Maple Cross woman, Judy Alexander, ordered to repay more than £11k benefits she falsely claimed

Watford Observer: St Albans Magistrates' Court. St Albans Magistrates' Court.

A Maple Cross woman falsely claimed more than £11,000 in benefits after finding employment, a court heard.

Judy Alexander, of Oakhill Road, was caught out after investigators discovered she had been receiving income support, Job Seekers Allowance, Council Tax and housing benefit after failing to disclose her employment and income with a number of organisations.

Appearing at St Albans Magistrates’ Court on December 12, the 52-year-old was sentenced to a community order with a curfew and ordered to repay £11,572.66 of falsely claimed benefits.

She was further ordered to pay £90 court costs along with a £15 victim surcharge.

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11:48pm Mon 13 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

Looking at the virtually punishment free sentence, I almost wonder why everyone in the entire country doesn't claim benefits.

If she hadn't been caught, this woman would be more than eleven grand better off. Unlucky for her, she has to pay it back. The punishment element though is laughable: £105, a community order and a curfew. Wow, that will really terrify any other cheats out there!

As for those who are tracking down benefit swindlers, it would be better for taxpayers if they just stopped. The operations costs us more money than we ever get back from offenders who get caught, whilst the sentencing is no deterrent to other fraudsters. So what's the point?

The whole so called justice system is a joke and we're the ones paying for thieves to have a laugh at our expense.
Looking at the virtually punishment free sentence, I almost wonder why everyone in the entire country doesn't claim benefits. If she hadn't been caught, this woman would be more than eleven grand better off. Unlucky for her, she has to pay it back. The punishment element though is laughable: £105, a community order and a curfew. Wow, that will really terrify any other cheats out there! As for those who are tracking down benefit swindlers, it would be better for taxpayers if they just stopped. The operations costs us more money than we ever get back from offenders who get caught, whilst the sentencing is no deterrent to other fraudsters. So what's the point? The whole so called justice system is a joke and we're the ones paying for thieves to have a laugh at our expense. D_Penn
  • Score: 4

3:39am Tue 14 Jan 14

Honest Rog says...

What a non-news story! This happened on Dec. 12th so appears as a "news" item on err........Jan 14th the next year. Still; it'll give the Daily Wail readers a chance to trot out their hysterical dogmatic platitudes in their war on "benefit cheats" whilst conveniently ignoring the real pillagers of our nation, viz, the corrupt banking "industry", the corrupt energy suppliers and the "privatised" rail operators (last time I looked, they were being given more of our taxes than when rail was nationalised). Compared to the aforementioned, benefit fraud constitutes a minuscule amount. That's not to say that it's right to falsely claim benefits but there's usually a good human reason for each individual case. Sadly, the "news article" is somewhat short on any such detail.
What a non-news story! This happened on Dec. 12th so appears as a "news" item on err........Jan 14th the next year. Still; it'll give the Daily Wail readers a chance to trot out their hysterical dogmatic platitudes in their war on "benefit cheats" whilst conveniently ignoring the real pillagers of our nation, viz, the corrupt banking "industry", the corrupt energy suppliers and the "privatised" rail operators (last time I looked, they were being given more of our taxes than when rail was nationalised). Compared to the aforementioned, benefit fraud constitutes a minuscule amount. That's not to say that it's right to falsely claim benefits but there's usually a good human reason for each individual case. Sadly, the "news article" is somewhat short on any such detail. Honest Rog
  • Score: -11

8:21am Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Honest Rog wrote:
What a non-news story! This happened on Dec. 12th so appears as a "news" item on err........Jan 14th the next year. Still; it'll give the Daily Wail readers a chance to trot out their hysterical dogmatic platitudes in their war on "benefit cheats" whilst conveniently ignoring the real pillagers of our nation, viz, the corrupt banking "industry", the corrupt energy suppliers and the "privatised" rail operators (last time I looked, they were being given more of our taxes than when rail was nationalised). Compared to the aforementioned, benefit fraud constitutes a minuscule amount. That's not to say that it's right to falsely claim benefits but there's usually a good human reason for each individual case. Sadly, the "news article" is somewhat short on any such detail.
You're right Honest Rog, there is normally a good human reason why people commit benefit fraud.

It's called greed.

People think they will get away with it and that even if they get caught they will get off extremely lightly as far as fines and punishment are concerned. They are, sadly, quite right.

So many people get benefit nowadays, even those in work and earning a wage that there really is no excuse for defrauding the benefits system. It's greed and stupidity, pure and simple.

And it's about time people stopped making excuses for what are, by the law and also moral standards, criminals.

£11,500 is a fair sum to be stolen from us. A fine would normally have been in order to deter others.
[quote][p][bold]Honest Rog[/bold] wrote: What a non-news story! This happened on Dec. 12th so appears as a "news" item on err........Jan 14th the next year. Still; it'll give the Daily Wail readers a chance to trot out their hysterical dogmatic platitudes in their war on "benefit cheats" whilst conveniently ignoring the real pillagers of our nation, viz, the corrupt banking "industry", the corrupt energy suppliers and the "privatised" rail operators (last time I looked, they were being given more of our taxes than when rail was nationalised). Compared to the aforementioned, benefit fraud constitutes a minuscule amount. That's not to say that it's right to falsely claim benefits but there's usually a good human reason for each individual case. Sadly, the "news article" is somewhat short on any such detail.[/p][/quote]You're right Honest Rog, there is normally a good human reason why people commit benefit fraud. It's called greed. People think they will get away with it and that even if they get caught they will get off extremely lightly as far as fines and punishment are concerned. They are, sadly, quite right. So many people get benefit nowadays, even those in work and earning a wage that there really is no excuse for defrauding the benefits system. It's greed and stupidity, pure and simple. And it's about time people stopped making excuses for what are, by the law and also moral standards, criminals. £11,500 is a fair sum to be stolen from us. A fine would normally have been in order to deter others. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 4

8:34am Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
prof positive that every single benefit recipient is on the fiddle why. I reckon if you look at all those old age pensioners you'll find that half of them are Romanians, over here on the fiddle; and the other half aren't even old.

vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense
What twaddle, that's poor even for the Labour party and I hope everyone sees it for what it really is.

This story is merely proof that some people, I hope a tiny minority, are fiddling benefits and trying to get away with it.

Why don't you, in clear and simple words condemn this particular benefit fraud in your next comment?

If you don't have a problem with benefit fraudsters then we know that Labour is the party of the benefit fiddlers.

"Vote Labour, fiddle the benefits system" - is that your new motto?

After all we saw how your party managed to fill their boots in the parliamentary MP expenses scandal, with some going to jail and others conveniently being too ill and therefore skipping their prison sentences. Margaret Moran claimed the second-highest expenses in 2004-05 of £168,569. She was only the MP for Luton, not the outer hebrides. How on earth did a Labour MP think that was acceptable? I can only conclude it was greed and stupidity, the same as any other fraudster.

UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud.

For a party that so far is only losing 10-15% of voters to UKIP, you are certainly running scared of UKIP. What have you got to worry about?
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: prof positive that every single benefit recipient is on the fiddle why. I reckon if you look at all those old age pensioners you'll find that half of them are Romanians, over here on the fiddle; and the other half aren't even old. vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense[/p][/quote]What twaddle, that's poor even for the Labour party and I hope everyone sees it for what it really is. This story is merely proof that some people, I hope a tiny minority, are fiddling benefits and trying to get away with it. Why don't you, in clear and simple words condemn this particular benefit fraud in your next comment? If you don't have a problem with benefit fraudsters then we know that Labour is the party of the benefit fiddlers. "Vote Labour, fiddle the benefits system" - is that your new motto? After all we saw how your party managed to fill their boots in the parliamentary MP expenses scandal, with some going to jail and others conveniently being too ill and therefore skipping their prison sentences. Margaret Moran claimed the second-highest expenses in 2004-05 of £168,569. She was only the MP for Luton, not the outer hebrides. How on earth did a Labour MP think that was acceptable? I can only conclude it was greed and stupidity, the same as any other fraudster. UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud. For a party that so far is only losing 10-15% of voters to UKIP, you are certainly running scared of UKIP. What have you got to worry about? Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 7

9:02am Tue 14 Jan 14

WatfordBandB says...

"UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud."

Thank you for cheering me up, that is the funniest thing i have read this year and to continue this hysterical master piece, you actually believe that!!!!!
"UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud." Thank you for cheering me up, that is the funniest thing i have read this year and to continue this hysterical master piece, you actually believe that!!!!! WatfordBandB
  • Score: -2

9:55am Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

WatfordBandB wrote:
"UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud."

Thank you for cheering me up, that is the funniest thing i have read this year and to continue this hysterical master piece, you actually believe that!!!!!
Instead of stating your beliefs in ignorance, come to a UKIP meeting. There you will find a glorious mix of ex-Labour, ex-Liberal and ex-Conservative supporters all working together to try to get UK politics back to doing a proper job for the people of this country.

We were all sick and tired of the lies and self-serving attitudes of those running the old main parties and could no longer stand by and watch while the careerists lined their pockets whilst incompetently destroying so much of Britains wealth. That's why UKIP is the only growing party while the others shrink.

You can see from the comments here that some delusional people are part of disaster Britain. They do not want benefit cheats punished because of the 'human' stories. Well, everyone has problems, but proud, honest people do not resort to thievery. Yet these good people are being robbed by those who selfishly think that their problems are more important than everyone elses. What makes these people think they are more special than others?

What makes those here think it's okay not to properly punish these people because they believe an individual's problems justifies criminality? It's muddled thinking like this that has resulted in all political parties effectively becoming the criminals' friends.
[quote][p][bold]WatfordBandB[/bold] wrote: "UKIP is a fine and honourable party. We do not condone benefit fraud or indeed any other types of fraud." Thank you for cheering me up, that is the funniest thing i have read this year and to continue this hysterical master piece, you actually believe that!!!!![/p][/quote]Instead of stating your beliefs in ignorance, come to a UKIP meeting. There you will find a glorious mix of ex-Labour, ex-Liberal and ex-Conservative supporters all working together to try to get UK politics back to doing a proper job for the people of this country. We were all sick and tired of the lies and self-serving attitudes of those running the old main parties and could no longer stand by and watch while the careerists lined their pockets whilst incompetently destroying so much of Britains wealth. That's why UKIP is the only growing party while the others shrink. You can see from the comments here that some delusional people are part of disaster Britain. They do not want benefit cheats punished because of the 'human' stories. Well, everyone has problems, but proud, honest people do not resort to thievery. Yet these good people are being robbed by those who selfishly think that their problems are more important than everyone elses. What makes these people think they are more special than others? What makes those here think it's okay not to properly punish these people because they believe an individual's problems justifies criminality? It's muddled thinking like this that has resulted in all political parties effectively becoming the criminals' friends. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

10:31am Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud.

But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one
Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense
I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense dontknowynot
  • Score: 0

10:55am Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

dontknowynot wrote:
I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense
UKIP is not Tory! The vast majority of UKIP members I meet come from right across the political spectrum. Most agree that there had never been a party that has been right for them until UKIP came along. The party is filling up with ordinary people. We are not wealthy people. We are not wedded to failed political ideologies of left or right. We are pragmatists who want to make Britain better for all regardless of where people live, their race, creed or colour. I would not have joined UKIP had it been anything else!

You might also be surprised to learn that In the North, most of the support UKIP is getting is coming from Labour, not Conservatives, and most activists in those areas are ex-Labour/ Lib Dem supporters.

As for our tax policy, remember we are committed to smaller government and no EU. That will save a fortune and that will help us achieve our aim to make sure everyone pays less tax overall. When did anyone hear of Labour ever aiming to reduce taxation?

Where MEP's are concerned I'm happy to admit we have had a few deserters. That's understandable because a few were piqued that they would not be reselected as now that the party is very much bigger we have some new very good candidates. UKIP operates as a meritocracy, requiring proper assessments and interviews, so that the best appear at the top, not those selected by the public school they went to or the unions that back them. Ours is the best way to make sure the country gets people who can do the job for Britain onto the top table.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense[/p][/quote]UKIP is not Tory! The vast majority of UKIP members I meet come from right across the political spectrum. Most agree that there had never been a party that has been right for them until UKIP came along. The party is filling up with ordinary people. We are not wealthy people. We are not wedded to failed political ideologies of left or right. We are pragmatists who want to make Britain better for all regardless of where people live, their race, creed or colour. I would not have joined UKIP had it been anything else! You might also be surprised to learn that In the North, most of the support UKIP is getting is coming from Labour, not Conservatives, and most activists in those areas are ex-Labour/ Lib Dem supporters. As for our tax policy, remember we are committed to smaller government and no EU. That will save a fortune and that will help us achieve our aim to make sure everyone pays less tax overall. When did anyone hear of Labour ever aiming to reduce taxation? Where MEP's are concerned I'm happy to admit we have had a few deserters. That's understandable because a few were piqued that they would not be reselected as now that the party is very much bigger we have some new very good candidates. UKIP operates as a meritocracy, requiring proper assessments and interviews, so that the best appear at the top, not those selected by the public school they went to or the unions that back them. Ours is the best way to make sure the country gets people who can do the job for Britain onto the top table. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

11:01am Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense
That is reassuring to hear, Labour denouncing benefit frauds.

It's a shame you then go on to say UKIP is a fraud.

UKIP is not a fraud in any sense, no matter how many times you say it and no matter how much you would like it to be true, or more importantly no matter how much you would like people to believe you when you say it.

People used to listen to and believe these lies but time has moved on and people now recognise these are just baseless slurs from our worried political opponents. I'm surprised you still persist with such slurs, it looks desperate and I'm sure the Labour party is not that desperate locally, is it?

UKIP appeals to voters from across the political spectrum and many that have given up voting for lack of choice or any party to believe in. People are supporting UKIP because of our common-sense approach to solving problems and our strainghtforward no-nonsense plain speaking.

UKIP is full of people who are fed up with the failed old parties and their failed old ways of doing things, of lying to the electorate and not trusting the people. The three old failed parties treat people like sheep. We in UKIP view people as equals and we believe in listening to the people and letting them have their say. Contrast that with your slimy Mandelson who yesterday basically said we must stay in the EU and that we the electorate are too thick and stupid to be trusted to have a vote on it. Isn't that a fantastic example of the contempt in which the Labour party hierarchy hold the people of this country? Whilst you have people like that in your party, and elevated to be a Lord of all things, your party does not deserve a single vote from anyone with one iota of intelligence. You need to weed out such people and prove you have changed or the electorate will punish you for it.

UKIP is a completely new way of running the country. It's called "Running the country for the good of everyone whilst keeping control of spending". You should try it sometime. If you can't get your own party to do it, join UKIP. Lots of other Labour supporters have.

As you can see, voting UKIP makes a good deal of sense.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense[/p][/quote]That is reassuring to hear, Labour denouncing benefit frauds. It's a shame you then go on to say UKIP is a fraud. UKIP is not a fraud in any sense, no matter how many times you say it and no matter how much you would like it to be true, or more importantly no matter how much you would like people to believe you when you say it. People used to listen to and believe these lies but time has moved on and people now recognise these are just baseless slurs from our worried political opponents. I'm surprised you still persist with such slurs, it looks desperate and I'm sure the Labour party is not that desperate locally, is it? UKIP appeals to voters from across the political spectrum and many that have given up voting for lack of choice or any party to believe in. People are supporting UKIP because of our common-sense approach to solving problems and our strainghtforward no-nonsense plain speaking. UKIP is full of people who are fed up with the failed old parties and their failed old ways of doing things, of lying to the electorate and not trusting the people. The three old failed parties treat people like sheep. We in UKIP view people as equals and we believe in listening to the people and letting them have their say. Contrast that with your slimy Mandelson who yesterday basically said we must stay in the EU and that we the electorate are too thick and stupid to be trusted to have a vote on it. Isn't that a fantastic example of the contempt in which the Labour party hierarchy hold the people of this country? Whilst you have people like that in your party, and elevated to be a Lord of all things, your party does not deserve a single vote from anyone with one iota of intelligence. You need to weed out such people and prove you have changed or the electorate will punish you for it. UKIP is a completely new way of running the country. It's called "Running the country for the good of everyone whilst keeping control of spending". You should try it sometime. If you can't get your own party to do it, join UKIP. Lots of other Labour supporters have. As you can see, voting UKIP makes a good deal of sense. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

11:21am Tue 14 Jan 14

garston tony says...

Honestrog, two wrongs dont make a right. Just because some bankers have cost us all in one way or another that doesnt excuse someone trying to fiddle benefits either.

Phil Cox, UKIP dont condone fraud? Someone must have forgotten to tell your MEP who got done for it then. I'm sure you're members on the whole want to do the right thing, but that applies on the whole to most people involved in politics. UKIP, just like all other parties, is made up of people some of whom by pure nature of statistics wont be above board. Saddly on the whole you are a poor advert for the party as mostly all you do is jump on bandwagons which pretty much makes you on parr with a lot of other politicians of different colours

D Penn, is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back
Honestrog, two wrongs dont make a right. Just because some bankers have cost us all in one way or another that doesnt excuse someone trying to fiddle benefits either. Phil Cox, UKIP dont condone fraud? Someone must have forgotten to tell your MEP who got done for it then. I'm sure you're members on the whole want to do the right thing, but that applies on the whole to most people involved in politics. UKIP, just like all other parties, is made up of people some of whom by pure nature of statistics wont be above board. Saddly on the whole you are a poor advert for the party as mostly all you do is jump on bandwagons which pretty much makes you on parr with a lot of other politicians of different colours D Penn, is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back garston tony
  • Score: 2

11:23am Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
dontknowynot wrote:
I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense
That is reassuring to hear, Labour denouncing benefit frauds.

It's a shame you then go on to say UKIP is a fraud.

UKIP is not a fraud in any sense, no matter how many times you say it and no matter how much you would like it to be true, or more importantly no matter how much you would like people to believe you when you say it.

People used to listen to and believe these lies but time has moved on and people now recognise these are just baseless slurs from our worried political opponents. I'm surprised you still persist with such slurs, it looks desperate and I'm sure the Labour party is not that desperate locally, is it?

UKIP appeals to voters from across the political spectrum and many that have given up voting for lack of choice or any party to believe in. People are supporting UKIP because of our common-sense approach to solving problems and our strainghtforward no-nonsense plain speaking.

UKIP is full of people who are fed up with the failed old parties and their failed old ways of doing things, of lying to the electorate and not trusting the people. The three old failed parties treat people like sheep. We in UKIP view people as equals and we believe in listening to the people and letting them have their say. Contrast that with your slimy Mandelson who yesterday basically said we must stay in the EU and that we the electorate are too thick and stupid to be trusted to have a vote on it. Isn't that a fantastic example of the contempt in which the Labour party hierarchy hold the people of this country? Whilst you have people like that in your party, and elevated to be a Lord of all things, your party does not deserve a single vote from anyone with one iota of intelligence. You need to weed out such people and prove you have changed or the electorate will punish you for it.

UKIP is a completely new way of running the country. It's called "Running the country for the good of everyone whilst keeping control of spending". You should try it sometime. If you can't get your own party to do it, join UKIP. Lots of other Labour supporters have.

As you can see, voting UKIP makes a good deal of sense.
so lets get this straight then I am lying when I say
of the two MEP's elected for Eastern region one now holds the Tory whip

Am I also llying when I say your party had a flat rate tax policy which your leader described as two tier flat tax.

Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: I am quite happy to denounce this person as a Fraud. But so is your party pretending not to be a Tory plus nonsense whats with your partys two tier flat tax policy or getting two MEP's in eastern region and only keeping one Vote UKIP you know it makes nonsense[/p][/quote]That is reassuring to hear, Labour denouncing benefit frauds. It's a shame you then go on to say UKIP is a fraud. UKIP is not a fraud in any sense, no matter how many times you say it and no matter how much you would like it to be true, or more importantly no matter how much you would like people to believe you when you say it. People used to listen to and believe these lies but time has moved on and people now recognise these are just baseless slurs from our worried political opponents. I'm surprised you still persist with such slurs, it looks desperate and I'm sure the Labour party is not that desperate locally, is it? UKIP appeals to voters from across the political spectrum and many that have given up voting for lack of choice or any party to believe in. People are supporting UKIP because of our common-sense approach to solving problems and our strainghtforward no-nonsense plain speaking. UKIP is full of people who are fed up with the failed old parties and their failed old ways of doing things, of lying to the electorate and not trusting the people. The three old failed parties treat people like sheep. We in UKIP view people as equals and we believe in listening to the people and letting them have their say. Contrast that with your slimy Mandelson who yesterday basically said we must stay in the EU and that we the electorate are too thick and stupid to be trusted to have a vote on it. Isn't that a fantastic example of the contempt in which the Labour party hierarchy hold the people of this country? Whilst you have people like that in your party, and elevated to be a Lord of all things, your party does not deserve a single vote from anyone with one iota of intelligence. You need to weed out such people and prove you have changed or the electorate will punish you for it. UKIP is a completely new way of running the country. It's called "Running the country for the good of everyone whilst keeping control of spending". You should try it sometime. If you can't get your own party to do it, join UKIP. Lots of other Labour supporters have. As you can see, voting UKIP makes a good deal of sense.[/p][/quote]so lets get this straight then I am lying when I say of the two MEP's elected for Eastern region one now holds the Tory whip Am I also llying when I say your party had a flat rate tax policy which your leader described as two tier flat tax. Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory dontknowynot
  • Score: 2

11:49am Tue 14 Jan 14

angryangryangry says...

garston tony wrote:
Honestrog, two wrongs dont make a right. Just because some bankers have cost us all in one way or another that doesnt excuse someone trying to fiddle benefits either.

Phil Cox, UKIP dont condone fraud? Someone must have forgotten to tell your MEP who got done for it then. I'm sure you're members on the whole want to do the right thing, but that applies on the whole to most people involved in politics. UKIP, just like all other parties, is made up of people some of whom by pure nature of statistics wont be above board. Saddly on the whole you are a poor advert for the party as mostly all you do is jump on bandwagons which pretty much makes you on parr with a lot of other politicians of different colours

D Penn, is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back
Paying back the £11.5k and £105 seems like a very cheap "loan" to me! Bet no bank or lender would be so cheap. This means that if we want a loan we should go and defraud the system of benefits, maybe won't get caught so would be even cheaper!

It doesn't really deter anyone from doing this does it!? Surely she should have to pay it back with a decent amount of interest to make it more of a deterrent to others!
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Honestrog, two wrongs dont make a right. Just because some bankers have cost us all in one way or another that doesnt excuse someone trying to fiddle benefits either. Phil Cox, UKIP dont condone fraud? Someone must have forgotten to tell your MEP who got done for it then. I'm sure you're members on the whole want to do the right thing, but that applies on the whole to most people involved in politics. UKIP, just like all other parties, is made up of people some of whom by pure nature of statistics wont be above board. Saddly on the whole you are a poor advert for the party as mostly all you do is jump on bandwagons which pretty much makes you on parr with a lot of other politicians of different colours D Penn, is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back[/p][/quote]Paying back the £11.5k and £105 seems like a very cheap "loan" to me! Bet no bank or lender would be so cheap. This means that if we want a loan we should go and defraud the system of benefits, maybe won't get caught so would be even cheaper! It doesn't really deter anyone from doing this does it!? Surely she should have to pay it back with a decent amount of interest to make it more of a deterrent to others! angryangryangry
  • Score: 0

11:52am Tue 14 Jan 14

Boosey says...

Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?
Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living? Boosey
  • Score: 1

12:04pm Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

@Garston Tony

"is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back"

But the £11.5k was what she stole, it was never her money. When she pays that back she's only back where she started before she stole from us. That's not a punishment! If that were the principle of punishment for theft then she might as well go and steal the crown jewels and if she's caught, the only punishment would be that she gives them back. Where is the deterrent against crime?

Honest people will never steal, but there are a good many chancers out there that will steal from others or the state if they think they can get away with it. If they can see that the law has no teeth, it's like rininging the dinner bell for those with no shame.

For these selfish people there must always be a substantial imprisonment threat. If they then make the choice to thieve from the rest of us then, when they wake up every morning looking at a steel door, they have only themselves to blame.

When they come out they should then still have to pay back any money they stole so that the victim or state gets that back too.
@Garston Tony "is not just 105 quid shes got to pay she's got to pay back the £11.5k too which is going to hurt her probably more than a custodial sentence would. I'd rather that than have her chucked in jail at our further expense and be let off paying the money back" But the £11.5k was what she stole, it was never her money. When she pays that back she's only back where she started before she stole from us. That's not a punishment! If that were the principle of punishment for theft then she might as well go and steal the crown jewels and if she's caught, the only punishment would be that she gives them back. Where is the deterrent against crime? Honest people will never steal, but there are a good many chancers out there that will steal from others or the state if they think they can get away with it. If they can see that the law has no teeth, it's like rininging the dinner bell for those with no shame. For these selfish people there must always be a substantial imprisonment threat. If they then make the choice to thieve from the rest of us then, when they wake up every morning looking at a steel door, they have only themselves to blame. When they come out they should then still have to pay back any money they stole so that the victim or state gets that back too. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

12:11pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Right on point 1 & 2, completely wrong on 3.

On point 3, vote UKIP, get UKIP.

Already UKIP drives the political agenda without so much as a single MP, although many MPs believe in the same things UKIP believes in. In time we will have UKIP MPs, quite possibly in 2015.

As far as defections of MEPs go, no political party can stop an elected politician at any level leaving their party. It happens all the time. You know that.

You must remember or know about The Social Democrats (SDP), Labour big-wigs included, left Labour and formed a new party. Then they joined the Liberals. Labour bigwigs joined the Liberals! What's that all about?

For those too young to remember, the SDP were quite popular for a while as a more sensible version of the Labour party.

These inter-party defections happen all the time. That's no reason not to vote for a party, because otherwise that would rule out almost every political party, including yours. Where's the logic in that?

An impartial observer might think your comments sound a bit like sour grapes on your part because UKIP are such a threat to Labour, that your comments are not balanced. After all, the Labour party are quite happy to accept defectors from other parties, not too long ago accepting a Tory MP. History is littered with political party defectors. So what's your point?

"Remember folks, don't vote Labour in case any politicians jump ship. It's happened before, it will happen again". Out of principle would you advise people to not vote Labour for fear of wasting their vote? Is that seriously what you are proposing? I doubt it.

As a different angle for you, instead of this constant sniping from inside your glass house, why not tell people about Labour, what Labour stands for locally, showcase their successes as councillors for Watford.

You say Labour councillors have done an outstanding job in Watford, well go out and shout it from the rooftops because I've not heard a thing about them locally. The only story I remember for years was about your councillor Asif Khan having been a member of some muslim extremist party. Having met him he seems perfectly ok, but if that's the only story that sticks in the mind then you have done a lousy job of getting your message across.

Try to get people to vote for what you stand for. That's what UKIP does and it seems to be working.

Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
Right on point 1 & 2, completely wrong on 3. On point 3, vote UKIP, get UKIP. Already UKIP drives the political agenda without so much as a single MP, although many MPs believe in the same things UKIP believes in. In time we will have UKIP MPs, quite possibly in 2015. As far as defections of MEPs go, no political party can stop an elected politician at any level leaving their party. It happens all the time. You know that. You must remember or know about The Social Democrats (SDP), Labour big-wigs included, left Labour and formed a new party. Then they joined the Liberals. Labour bigwigs joined the Liberals! What's that all about? For those too young to remember, the SDP were quite popular for a while as a more sensible version of the Labour party. These inter-party defections happen all the time. That's no reason not to vote for a party, because otherwise that would rule out almost every political party, including yours. Where's the logic in that? An impartial observer might think your comments sound a bit like sour grapes on your part because UKIP are such a threat to Labour, that your comments are not balanced. After all, the Labour party are quite happy to accept defectors from other parties, not too long ago accepting a Tory MP. History is littered with political party defectors. So what's your point? "Remember folks, don't vote Labour in case any politicians jump ship. It's happened before, it will happen again". Out of principle would you advise people to not vote Labour for fear of wasting their vote? Is that seriously what you are proposing? I doubt it. As a different angle for you, instead of this constant sniping from inside your glass house, why not tell people about Labour, what Labour stands for locally, showcase their successes as councillors for Watford. You say Labour councillors have done an outstanding job in Watford, well go out and shout it from the rooftops because I've not heard a thing about them locally. The only story I remember for years was about your councillor Asif Khan having been a member of some muslim extremist party. Having met him he seems perfectly ok, but if that's the only story that sticks in the mind then you have done a lousy job of getting your message across. Try to get people to vote for what you stand for. That's what UKIP does and it seems to be working. Vote UKIP, get UKIP. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

12:13pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Boosey wrote:
Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?
Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.
[quote][p][bold]Boosey[/bold] wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?[/p][/quote]Sorry, private life is private. As it should be. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

12:14pm Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

@dontknowwhynot

"Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory"

You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter.

Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies...
Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
@dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

12:32pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

D_Penn wrote:
@dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
The newspapers and parties of the right would have us believe a vote for UKIP is a vote for a Labour government. "Vote UKIP, get Labour."

Labour party would have us believe a vote for UKIP is a vote for the Tories. "Vote UKIP, get Tory"

You can't both be right, can you? In fact, you are both completely wrong, as usual.

The truth is far simpler. A vote for UKIP is a vote for UKIP.

Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
[quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.[/p][/quote]The newspapers and parties of the right would have us believe a vote for UKIP is a vote for a Labour government. "Vote UKIP, get Labour." Labour party would have us believe a vote for UKIP is a vote for the Tories. "Vote UKIP, get Tory" You can't both be right, can you? In fact, you are both completely wrong, as usual. The truth is far simpler. A vote for UKIP is a vote for UKIP. Vote UKIP, get UKIP. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

12:34pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

D_Penn wrote:
@dontknowwhynot

"Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory"

You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter.

Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies...
Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong

Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice.
[quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.[/p][/quote]clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice. dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

12:38pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded.
Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded. dontknowynot
  • Score: 2

12:50pm Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

dontknowynot wrote:
D_Penn wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice.
@dontknowynot
You said... "clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice. "

If 50% of UKIP Easter Region is UKIP then people ARE voting for us. I.e. Vote UKIP get UKIP. Also, as you well know, our current crop of MEP's won at the last European election when UKIP was only polling a fraction of our current support. You are cleary very worried, but the old parties have only themselves to blame. The contempt with which they have and still are treating the British people is the beiggest cause of our rise and your slide.

Your weakness is shown by the best you can do to promote your party is to try to convince others that UKIP is Tory. All you are doing is demonstrating just how empty and bankrupt of ideas you have become. The majority of British people have stopped voting because they no longer trust you or those from other parties who are just like you. UKIP is determined to give them all a voice.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.[/p][/quote]clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice.[/p][/quote]@dontknowynot You said... "clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice. " If 50% of UKIP Easter Region is UKIP then people ARE voting for us. I.e. Vote UKIP get UKIP. Also, as you well know, our current crop of MEP's won at the last European election when UKIP was only polling a fraction of our current support. You are cleary very worried, but the old parties have only themselves to blame. The contempt with which they have and still are treating the British people is the beiggest cause of our rise and your slide. Your weakness is shown by the best you can do to promote your party is to try to convince others that UKIP is Tory. All you are doing is demonstrating just how empty and bankrupt of ideas you have become. The majority of British people have stopped voting because they no longer trust you or those from other parties who are just like you. UKIP is determined to give them all a voice. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

1:06pm Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

dontknowynot wrote:
Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded.
I would like to think you are right, but soft sentencing seems to be becoming an epidemic judging by the huge number of cases going before the courts and the relatively few custodial sentences being handed out.

However, whilst I want a return to tougher sentencing for thieves, there has to be allowances, though where theft is deliberate, the acceptance of mitigating circumstances should be limited. For example, problems such as extreme mental deficiency or somebody who stole under threat of domestic violence would certainly be factors that should reduce punishment, but only if proven beyond reasonable doubt. I wouldn't agree that the example you gave should be though. If you knowingly steal, you are a thief and should be punished as such. If you stole less than you were owed then that would just be stupidity, but you would still remain a premeditated thief.

It would certainly help give more people faith (or otherwise) in the justice system if the reasons behind sentences given out were widely reported. It's a pity that in this case more detail isn't available to aid the debate.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded.[/p][/quote]I would like to think you are right, but soft sentencing seems to be becoming an epidemic judging by the huge number of cases going before the courts and the relatively few custodial sentences being handed out. However, whilst I want a return to tougher sentencing for thieves, there has to be allowances, though where theft is deliberate, the acceptance of mitigating circumstances should be limited. For example, problems such as extreme mental deficiency or somebody who stole under threat of domestic violence would certainly be factors that should reduce punishment, but only if proven beyond reasonable doubt. I wouldn't agree that the example you gave should be though. If you knowingly steal, you are a thief and should be punished as such. If you stole less than you were owed then that would just be stupidity, but you would still remain a premeditated thief. It would certainly help give more people faith (or otherwise) in the justice system if the reasons behind sentences given out were widely reported. It's a pity that in this case more detail isn't available to aid the debate. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

1:17pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

D_Penn wrote:
dontknowynot wrote:
D_Penn wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.
clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice.
@dontknowynot
You said... "clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice. "

If 50% of UKIP Easter Region is UKIP then people ARE voting for us. I.e. Vote UKIP get UKIP. Also, as you well know, our current crop of MEP's won at the last European election when UKIP was only polling a fraction of our current support. You are cleary very worried, but the old parties have only themselves to blame. The contempt with which they have and still are treating the British people is the beiggest cause of our rise and your slide.

Your weakness is shown by the best you can do to promote your party is to try to convince others that UKIP is Tory. All you are doing is demonstrating just how empty and bankrupt of ideas you have become. The majority of British people have stopped voting because they no longer trust you or those from other parties who are just like you. UKIP is determined to give them all a voice.
half your ukip Meps for eastern region are now tory fact

now your policys are tory ones everyday of the week take any topical national issue, e.g. fracking
An abserloutly stupid idea in such a highly populated country as the UK (although the highlands might not be), come on where can this be done without posing some danger to water supply, agriculture, or property.
Utter madness to persue at present and lets face it the shale gas ain't going anywhere, licence costs would likely favor the gov if done latter and technology would be better proven, yet you rparty and the tory party both want to go for fracking.
[quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: @dontknowwhynot "Your party is a Tory party plain and simple admit it Vote UKIP get Tory" You are either ignorant of the facts or desperately trying to convince followers who have deserted Labour of an untruth to win back their support. I suspect the latter. Well, it may work for a few, but more and more ordinary people who take little interest in politics now recognise that UKIP is not Tory and is a new party whose views are close to their own. You may continue to try to obfuscate the sea change that's happening in UK politics, but the electorate are switching to us in huge numbers. The coming May elections will confirm what everyone knows and terrifies you and your cronies... Vote UKIP, get UKIP.[/p][/quote]clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice.[/p][/quote]@dontknowynot You said... "clearly only 50% of Eastern region are currently UKIP so your wrong Vote UKIP get a Tory and what Blooms apprentice. " If 50% of UKIP Easter Region is UKIP then people ARE voting for us. I.e. Vote UKIP get UKIP. Also, as you well know, our current crop of MEP's won at the last European election when UKIP was only polling a fraction of our current support. You are cleary very worried, but the old parties have only themselves to blame. The contempt with which they have and still are treating the British people is the beiggest cause of our rise and your slide. Your weakness is shown by the best you can do to promote your party is to try to convince others that UKIP is Tory. All you are doing is demonstrating just how empty and bankrupt of ideas you have become. The majority of British people have stopped voting because they no longer trust you or those from other parties who are just like you. UKIP is determined to give them all a voice.[/p][/quote]half your ukip Meps for eastern region are now tory fact now your policys are tory ones everyday of the week take any topical national issue, e.g. fracking An abserloutly stupid idea in such a highly populated country as the UK (although the highlands might not be), come on where can this be done without posing some danger to water supply, agriculture, or property. Utter madness to persue at present and lets face it the shale gas ain't going anywhere, licence costs would likely favor the gov if done latter and technology would be better proven, yet you rparty and the tory party both want to go for fracking. dontknowynot
  • Score: 2

1:24pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Boosey says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Boosey wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?
Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.
Respect! I only posted as a wind up to which I apologise, a very civil reply there Phil.
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Boosey[/bold] wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?[/p][/quote]Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.[/p][/quote]Respect! I only posted as a wind up to which I apologise, a very civil reply there Phil. Boosey
  • Score: 1

1:27pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

D_Penn wrote:
dontknowynot wrote:
Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded.
I would like to think you are right, but soft sentencing seems to be becoming an epidemic judging by the huge number of cases going before the courts and the relatively few custodial sentences being handed out.

However, whilst I want a return to tougher sentencing for thieves, there has to be allowances, though where theft is deliberate, the acceptance of mitigating circumstances should be limited. For example, problems such as extreme mental deficiency or somebody who stole under threat of domestic violence would certainly be factors that should reduce punishment, but only if proven beyond reasonable doubt. I wouldn't agree that the example you gave should be though. If you knowingly steal, you are a thief and should be punished as such. If you stole less than you were owed then that would just be stupidity, but you would still remain a premeditated thief.

It would certainly help give more people faith (or otherwise) in the justice system if the reasons behind sentences given out were widely reported. It's a pity that in this case more detail isn't available to aid the debate.
The WO report is very thin and detail is needed, that is the home of the devil as one might say, clearly this is either the result of incredible leniency or maybe a combination of mitigating factors such as mental health and/or being a stupid fraudster as you described.
[quote][p][bold]D_Penn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: Re this case I think that there is clearly more to it than meets the eye, the judge was clearly extremely Lenient, unless of course there were Mitigating factors such as she would have received more in "in work" benefits (tax credits child tax credit etc) than she actually defrauded.[/p][/quote]I would like to think you are right, but soft sentencing seems to be becoming an epidemic judging by the huge number of cases going before the courts and the relatively few custodial sentences being handed out. However, whilst I want a return to tougher sentencing for thieves, there has to be allowances, though where theft is deliberate, the acceptance of mitigating circumstances should be limited. For example, problems such as extreme mental deficiency or somebody who stole under threat of domestic violence would certainly be factors that should reduce punishment, but only if proven beyond reasonable doubt. I wouldn't agree that the example you gave should be though. If you knowingly steal, you are a thief and should be punished as such. If you stole less than you were owed then that would just be stupidity, but you would still remain a premeditated thief. It would certainly help give more people faith (or otherwise) in the justice system if the reasons behind sentences given out were widely reported. It's a pity that in this case more detail isn't available to aid the debate.[/p][/quote]The WO report is very thin and detail is needed, that is the home of the devil as one might say, clearly this is either the result of incredible leniency or maybe a combination of mitigating factors such as mental health and/or being a stupid fraudster as you described. dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

1:38pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phoenix Keeper says...

I would love to be able to borrow over £11,000 and then pay it back with the interest accounting for less than 1% of the loan!!!
I would love to be able to borrow over £11,000 and then pay it back with the interest accounting for less than 1% of the loan!!! Phoenix Keeper
  • Score: 1

2:29pm Tue 14 Jan 14

WatfordBandB says...

The only reason UKIP regard themselves as having honesty is because they have not had a chance at forefront politics as yet. Give them 5 years in power and they will be as corrupt and as narcissistic as current main parties.

Politics is wasted on sycophantic individuals with alternative intentions. It’s time for a change...
The only reason UKIP regard themselves as having honesty is because they have not had a chance at forefront politics as yet. Give them 5 years in power and they will be as corrupt and as narcissistic as current main parties. Politics is wasted on sycophantic individuals with alternative intentions. It’s time for a change... WatfordBandB
  • Score: 1

3:10pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Boosey wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Boosey wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?
Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.
Respect! I only posted as a wind up to which I apologise, a very civil reply there Phil.
No problem at all, best wishes for being so decent.
[quote][p][bold]Boosey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Boosey[/bold] wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?[/p][/quote]Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.[/p][/quote]Respect! I only posted as a wind up to which I apologise, a very civil reply there Phil.[/p][/quote]No problem at all, best wishes for being so decent. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

3:21pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

WatfordBandB wrote:
The only reason UKIP regard themselves as having honesty is because they have not had a chance at forefront politics as yet. Give them 5 years in power and they will be as corrupt and as narcissistic as current main parties. Politics is wasted on sycophantic individuals with alternative intentions. It’s time for a change...
I certainly hope you're wrong.

What I have found since joining UKIP is a genuine desire amongst the people in the local party and others I have met from outside of Watford to be different to the other parties, not for the sake ofbeing different, but for the sake of being honest with the electorate and working for everyone and not narrow political interests.

UKIP, if elected locally, will not have any narrow political agenda, it will have the sole agenda of "What is best for Watford".

I suspect there is always a danger of councillors going native once elected, but UKIP is so different I don't see it happening. We really do want to make a difference, for the better. We, like you, want a different way, a better way, and that's why we are standing up for UKIP who will provide that change.
[quote][p][bold]WatfordBandB[/bold] wrote: The only reason UKIP regard themselves as having honesty is because they have not had a chance at forefront politics as yet. Give them 5 years in power and they will be as corrupt and as narcissistic as current main parties. Politics is wasted on sycophantic individuals with alternative intentions. It’s time for a change...[/p][/quote]I certainly hope you're wrong. What I have found since joining UKIP is a genuine desire amongst the people in the local party and others I have met from outside of Watford to be different to the other parties, not for the sake ofbeing different, but for the sake of being honest with the electorate and working for everyone and not narrow political interests. UKIP, if elected locally, will not have any narrow political agenda, it will have the sole agenda of "What is best for Watford". I suspect there is always a danger of councillors going native once elected, but UKIP is so different I don't see it happening. We really do want to make a difference, for the better. We, like you, want a different way, a better way, and that's why we are standing up for UKIP who will provide that change. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -2

4:00pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

@phil
that all sounds very noble but doesn't answer the charge about your party being a right wing version of the Tory Party. look at the facts fully 3 of your party MEP's disliked your affiliation to an extremist grouping in Europe and defected to the conservative party.
I presume that the remaining MEP's all agree with being in this grouping, your deputy leader is a skeptic on climate change, yet we are in Eastern region and East Anglia is set to be adversely affected by it. Same with fracking sure we in Watford don't have any but in the region yes we do.
On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it?
Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock.
@phil that all sounds very noble but doesn't answer the charge about your party being a right wing version of the Tory Party. look at the facts fully 3 of your party MEP's disliked your affiliation to an extremist grouping in Europe and defected to the conservative party. I presume that the remaining MEP's all agree with being in this grouping, your deputy leader is a skeptic on climate change, yet we are in Eastern region and East Anglia is set to be adversely affected by it. Same with fracking sure we in Watford don't have any but in the region yes we do. On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it? Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock. dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

4:09pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

BTW according to the Romanian ambassador only 24 romanian immigrants since new year>>>>
http://www.standard.
co.uk/news/uk/only-t
wo-dozen-romanians-h
ave-arrived-in-uk-si
nce-start-of-predict
ed-influx-ambassador
-claims-9058400.html
somehow I don't think tat will put pressure on local school places, whilst on that subject how do your policy's differ from the right of the Tory party re education???
BTW according to the Romanian ambassador only 24 romanian immigrants since new year>>>> http://www.standard. co.uk/news/uk/only-t wo-dozen-romanians-h ave-arrived-in-uk-si nce-start-of-predict ed-influx-ambassador -claims-9058400.html somehow I don't think tat will put pressure on local school places, whilst on that subject how do your policy's differ from the right of the Tory party re education??? dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

4:15pm Tue 14 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

@dontknowynot

Your quote: "Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock."

You have repeated this phrase so often that I actually think you have come to believe it. You can carry on saying it as often as you liek but anyone who has been to a Watford UKIP meeting will see it's not true. We are politically very diverse and that is one of our greatest strengths.

You also said: "On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it?"

That is also untrue. We are pragmatists and if something is right we will say so. Why would any sensible person oppose something they agree with?
@dontknowynot Your quote: "Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock." You have repeated this phrase so often that I actually think you have come to believe it. You can carry on saying it as often as you liek but anyone who has been to a Watford UKIP meeting will see it's not true. We are politically very diverse and that is one of our greatest strengths. You also said: "On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it?" That is also untrue. We are pragmatists and if something is right we will say so. Why would any sensible person oppose something they agree with? D_Penn
  • Score: 2

4:28pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
@phil that all sounds very noble but doesn't answer the charge about your party being a right wing version of the Tory Party. look at the facts fully 3 of your party MEP's disliked your affiliation to an extremist grouping in Europe and defected to the conservative party. I presume that the remaining MEP's all agree with being in this grouping, your deputy leader is a skeptic on climate change, yet we are in Eastern region and East Anglia is set to be adversely affected by it. Same with fracking sure we in Watford don't have any but in the region yes we do. On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it? Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock.
UKIP is not a right-wing version of the Conservative party - that's laughable, just look at all the people who are joining.

Amongst others, there are Ex-Labour supporters and activists even here in Watford - would they be joining if they agreed with you? Why? People you might have previously been calling brother or comrade are now somehow rabid right-wingers. That just doesn't add-up, does it?

No, it's simpler than that. UKIP stands up for this country and wants the UK to be an independent country again. UKIP considers the people of this country have been taken for a dishonest 40-year ride into the EUSSR by the lying Labour, LibDem and Conservative parties and we want to put a stop to it.

If you consider that right-wing then that's up to you, but most people would disagree with you.

We want our country back. We want our own elected politicians to make our own laws, be they UKIP, Labour, LibDem, Conservative, Green or Monster Raving Looney. What's wrong with that? At least we have voted for them and we can vote them out again when they get too detatched from reality. You can't say that about the EU who make most of our laws and have the final say over UK laws.

It worked fine for hundreds of years until the EU came along and the main parties in this country conspired to give this country away.

You may be a little confused on climate change. There is climate change (it just happens and always has done, caused by processes beyond our control) and there is man-made climate change, manufactured and massaged into shape by the discredited and lying University of East Anglia. One is free apart from common sense things like flood defences, the other is a tax-rasing exercise for governments.

We believe in climate change, we just are not convinced it is man-made. Some time ago Gordon Brown said we have 45 days to save the world as regards Climate Change. That's about as silly as it gets I'm afraid.

On local issues we are always ready to work with other groups and parties who we believe are on the right side of a local issue. On Farm Terrace I would say that opposing the development is correct, and therefore I am happy to say that on that issue Labour (and UKIP) are right. I have no problem with saying that at all. I believe Labour are right on that issue, and we should both give Sara Jane all the support we can.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: @phil that all sounds very noble but doesn't answer the charge about your party being a right wing version of the Tory Party. look at the facts fully 3 of your party MEP's disliked your affiliation to an extremist grouping in Europe and defected to the conservative party. I presume that the remaining MEP's all agree with being in this grouping, your deputy leader is a skeptic on climate change, yet we are in Eastern region and East Anglia is set to be adversely affected by it. Same with fracking sure we in Watford don't have any but in the region yes we do. On the occassion that it does appear that you and the Labour party are on the same side re a local issue (farm terrace) your party just can't bring itself to admit that Labour is right can it? Why Because you are all a bunch of Torys, cut you in half and its written in Blue Tory Tory just like a purple stick of rock.[/p][/quote]UKIP is not a right-wing version of the Conservative party - that's laughable, just look at all the people who are joining. Amongst others, there are Ex-Labour supporters and activists even here in Watford - would they be joining if they agreed with you? Why? People you might have previously been calling brother or comrade are now somehow rabid right-wingers. That just doesn't add-up, does it? No, it's simpler than that. UKIP stands up for this country and wants the UK to be an independent country again. UKIP considers the people of this country have been taken for a dishonest 40-year ride into the EUSSR by the lying Labour, LibDem and Conservative parties and we want to put a stop to it. If you consider that right-wing then that's up to you, but most people would disagree with you. We want our country back. We want our own elected politicians to make our own laws, be they UKIP, Labour, LibDem, Conservative, Green or Monster Raving Looney. What's wrong with that? At least we have voted for them and we can vote them out again when they get too detatched from reality. You can't say that about the EU who make most of our laws and have the final say over UK laws. It worked fine for hundreds of years until the EU came along and the main parties in this country conspired to give this country away. You may be a little confused on climate change. There is climate change (it just happens and always has done, caused by processes beyond our control) and there is man-made climate change, manufactured and massaged into shape by the discredited and lying University of East Anglia. One is free apart from common sense things like flood defences, the other is a tax-rasing exercise for governments. We believe in climate change, we just are not convinced it is man-made. Some time ago Gordon Brown said we have 45 days to save the world as regards Climate Change. That's about as silly as it gets I'm afraid. On local issues we are always ready to work with other groups and parties who we believe are on the right side of a local issue. On Farm Terrace I would say that opposing the development is correct, and therefore I am happy to say that on that issue Labour (and UKIP) are right. I have no problem with saying that at all. I believe Labour are right on that issue, and we should both give Sara Jane all the support we can. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

4:48pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
BTW according to the Romanian ambassador only 24 romanian immigrants since new year>>>> http://www.standard. co.uk/news/uk/only-t wo-dozen-romanians-h ave-arrived-in-uk-si nce-start-of-predict ed-influx-ambassador -claims-9058400.html somehow I don't think tat will put pressure on local school places, whilst on that subject how do your policy's differ from the right of the Tory party re education???
UKIP wants new grammar schools. We are alone in wanting this.

As for visitors from Romania it is only the 14th day of the year and therefore it is too early to say what will happen in the weeks, months and years to come. Also that estimate is not even based on this country or any real data about the UK, in other words it is a guess based on thin air.

But let's get this straight, once and for all, UKIP are not anti-immigration at all, UKIP is for planned immigration.

If we as a country know how many people we are taking in we can plan for it, build the schools and hospitals and everything else that is needed to accomodate new residents and their families.

If it is uncontrolled there can only be chaos, panic measures and resentment.

Given the choice, wouldn't you like to plan for population growth rather than just have to manage any number of millions of people arriving from the EU at random? For us, it's just another example of common sense.

Of course we would have to leave the EU to manage migration into the UK because until then it is completely open-door. Come one, come all.

Do us a favour though, even though it is an open door policy, could you make sure your party has stopped going out and looking for people to migrate to the UK? I think you only make the problem worse.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: BTW according to the Romanian ambassador only 24 romanian immigrants since new year>>>> http://www.standard. co.uk/news/uk/only-t wo-dozen-romanians-h ave-arrived-in-uk-si nce-start-of-predict ed-influx-ambassador -claims-9058400.html somehow I don't think tat will put pressure on local school places, whilst on that subject how do your policy's differ from the right of the Tory party re education???[/p][/quote]UKIP wants new grammar schools. We are alone in wanting this. As for visitors from Romania it is only the 14th day of the year and therefore it is too early to say what will happen in the weeks, months and years to come. Also that estimate is not even based on this country or any real data about the UK, in other words it is a guess based on thin air. But let's get this straight, once and for all, UKIP are not anti-immigration at all, UKIP is for planned immigration. If we as a country know how many people we are taking in we can plan for it, build the schools and hospitals and everything else that is needed to accomodate new residents and their families. If it is uncontrolled there can only be chaos, panic measures and resentment. Given the choice, wouldn't you like to plan for population growth rather than just have to manage any number of millions of people arriving from the EU at random? For us, it's just another example of common sense. Of course we would have to leave the EU to manage migration into the UK because until then it is completely open-door. Come one, come all. Do us a favour though, even though it is an open door policy, could you make sure your party has stopped going out and looking for people to migrate to the UK? I think you only make the problem worse. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

6:34pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

if you want new grammar schools you want new secondary moderns or equivalent, you want the re introduction of grade by quota and re elitsem of the education system along. If you want grammar schools then you are pro schools selecting children and anti parental choice, you are pro pigeon holing children at 11, It is a policy I disagree with and is essentially of he right.
The Purple stick of rock thing well this is its first outing I believe but go on find the other examples,
As for this guess well come on the media have been all over the story of immigration like and whilst sure it is anecdotal if there were examples of dozens of migrants coming in they would have found them. Your rhetoric was as soon as they could come they would , now its changing somewhat as they have not but you want to keep up the level of xenophobia.
As for your planned immigration policy this is just so much widow dressing really.
You have however failed again to say one single policy that is to the left of thatcher let alone left of center
if you want new grammar schools you want new secondary moderns or equivalent, you want the re introduction of grade by quota and re elitsem of the education system along. If you want grammar schools then you are pro schools selecting children and anti parental choice, you are pro pigeon holing children at 11, It is a policy I disagree with and is essentially of he right. The Purple stick of rock thing well this is its first outing I believe but go on find the other examples, As for this guess well come on the media have been all over the story of immigration like and whilst sure it is anecdotal if there were examples of dozens of migrants coming in they would have found them. Your rhetoric was as soon as they could come they would , now its changing somewhat as they have not but you want to keep up the level of xenophobia. As for your planned immigration policy this is just so much widow dressing really. You have however failed again to say one single policy that is to the left of thatcher let alone left of center dontknowynot
  • Score: 0

8:15pm Tue 14 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

@phil cox(UKIP)
I take it you have b=nothing to add on welfare policy here or is that a little UKIP secret>> having diapered from your website so let me remind you its all about slave Labor sorry Workfare for getting rid of child tax credits sure start etc into some sort of voucher for nursery places, mind you on a flat rate, as such again UKIP policy is not progressive and is right wing
@phil cox(UKIP) I take it you have b=nothing to add on welfare policy here or is that a little UKIP secret>> having diapered from your website so let me remind you its all about slave Labor sorry Workfare for getting rid of child tax credits sure start etc into some sort of voucher for nursery places, mind you on a flat rate, as such again UKIP policy is not progressive and is right wing dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

9:10am Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
if you want new grammar schools you want new secondary moderns or equivalent, you want the re introduction of grade by quota and re elitsem of the education system along. If you want grammar schools then you are pro schools selecting children and anti parental choice, you are pro pigeon holing children at 11, It is a policy I disagree with and is essentially of he right.
The Purple stick of rock thing well this is its first outing I believe but go on find the other examples,
As for this guess well come on the media have been all over the story of immigration like and whilst sure it is anecdotal if there were examples of dozens of migrants coming in they would have found them. Your rhetoric was as soon as they could come they would , now its changing somewhat as they have not but you want to keep up the level of xenophobia.
As for your planned immigration policy this is just so much widow dressing really.
You have however failed again to say one single policy that is to the left of thatcher let alone left of center
No, we want grammars and we want more of them so that far more children can go to grammars, just like Gordon Brown did. This gives parents more choice, not less.

The other schools (non-grammars) should be encouraged to attain the best results they can and be given all the resources available to improve the schools to be the best that they can be. They can become Grammars in time, why limit the amount of grammars if that is the pinnaccle of public education. Here in Watford we have two excellent grammar schools.

It will not be a case of poor and great, it will be a case of great and better than great. UKIP wants the education of our children to be outstanding, for all children. It's what parents want. It's what Labour parents want - after all they send their children private or to the best state schools (Abbot, Blair).

It's about time Labour came out in favour of good rigorous education to the highest possible standards for all children, not just their own. I can't say that Labour did much for normal children in that direction during their time in office.

What bugs me is that Labour has all these principles that get dropped as soon as they apply to them. Dianne Abbot, as lefty and loopy as they come, sent her child to private school because when push came to shove state schools were not good enough for her child and her principles went straight out the window. Blair somehow managed to get his kids into some super state school miles away. Scargill, Super-Lefty-Militant Mineworker Union President wanted to buy his council flat under "right to buy" - a Tory Thatcherite policy which he openly despised. Hypocrites are the worst people and our political ranks are full of them, particularly your party, Labour.

I will ask you again though to answer the immigration question. People will want to hear your answer.

Would you prefer a planned immigration policy, with a limit on the number of immigrants, whereby you could plan for all the things these immigrants and their families would need to live in this country, or would you prefer the open-door immigration policy we currently have, courtesy of the EU, whereby anyone (millions and millions can come here at the drop of a hat) can come and stay whenever they want, able to claim free housing and benefits and use our straining health services and schools, all of which are provided free?

I cannot see an argument for the current situation being better than a planned immigration policy. It's not window dressing, it's the truth and you have no answer to it but to reject it out of hand.

That's why UKIP are doing so well and parties like yours with no answers will be punished at the ballot box.

Vote UKIP, and we will sort out the mess created by the failed LibLabConEU experiment.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: if you want new grammar schools you want new secondary moderns or equivalent, you want the re introduction of grade by quota and re elitsem of the education system along. If you want grammar schools then you are pro schools selecting children and anti parental choice, you are pro pigeon holing children at 11, It is a policy I disagree with and is essentially of he right. The Purple stick of rock thing well this is its first outing I believe but go on find the other examples, As for this guess well come on the media have been all over the story of immigration like and whilst sure it is anecdotal if there were examples of dozens of migrants coming in they would have found them. Your rhetoric was as soon as they could come they would , now its changing somewhat as they have not but you want to keep up the level of xenophobia. As for your planned immigration policy this is just so much widow dressing really. You have however failed again to say one single policy that is to the left of thatcher let alone left of center[/p][/quote]No, we want grammars and we want more of them so that far more children can go to grammars, just like Gordon Brown did. This gives parents more choice, not less. The other schools (non-grammars) should be encouraged to attain the best results they can and be given all the resources available to improve the schools to be the best that they can be. They can become Grammars in time, why limit the amount of grammars if that is the pinnaccle of public education. Here in Watford we have two excellent grammar schools. It will not be a case of poor and great, it will be a case of great and better than great. UKIP wants the education of our children to be outstanding, for all children. It's what parents want. It's what Labour parents want - after all they send their children private or to the best state schools (Abbot, Blair). It's about time Labour came out in favour of good rigorous education to the highest possible standards for all children, not just their own. I can't say that Labour did much for normal children in that direction during their time in office. What bugs me is that Labour has all these principles that get dropped as soon as they apply to them. Dianne Abbot, as lefty and loopy as they come, sent her child to private school because when push came to shove state schools were not good enough for her child and her principles went straight out the window. Blair somehow managed to get his kids into some super state school miles away. Scargill, Super-Lefty-Militant Mineworker Union President wanted to buy his council flat under "right to buy" - a Tory Thatcherite policy which he openly despised. Hypocrites are the worst people and our political ranks are full of them, particularly your party, Labour. I will ask you again though to answer the immigration question. People will want to hear your answer. Would you prefer a planned immigration policy, with a limit on the number of immigrants, whereby you could plan for all the things these immigrants and their families would need to live in this country, or would you prefer the open-door immigration policy we currently have, courtesy of the EU, whereby anyone (millions and millions can come here at the drop of a hat) can come and stay whenever they want, able to claim free housing and benefits and use our straining health services and schools, all of which are provided free? I cannot see an argument for the current situation being better than a planned immigration policy. It's not window dressing, it's the truth and you have no answer to it but to reject it out of hand. That's why UKIP are doing so well and parties like yours with no answers will be punished at the ballot box. Vote UKIP, and we will sort out the mess created by the failed LibLabConEU experiment. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

11:08am Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

@phil cox(ukip)

I dont believe you on education, the whole point of Grammar schools is that they are quota driven fact!!!
In the present context of education it is all about elites look at the inis oxbridge, russell group, the rest, no your party is right wing on this issue as it is on every issue, that is why your party has taken down its manefesto on these issues:- education, health, welfare.
The fact is your party is a right wing party, that is it is a tory party, why do you deny it???
This is what the Libdems do they deny that they are a Tory party when quite clearly they are, or more accurately they have been taken over by a tory wing of their party.
Look at your MEPs all right wingers, look at your peers two Torys and a toff, admit the truth your party is a right wing party, many people would see nothing wrong with that, but if you don't admit it and you get in power and act like right wingers without admitting it you are no different from the Libdems are you??
Look at your deputy leader for example at least he is plausible when he says he is not being lazy by not attending the EU, rather he is being showing them contempt, I do note that he does however not show the money he is paid contempt does he??
All your party bangs on about is immigration, again this is right wing, all the time every issue it all comes back to immigration, why because you have no other message.

vote ukip you know it makes nonsense

@honest reg you are clearly right and now we have a chancellor set to vote to give the Banksters at RBS 200% bonuses, no doubt the financial types and bankers in UKIP will support him in this becouse we know these people really "earn" their money
@phil cox(ukip) I dont believe you on education, the whole point of Grammar schools is that they are quota driven fact!!! In the present context of education it is all about elites look at the inis oxbridge, russell group, the rest, no your party is right wing on this issue as it is on every issue, that is why your party has taken down its manefesto on these issues:- education, health, welfare. The fact is your party is a right wing party, that is it is a tory party, why do you deny it??? This is what the Libdems do they deny that they are a Tory party when quite clearly they are, or more accurately they have been taken over by a tory wing of their party. Look at your MEPs all right wingers, look at your peers two Torys and a toff, admit the truth your party is a right wing party, many people would see nothing wrong with that, but if you don't admit it and you get in power and act like right wingers without admitting it you are no different from the Libdems are you?? Look at your deputy leader for example at least he is plausible when he says he is not being lazy by not attending the EU, rather he is being showing them contempt, I do note that he does however not show the money he is paid contempt does he?? All your party bangs on about is immigration, again this is right wing, all the time every issue it all comes back to immigration, why because you have no other message. vote ukip you know it makes nonsense @honest reg you are clearly right and now we have a chancellor set to vote to give the Banksters at RBS 200% bonuses, no doubt the financial types and bankers in UKIP will support him in this becouse we know these people really "earn" their money dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

11:12am Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

oops looks like my post got lost
oops looks like my post got lost dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

11:31am Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration.

You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong.

I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this.

You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch.

As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject.

People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests?

Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral.
I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration. You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong. I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this. You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch. As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject. People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests? Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

12:01pm Wed 15 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

@dontknowynot

You said: "All your party bangs on about is immigration, again this is right wing, all the time every issue it all comes back to immigration, why because you have no other message."

How can just discussing immigration be right wing?

You and your cronies at the BBC spent years trying to avoid the subject by spitting 'racist' at anyone who tried to have a sensible debate. Now that everybody with any iota of common sense has recognised that there are both financial and social issues that need to be addressed, and are no longer cowed into silence, you still want to try to get people in politics to shut up about it. Typical left wing appoach... Let's not have a debate, we're right so we will shout down anyone who disagrees with us.

What on earth is wrong with you and your party that you cannot grasp the simple fact that piling ever increasing numbers of people on top of one another cannot go on. Apart from Malta, Britain is now the most overcrowded country in Europe, yet despite us having neither the infrastructure or the money to build more infrastructure, you still want to keep the doors open.

You are like some mad bus conductor who lets so many people on board that they're faining from heat yet still insists there's room for more.

Ordinary citizens of this country, even immigrants, can see the problems. Why are you and your party so entrenched that you can't or won't put aside your tarnished political ideology, do what is best for everyone in this country and put together a policy that supports intelligent immigration management.
@dontknowynot You said: "All your party bangs on about is immigration, again this is right wing, all the time every issue it all comes back to immigration, why because you have no other message." How can just discussing immigration be right wing? You and your cronies at the BBC spent years trying to avoid the subject by spitting 'racist' at anyone who tried to have a sensible debate. Now that everybody with any iota of common sense has recognised that there are both financial and social issues that need to be addressed, and are no longer cowed into silence, you still want to try to get people in politics to shut up about it. Typical left wing appoach... Let's not have a debate, we're right so we will shout down anyone who disagrees with us. What on earth is wrong with you and your party that you cannot grasp the simple fact that piling ever increasing numbers of people on top of one another cannot go on. Apart from Malta, Britain is now the most overcrowded country in Europe, yet despite us having neither the infrastructure or the money to build more infrastructure, you still want to keep the doors open. You are like some mad bus conductor who lets so many people on board that they're faining from heat yet still insists there's room for more. Ordinary citizens of this country, even immigrants, can see the problems. Why are you and your party so entrenched that you can't or won't put aside your tarnished political ideology, do what is best for everyone in this country and put together a policy that supports intelligent immigration management. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

12:08pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration.

You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong.

I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this.

You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch.

As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject.

People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests?

Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral.
Get a grip on realty
The fact is since the introduction of policys in the 1930's to control or manage immigration from eastern Europe Jews fleaing persecution all gov have sought to manage immigration to some extent, you clearly must know this. So whilst I personally believe that the last Lab gov was wrong in some of what it did (ie importing nurses from all over instead of concentrating more on attracting training and retention of UK resident people into nursing, and also allowing the likes of Tesco to undermine their own employees rights in part by importing staff directly recruited from Poland,)
What I will not do however is delude myself that controling immigration will in itself make my lot any better it will not!! I also fail to see that the situation now is that Romanians will come over here on mass.
If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour.
There can only be one answer you are a right wing party, a Tory party and just like the Liberals your opposition to unions and organized Labour is in your soul and trumps your objections to Europe or migration every time.
Just admit you are a right wing party unless of course you personally are not right wing and have been duped
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration. You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong. I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this. You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch. As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject. People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests? Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral.[/p][/quote]Get a grip on realty The fact is since the introduction of policys in the 1930's to control or manage immigration from eastern Europe Jews fleaing persecution all gov have sought to manage immigration to some extent, you clearly must know this. So whilst I personally believe that the last Lab gov was wrong in some of what it did (ie importing nurses from all over instead of concentrating more on attracting training and retention of UK resident people into nursing, and also allowing the likes of Tesco to undermine their own employees rights in part by importing staff directly recruited from Poland,) What I will not do however is delude myself that controling immigration will in itself make my lot any better it will not!! I also fail to see that the situation now is that Romanians will come over here on mass. If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour. There can only be one answer you are a right wing party, a Tory party and just like the Liberals your opposition to unions and organized Labour is in your soul and trumps your objections to Europe or migration every time. Just admit you are a right wing party unless of course you personally are not right wing and have been duped dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

12:39pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote: I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration. You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong. I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this. You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch. As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject. People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests? Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral.
Get a grip on realty The fact is since the introduction of policys in the 1930's to control or manage immigration from eastern Europe Jews fleaing persecution all gov have sought to manage immigration to some extent, you clearly must know this. So whilst I personally believe that the last Lab gov was wrong in some of what it did (ie importing nurses from all over instead of concentrating more on attracting training and retention of UK resident people into nursing, and also allowing the likes of Tesco to undermine their own employees rights in part by importing staff directly recruited from Poland,) What I will not do however is delude myself that controling immigration will in itself make my lot any better it will not!! I also fail to see that the situation now is that Romanians will come over here on mass. If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour. There can only be one answer you are a right wing party, a Tory party and just like the Liberals your opposition to unions and organized Labour is in your soul and trumps your objections to Europe or migration every time. Just admit you are a right wing party unless of course you personally are not right wing and have been duped
You are missing the point. The point is that under the EU we can only have unlimited unmanaged immigration into the UK from the EU. Your party, the Tories, LibDems, they are all fully signed up to this. Happily, it seems.

Only UKIP oppose unmanaged, unlimited immigration from the EU.

Forget the Romanians, the Bulgarians, they are just the latest 29 million people entitled to come here. They are from poor countries and therefore the UK is even more attractive to them, but elsewhere in the EU there are another 410 million people all entitled to come and settle in the UK tomorrow or whenever they feel like it. To make matters worse, if you are not in the EU you can buy a passport somewhere like Malta and come and settle here as well.

How can you run a country when there are a potential 440 million people that could turn up on your doorstep at any time they like and we have to accomodate them? It's pure madness, and that leads me nicely on to Labour, LibDems and Conservatives.

Vote UKIP and get rid of the EU madness of the LibLabCon.
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: I see you can't give a straight answer to a straight question on managed immigration. You and I both know the answer is UKIP's answer, but as your party does not support controlled immigration you cannot bring yourself to go against your party and agree that a rival party is right and Labour is wrong. I commend your party loyalty but it flies in the face of common sense and so you have a choice, follow the party line, show how out of touch Labour politicians are and lose support from the public to UKIP, or stand up for what is right and agree with UKIP on this. You have chosen the former, and that is what is wrong with some party supporters. They refuse to acknowledge the truth of the matter if it conflicts with party loyalty, even if the party is clearly wrong and out of touch. As I said before, you have no answers yourself to this huge problem facing this country so you revert to type - name calling and changing the subject. People are seeing through it. People are moving to UKIP from Labour. That's good for UKIP but really shouldn't the Labour party be feeling the pain of the people it purports to represent and actually work in their interests? Until you do, you will lose more and more supporters to UKIP. Think about it, it's your funeral.[/p][/quote]Get a grip on realty The fact is since the introduction of policys in the 1930's to control or manage immigration from eastern Europe Jews fleaing persecution all gov have sought to manage immigration to some extent, you clearly must know this. So whilst I personally believe that the last Lab gov was wrong in some of what it did (ie importing nurses from all over instead of concentrating more on attracting training and retention of UK resident people into nursing, and also allowing the likes of Tesco to undermine their own employees rights in part by importing staff directly recruited from Poland,) What I will not do however is delude myself that controling immigration will in itself make my lot any better it will not!! I also fail to see that the situation now is that Romanians will come over here on mass. If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour. There can only be one answer you are a right wing party, a Tory party and just like the Liberals your opposition to unions and organized Labour is in your soul and trumps your objections to Europe or migration every time. Just admit you are a right wing party unless of course you personally are not right wing and have been duped[/p][/quote]You are missing the point. The point is that under the EU we can only have unlimited unmanaged immigration into the UK from the EU. Your party, the Tories, LibDems, they are all fully signed up to this. Happily, it seems. Only UKIP oppose unmanaged, unlimited immigration from the EU. Forget the Romanians, the Bulgarians, they are just the latest 29 million people entitled to come here. They are from poor countries and therefore the UK is even more attractive to them, but elsewhere in the EU there are another 410 million people all entitled to come and settle in the UK tomorrow or whenever they feel like it. To make matters worse, if you are not in the EU you can buy a passport somewhere like Malta and come and settle here as well. How can you run a country when there are a potential 440 million people that could turn up on your doorstep at any time they like and we have to accomodate them? It's pure madness, and that leads me nicely on to Labour, LibDems and Conservatives. Vote UKIP and get rid of the EU madness of the LibLabCon. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

12:43pm Wed 15 Jan 14

D_Penn says...

@dontknowynot

You said: "If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour."

First, and we have said this umpteen times, we are not opposed to immigration. We simply want sensible controls so that all those who are already living here can have a decent quality of life, good employment prospects and decent wages.

The problems you mention above are of the Labour Party's own making.

The unfettered immigration allowed under your watch ('to rub the right's nose in diversity' I seem to recall was the telling phrase) did more damage to the employment and wage conditions of ordinary workers in this country than any other policy since the war.

It is tragic that it was and still is your own natural supporters who were clobbered most as wages dropped and employment prospects dwindled because of job competition from abroad.

I have met so many who have stopped supporting Labour and now want UKIP because they feel that our policies will see them better able to get jobs and better wages. They understand better than most, because they have been directly affected by it, that immigration should be dependent on the country's needs and not a free-for-all.

From the rhetoric, Labour still seem to be more concerned with the needs and welfare of those who would like to come to Britain than those who live here. I shouldn't need to remind you that people of this country vote for a party because they expect it to put their needs first. More Labour/Lib Dem votes are flooding our way because Milliband and Clegg, repeatedly treat Europe and Europeans as more important than this country. That is a disgrace and you will be punished at the ballot box for your contemptuous attitude towards the electorate.
@dontknowynot You said: "If however you are gunuine in being opposed to immigration why is it that we hear nowt nothing zip from you about the outrageous discrimination shown by private landlords towards those on benefits in favor of migrant workers, why are you not calling for decent wages and conditions for farm workers and an end to the gang system, why are you not opposed to workers rights being eroded in favour of migrant Labour." First, and we have said this umpteen times, we are not opposed to immigration. We simply want sensible controls so that all those who are already living here can have a decent quality of life, good employment prospects and decent wages. The problems you mention above are of the Labour Party's own making. The unfettered immigration allowed under your watch ('to rub the right's nose in diversity' I seem to recall was the telling phrase) did more damage to the employment and wage conditions of ordinary workers in this country than any other policy since the war. It is tragic that it was and still is your own natural supporters who were clobbered most as wages dropped and employment prospects dwindled because of job competition from abroad. I have met so many who have stopped supporting Labour and now want UKIP because they feel that our policies will see them better able to get jobs and better wages. They understand better than most, because they have been directly affected by it, that immigration should be dependent on the country's needs and not a free-for-all. From the rhetoric, Labour still seem to be more concerned with the needs and welfare of those who would like to come to Britain than those who live here. I shouldn't need to remind you that people of this country vote for a party because they expect it to put their needs first. More Labour/Lib Dem votes are flooding our way because Milliband and Clegg, repeatedly treat Europe and Europeans as more important than this country. That is a disgrace and you will be punished at the ballot box for your contemptuous attitude towards the electorate. D_Penn
  • Score: -1

1:15pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

@D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!!

The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ??

Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this?

Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it???
Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it???
the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party.
The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why????
@D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!! The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ?? Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this? Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it??? Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it??? the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party. The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why???? dontknowynot
  • Score: 0

1:31pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

dontknowynot wrote:
@D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!! The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ?? Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this? Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it??? Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it??? the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party. The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why????
As I said before, we do not fit your moulds, we are UKIP and we are different. We will do what is right irrespective of labels others might try to attach. We are proud not to be Tories, LibDems or Labour. We are proud to be UKIP.

I'm still not sure where you stand on this issue.

If you were immigration minister with a magic wand, what would you do?

1. Leave things as they are (Unlimited, unplanned unrestricted EU immigration)
2. Restrict Immigration from the EU (planned immigration)
3. Remove all barriers to immigration, inside and outside the EU. ((Free for all)

Where do you stand, individually, as a person?
[quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: @D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!! The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ?? Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this? Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it??? Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it??? the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party. The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why????[/p][/quote]As I said before, we do not fit your moulds, we are UKIP and we are different. We will do what is right irrespective of labels others might try to attach. We are proud not to be Tories, LibDems or Labour. We are proud to be UKIP. I'm still not sure where you stand on this issue. If you were immigration minister with a magic wand, what would you do? 1. Leave things as they are (Unlimited, unplanned unrestricted EU immigration) 2. Restrict Immigration from the EU (planned immigration) 3. Remove all barriers to immigration, inside and outside the EU. ((Free for all) Where do you stand, individually, as a person? Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

1:45pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
dontknowynot wrote:
@D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!! The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ?? Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this? Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it??? Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it??? the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party. The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why????
As I said before, we do not fit your moulds, we are UKIP and we are different. We will do what is right irrespective of labels others might try to attach. We are proud not to be Tories, LibDems or Labour. We are proud to be UKIP.

I'm still not sure where you stand on this issue.

If you were immigration minister with a magic wand, what would you do?

1. Leave things as they are (Unlimited, unplanned unrestricted EU immigration)
2. Restrict Immigration from the EU (planned immigration)
3. Remove all barriers to immigration, inside and outside the EU. ((Free for all)

Where do you stand, individually, as a person?
where I stand personally is that as a citizen of Europe we are at broadly speaking position 2.

Now be honest about it you are a right wing party, all your policys are right wing, your MEPs are right wing, your Peers are right wing or Toff just admit it.
Whats worse is that you are an establishment right wing party.

Also you are pretty crap at chosing candidates in the Eastern Region one fraud one Tory and Blooms apprentice
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]dontknowynot[/bold] wrote: @D_Penn blah blah blah unfettered immigration, rot rot rot!!! The fact is I have been more than open in my position and you are just spouting rhetoric here, hidden among it is a clear inward Looking nationalistic right wing stance, why do you deny that ?? Inevery area of policy your policys as published and now withdrawn adhere to a right wing aganda why do you deny this? Logically being right wing does not mean that you are wrong, so why deny it??? Logically being Tory does not make you wrong so why deny it??? the fact is irrespective of any merit to your position or not you are a right wing party, that is a tory party. The answer logically is that you want todupe people into voteing for you, just like the Orange book Libdem people, you are acting in the same way denying your Tory heart, why????[/p][/quote]As I said before, we do not fit your moulds, we are UKIP and we are different. We will do what is right irrespective of labels others might try to attach. We are proud not to be Tories, LibDems or Labour. We are proud to be UKIP. I'm still not sure where you stand on this issue. If you were immigration minister with a magic wand, what would you do? 1. Leave things as they are (Unlimited, unplanned unrestricted EU immigration) 2. Restrict Immigration from the EU (planned immigration) 3. Remove all barriers to immigration, inside and outside the EU. ((Free for all) Where do you stand, individually, as a person?[/p][/quote]where I stand personally is that as a citizen of Europe we are at broadly speaking position 2. Now be honest about it you are a right wing party, all your policys are right wing, your MEPs are right wing, your Peers are right wing or Toff just admit it. Whats worse is that you are an establishment right wing party. Also you are pretty crap at chosing candidates in the Eastern Region one fraud one Tory and Blooms apprentice dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

2:02pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

What are you saying. You would like position 2 to be true or that you think position 2 is the current position of the UK? I'm not clear on your answer.

Please be clear.
What are you saying. You would like position 2 to be true or that you think position 2 is the current position of the UK? I'm not clear on your answer. Please be clear. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 1

2:17pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
What are you saying. You would like position 2 to be true or that you think position 2 is the current position of the UK? I'm not clear on your answer.

Please be clear.
there goes a typo clearly 1

but come on you are have not answered re being a right wing establishment party as reflected by your policy have you, oh yes your denial.
why then your party's hatred of unions
why then your party's right wing Tory stance on every issue
why other than that is what you are
why other than you are lying to the voters just like the libdems!!!
now I don't mean little lies you are denying your soul like a Judas, for a few votes sorry but you are no different than the Libdems.
Also you are below contempt for this I mean I do not like Tony Blair but at least he was honest about it (New Labour) .
Come on be honest stride the streets as a right wing elitest party that is what you are!!!!
Either that or start engaging with those on the left that are anti EU and modify your policy's accordingly
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: What are you saying. You would like position 2 to be true or that you think position 2 is the current position of the UK? I'm not clear on your answer. Please be clear.[/p][/quote]there goes a typo clearly 1 but come on you are have not answered re being a right wing establishment party as reflected by your policy have you, oh yes your denial. why then your party's hatred of unions why then your party's right wing Tory stance on every issue why other than that is what you are why other than you are lying to the voters just like the libdems!!! now I don't mean little lies you are denying your soul like a Judas, for a few votes sorry but you are no different than the Libdems. Also you are below contempt for this I mean I do not like Tony Blair but at least he was honest about it (New Labour) . Come on be honest stride the streets as a right wing elitest party that is what you are!!!! Either that or start engaging with those on the left that are anti EU and modify your policy's accordingly dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

2:35pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Dontknowwhynot

if you or any Labour supporters are anti-EU, and we know a large number of you are, then you are quite possibly, at least under Milliband, in the wrong party. You must know that.

Come and join UKIP and make a case for your policies, get them adopted by UKIP.

We're not loony left or loony right, we are UKIP and we are open to common sense proposals. If your policies are based on common sense you have every possibility of getting them adopted. If they are not, they don't deserve to be adopted.

We're holding a meeting on 30th January at the Town and Country Club in Watford (Rosslyn Road), 7:30. Come along, speak to me after the meeting, ask questions during the meeting, and I'll even buy you a drink and we can talk about whatever you issues you like. It sounds like there is room for common ground. C'mon, you know you want to.
Dontknowwhynot if you or any Labour supporters are anti-EU, and we know a large number of you are, then you are quite possibly, at least under Milliband, in the wrong party. You must know that. Come and join UKIP and make a case for your policies, get them adopted by UKIP. We're not loony left or loony right, we are UKIP and we are open to common sense proposals. If your policies are based on common sense you have every possibility of getting them adopted. If they are not, they don't deserve to be adopted. We're holding a meeting on 30th January at the Town and Country Club in Watford (Rosslyn Road), 7:30. Come along, speak to me after the meeting, ask questions during the meeting, and I'll even buy you a drink and we can talk about whatever you issues you like. It sounds like there is room for common ground. C'mon, you know you want to. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

2:43pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Dontknowwhynot

if you or any Labour supporters are anti-EU, and we know a large number of you are, then you are quite possibly, at least under Milliband, in the wrong party. You must know that.

Come and join UKIP and make a case for your policies, get them adopted by UKIP.

We're not loony left or loony right, we are UKIP and we are open to common sense proposals. If your policies are based on common sense you have every possibility of getting them adopted. If they are not, they don't deserve to be adopted.

We're holding a meeting on 30th January at the Town and Country Club in Watford (Rosslyn Road), 7:30. Come along, speak to me after the meeting, ask questions during the meeting, and I'll even buy you a drink and we can talk about whatever you issues you like. It sounds like there is room for common ground. C'mon, you know you want to.
the point is that with right wing policys your party is NOT the right party, you know that and that is why you wont admit to being a Right wing party, as such you are denying your Tory soul and are no better than the Libdem Orangebook scum who got in gov on the back of the Socialy democratic Libdems.
Your party is right wing elitist and trying to con people into believing it is not
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Dontknowwhynot if you or any Labour supporters are anti-EU, and we know a large number of you are, then you are quite possibly, at least under Milliband, in the wrong party. You must know that. Come and join UKIP and make a case for your policies, get them adopted by UKIP. We're not loony left or loony right, we are UKIP and we are open to common sense proposals. If your policies are based on common sense you have every possibility of getting them adopted. If they are not, they don't deserve to be adopted. We're holding a meeting on 30th January at the Town and Country Club in Watford (Rosslyn Road), 7:30. Come along, speak to me after the meeting, ask questions during the meeting, and I'll even buy you a drink and we can talk about whatever you issues you like. It sounds like there is room for common ground. C'mon, you know you want to.[/p][/quote]the point is that with right wing policys your party is NOT the right party, you know that and that is why you wont admit to being a Right wing party, as such you are denying your Tory soul and are no better than the Libdem Orangebook scum who got in gov on the back of the Socialy democratic Libdems. Your party is right wing elitist and trying to con people into believing it is not dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

2:58pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Come along and find out for yourself. The offer is there.

You never know, you might pleasantly surprise yourself.
Come along and find out for yourself. The offer is there. You never know, you might pleasantly surprise yourself. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Wed 15 Jan 14

CaptainPC says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Boosey wrote:
Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?
Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.
This guy isn't really Phil Cox.

The real Phil Cox stood as a councillor and all his details are in the public domain. He waorks for the "Best boss of all."

I think D Penn is another misrepresentation as well........

Can't believe that someone would go to all this trouble to discredit people by posing as them on a website and spouting arrant nonsense but each to their own.

X
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Boosey[/bold] wrote: Vote UKIP and do jack **** all day and spout a load of political crap on the Watford Observer website all day! Phil what do you actually do for a living?[/p][/quote]Sorry, private life is private. As it should be.[/p][/quote]This guy isn't really Phil Cox. The real Phil Cox stood as a councillor and all his details are in the public domain. He waorks for the "Best boss of all." I think D Penn is another misrepresentation as well........ Can't believe that someone would go to all this trouble to discredit people by posing as them on a website and spouting arrant nonsense but each to their own. X CaptainPC
  • Score: 0

3:54pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Come along and find out for yourself. The offer is there.

You never know, you might pleasantly surprise yourself.
come on now there is and never has been room for anyone on the left in your party, they do not fit in with your leaders view of the world & have to go.
In fact that is what happaned to our second UKIP MEP he didn't fit in with the agenda of Farage and went Tory.
Get a left wing policy adopted by UKIP you have more chance of having a branch made up of Romanian Lesbians
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Come along and find out for yourself. The offer is there. You never know, you might pleasantly surprise yourself.[/p][/quote]come on now there is and never has been room for anyone on the left in your party, they do not fit in with your leaders view of the world & have to go. In fact that is what happaned to our second UKIP MEP he didn't fit in with the agenda of Farage and went Tory. Get a left wing policy adopted by UKIP you have more chance of having a branch made up of Romanian Lesbians dontknowynot
  • Score: 2

4:33pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Left, Right, what does it matter?

If something is the right thing to do, backed by common sense, who cares if it could be classed left or right?

Arthur Scargill was a fan of Right-to-buy, a controversial policy from his arch-enemy Margaret Thatcher. Diane Abbott (arch-leftie) believes in using private schools despite telling everyone else that state education is perfectly good enough for them, but not for her son. The hypocracy is breathtaking of those who would class themselves as classic lefties.

Left and Right are just words used to control people like you and I. The best path forward lies somewhere inbetween and looks after all the people, rich and poor alike.

UKIP is that path.
Left, Right, what does it matter? If something is the right thing to do, backed by common sense, who cares if it could be classed left or right? Arthur Scargill was a fan of Right-to-buy, a controversial policy from his arch-enemy Margaret Thatcher. Diane Abbott (arch-leftie) believes in using private schools despite telling everyone else that state education is perfectly good enough for them, but not for her son. The hypocracy is breathtaking of those who would class themselves as classic lefties. Left and Right are just words used to control people like you and I. The best path forward lies somewhere inbetween and looks after all the people, rich and poor alike. UKIP is that path. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

4:57pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Left, Right, what does it matter?

If something is the right thing to do, backed by common sense, who cares if it could be classed left or right?

Arthur Scargill was a fan of Right-to-buy, a controversial policy from his arch-enemy Margaret Thatcher. Diane Abbott (arch-leftie) believes in using private schools despite telling everyone else that state education is perfectly good enough for them, but not for her son. The hypocracy is breathtaking of those who would class themselves as classic lefties.

Left and Right are just words used to control people like you and I. The best path forward lies somewhere inbetween and looks after all the people, rich and poor alike.

UKIP is that path.
then why not one policy that can be associated with the left?

Look at UKIP on health same as Tory only more so
On benefits same thing
On workers rights ditto.
Cn defence its like something out of the fifties
On climate change and environment, in this region with large swaths set to be flooded your party is in denial at the command of your deputy leader.
Your party has booted out trade unionists but is home to bankers,
Your party backs all manor of tory policies, it is true blue and you know it.
Come on tell me one of your MEP's who isn't right wing, you can't because they all areas are your policies not one is associated with the left not one!
Now you can tell me all you like about this or that hypocrite MPit does not change the facts.
The only exception could be leaving the EU it was after all Labour policy in 83 the left wing has always had a socialist element that disliked the EU and after all historically the centre of the Tory party has always been enthusiastic over EU. That is ever since Winston Churchill first proposed a united states of Europe Tory PMs have marched on toward EU even if they pretended not to hold the banner Single euro act and Mastricht being far more significant than anything Labour did.
BTW had it not been for Ed Balls and Gordon Brown we would have the Euro now, so when you spout on about Europe remember that the left has done more than the right to maintain a position whereby exit would be possable
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Left, Right, what does it matter? If something is the right thing to do, backed by common sense, who cares if it could be classed left or right? Arthur Scargill was a fan of Right-to-buy, a controversial policy from his arch-enemy Margaret Thatcher. Diane Abbott (arch-leftie) believes in using private schools despite telling everyone else that state education is perfectly good enough for them, but not for her son. The hypocracy is breathtaking of those who would class themselves as classic lefties. Left and Right are just words used to control people like you and I. The best path forward lies somewhere inbetween and looks after all the people, rich and poor alike. UKIP is that path.[/p][/quote]then why not one policy that can be associated with the left? Look at UKIP on health same as Tory only more so On benefits same thing On workers rights ditto. Cn defence its like something out of the fifties On climate change and environment, in this region with large swaths set to be flooded your party is in denial at the command of your deputy leader. Your party has booted out trade unionists but is home to bankers, Your party backs all manor of tory policies, it is true blue and you know it. Come on tell me one of your MEP's who isn't right wing, you can't because they all areas are your policies not one is associated with the left not one! Now you can tell me all you like about this or that hypocrite MPit does not change the facts. The only exception could be leaving the EU it was after all Labour policy in 83 the left wing has always had a socialist element that disliked the EU and after all historically the centre of the Tory party has always been enthusiastic over EU. That is ever since Winston Churchill first proposed a united states of Europe Tory PMs have marched on toward EU even if they pretended not to hold the banner Single euro act and Mastricht being far more significant than anything Labour did. BTW had it not been for Ed Balls and Gordon Brown we would have the Euro now, so when you spout on about Europe remember that the left has done more than the right to maintain a position whereby exit would be possable dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

5:00pm Wed 15 Jan 14

angryangryangry says...

I got bored halfway down the page! So much he said you said stuff which once again is totally unrelated to the actual article!
I got bored halfway down the page! So much he said you said stuff which once again is totally unrelated to the actual article! angryangryangry
  • Score: 0

5:10pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

angryangryangry wrote:
I got bored halfway down the page! So much he said you said stuff which once again is totally unrelated to the actual article!
yep well that was half the point really anything is better than benefit baiting :-)
[quote][p][bold]angryangryangry[/bold] wrote: I got bored halfway down the page! So much he said you said stuff which once again is totally unrelated to the actual article![/p][/quote]yep well that was half the point really anything is better than benefit baiting :-) dontknowynot
  • Score: 1

5:17pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

I agree, I think all has been said that needs to be said. See you at the meeting on the 30th DKYN?

I'm going to unsubscribe from this now as it's way off subject.
I agree, I think all has been said that needs to be said. See you at the meeting on the 30th DKYN? I'm going to unsubscribe from this now as it's way off subject. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

5:19pm Wed 15 Jan 14

dontknowynot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
I agree, I think all has been said that needs to be said. See you at the meeting on the 30th DKYN?

I'm going to unsubscribe from this now as it's way off subject.
if only
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: I agree, I think all has been said that needs to be said. See you at the meeting on the 30th DKYN? I'm going to unsubscribe from this now as it's way off subject.[/p][/quote]if only dontknowynot
  • Score: 0

8:54am Thu 16 Jan 14

CaptainPC says...

If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party.
If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party. CaptainPC
  • Score: 2

12:04pm Fri 17 Jan 14

Harry's Bar says...

CaptainPC wrote:
If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party.
Strange he didn't reply to your post when he replied to every other post.
[quote][p][bold]CaptainPC[/bold] wrote: If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party.[/p][/quote]Strange he didn't reply to your post when he replied to every other post. Harry's Bar
  • Score: 2

1:42pm Fri 17 Jan 14

CaptainPC says...

Harry's Bar wrote:
CaptainPC wrote:
If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party.
Strange he didn't reply to your post when he replied to every other post.
Because it's not him.
[quote][p][bold]Harry's Bar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CaptainPC[/bold] wrote: If we can all pretend to be other people then I'm David "Dave" Cameron and I demand that all working class males babies are seized by the state and held cryogenically until their organs are required by members of the Tory party.[/p][/quote]Strange he didn't reply to your post when he replied to every other post.[/p][/quote]Because it's not him. CaptainPC
  • Score: 2

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