aaa like you do!

The Bible on the other hand has not changed, and for your information as you are totally ignorant on the matter it does not call for people to be oppressive, intolerant, intimidating etc to others. In fact it says to be the exact opposite, the central message of Jesus was to love each other. You have totally failed to recognise that it is people that do bad things regardless of what their personal beliefs might be, and any given Church is NOT Gods word.

I am continually calling for people to study a particular subject for themselves, that includes the Bible. If people did they would quickly be able to distinguish what people/churches do which is following Gods word or not.

You are also so out of date with your opinions, take the Seventh Day Adventist church itself which runs tens of thousands of schools around the world, thousands of hospitals and medical clinics as well as a major NGO which provides emergency aid and development aid in hundreds of countries and all of these things are open to people regardless of their faith, their race, their gender and gender bias. Christians are all for education and they are all for the provision of medical support to those that need it.

As for your last comment unless you know this new pastor it is also a total load of tosh.



LSC you are once again confusing cultural issues with religious. I've not been to Afghanistan but i've been to Muslim countries and i've been to Africa and I have talked to the locals young and old and if women are oppressed it is for cultural reasons that existed even before the religion came to those areas. You just have to look at the Muslim countries for instance where women are not treated as second call citizens, indeed there have been women as heads of state in some.
Once again I can only chuckle at your hypocritical comments aaa. In regards evolutionary theory scientists may not refer to a magic sky fairy when they hit some unknown but they do quite literally make things up. Often there are even competing ideas and on a regular basis science itself disproves what it previously believed, at which point some scientists comes up with yet another man made idea on how x, y or z happened. You really have to be an utter fool to dispute this aaa like you do! The Bible on the other hand has not changed, and for your information as you are totally ignorant on the matter it does not call for people to be oppressive, intolerant, intimidating etc to others. In fact it says to be the exact opposite, the central message of Jesus was to love each other. You have totally failed to recognise that it is people that do bad things regardless of what their personal beliefs might be, and any given Church is NOT Gods word. I am continually calling for people to study a particular subject for themselves, that includes the Bible. If people did they would quickly be able to distinguish what people/churches do which is following Gods word or not. You are also so out of date with your opinions, take the Seventh Day Adventist church itself which runs tens of thousands of schools around the world, thousands of hospitals and medical clinics as well as a major NGO which provides emergency aid and development aid in hundreds of countries and all of these things are open to people regardless of their faith, their race, their gender and gender bias. Christians are all for education and they are all for the provision of medical support to those that need it. As for your last comment unless you know this new pastor it is also a total load of tosh. LSC you are once again confusing cultural issues with religious. I've not been to Afghanistan but i've been to Muslim countries and i've been to Africa and I have talked to the locals young and old and if women are oppressed it is for cultural reasons that existed even before the religion came to those areas. You just have to look at the Muslim countries for instance where women are not treated as second call citizens, indeed there have been women as heads of state in some. garston tony

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