Muslim business-owner condemns provocative posters depicting Prophet Muhammad

Watford Observer: Muslim business-owner condemns provocative posters depicting Prophet Muhammad Muslim business-owner condemns provocative posters depicting Prophet Muhammad

A Muslim business-owner in West Watford has condemned provocative posters depicting the Prophet Muhammad, which appeared around the area.

Numan Majeed, who runs an accountancy business based in Queens Road, described the people behind the campaign as "provocateurs" and said the posters "absolutely unacceptable".

The 33-year-old said he and others had been quietly taking the posters down as they did not want to draw attention to them before they were highlighted in a recent political debate.

Police are investigating the posters that were put up around West Watford with "Draw Muhammad Day" written on them and had scrawled drawings of the prophet.

The posters also carried slogans such as "death to those who insult free speech" and appear to be linked to a campaign that started in 2010 relating to censorship of an episode of the US cartoon series South Park.

Mr Majeed said: "The recent provocateurs attempt to Insult the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) in West Watford is absolutely unacceptable.

"Watford’s Muslim Community amounts to several thousand and are part of the towns landscape. We are descendants of immigrants from the 50s and 60s, majority of the second and third generations were born in the town and it is the place we call home.

"The Watford Muslim community contributes positively to the fabric of the town, bringing cuisines from various different continents with the variety of restaurants, businesses that employ people from the town and the many who are employed in the public sector, providing invaluable services."

Mr Majeed added that Muslims in the area had been quietly removing the posters as they did not want make a fuss over them because they were intended to be provocative.

However this week the issue was raised Monday night’s mayoral hustings debate in Watford. At the meeting the Liberal Democrat mayor, Dorothy Thornhill said she felt there it was "no coincidence" the posters had appeared at a time when the UK Independence Party was on the rise in the town.

Phil Cox, the UK Independence Party mayoral candidate, later accused the mayor using the posters for "political ends". He said on Tuesday he went around taking posters he found down and handing them into the police.

Mr Majeed, a founder of the Watford Muslims Facebook page, added: "As a community, we are peaceful, open minded and unfortunately due to the misinformation from some politicians and media outlets, we are misunderstood.

"We hold beliefs that are dear to us, which we are happy for people to question, debate, discuss and disagree but not insult. Surely, a civilised, mature community cannot be proud of elements that seek to insult, ridicule what others hold sacrosanct? Surely freedom cannot mean the right to abuse? If it does with no consideration for others, is that humane?"

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9:20pm Fri 23 May 14

Speak up for freedom says...

Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve
Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve Speak up for freedom
  • Score: 17

11:52pm Fri 23 May 14

LSC says...

Speak up for freedom wrote:
Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve
I disagree. Satire should deliver offence or even insult to those who ask for it or deserve it. Long may that continue.
But this upsets the 'average' (for want of a better word) muslim of Watford. The guys up at 5am working for a living like everyone else, looking after and loving their families, doing what they do and not hurting anyone. I take no pleasure in seeing people like that insulted on the streets of our country.
I don't really know WHY it is insulting, but apparently it is.

I think islam is as wrong as any other religion, and we all know 99.99% of religion is wrong because of the simple fact there are so many religions and they can't all be right by definition. I happen to think 100% of religion is wrong, so that means there is only a 0.01% chance I'm incorrect, which is good enough for me. (In fact, the are so many sub-divisions, my odds are actually better than that. Probably 0.00001% that there is a god).

But insults on our streets is not the way. The way is education.
[quote][p][bold]Speak up for freedom[/bold] wrote: Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve[/p][/quote]I disagree. Satire should deliver offence or even insult to those who ask for it or deserve it. Long may that continue. But this upsets the 'average' (for want of a better word) muslim of Watford. The guys up at 5am working for a living like everyone else, looking after and loving their families, doing what they do and not hurting anyone. I take no pleasure in seeing people like that insulted on the streets of our country. I don't really know WHY it is insulting, but apparently it is. I think islam is as wrong as any other religion, and we all know 99.99% of religion is wrong because of the simple fact there are so many religions and they can't all be right by definition. I happen to think 100% of religion is wrong, so that means there is only a 0.01% chance I'm incorrect, which is good enough for me. (In fact, the are so many sub-divisions, my odds are actually better than that. Probably 0.00001% that there is a god). But insults on our streets is not the way. The way is education. LSC
  • Score: -8

12:43am Sat 24 May 14

Popeonarope says...

LSC wrote:
Speak up for freedom wrote:
Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve
I disagree. Satire should deliver offence or even insult to those who ask for it or deserve it. Long may that continue.
But this upsets the 'average' (for want of a better word) muslim of Watford. The guys up at 5am working for a living like everyone else, looking after and loving their families, doing what they do and not hurting anyone. I take no pleasure in seeing people like that insulted on the streets of our country.
I don't really know WHY it is insulting, but apparently it is.

I think islam is as wrong as any other religion, and we all know 99.99% of religion is wrong because of the simple fact there are so many religions and they can't all be right by definition. I happen to think 100% of religion is wrong, so that means there is only a 0.01% chance I'm incorrect, which is good enough for me. (In fact, the are so many sub-divisions, my odds are actually better than that. Probably 0.00001% that there is a god).

But insults on our streets is not the way. The way is education.
"Thumbs up"
[quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Speak up for freedom[/bold] wrote: Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve[/p][/quote]I disagree. Satire should deliver offence or even insult to those who ask for it or deserve it. Long may that continue. But this upsets the 'average' (for want of a better word) muslim of Watford. The guys up at 5am working for a living like everyone else, looking after and loving their families, doing what they do and not hurting anyone. I take no pleasure in seeing people like that insulted on the streets of our country. I don't really know WHY it is insulting, but apparently it is. I think islam is as wrong as any other religion, and we all know 99.99% of religion is wrong because of the simple fact there are so many religions and they can't all be right by definition. I happen to think 100% of religion is wrong, so that means there is only a 0.01% chance I'm incorrect, which is good enough for me. (In fact, the are so many sub-divisions, my odds are actually better than that. Probably 0.00001% that there is a god). But insults on our streets is not the way. The way is education.[/p][/quote]"Thumbs up" Popeonarope
  • Score: -4

6:21am Sat 24 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Speak up for freedom wrote:
Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve
What could possibly go wrong with living your life by following ancient laws written by anonymous authors in dead languages by ignorant, racist, sexist, genocidal, superstitious goat herding primitives who believed everything they couldn't explain in the world was magic?



Orthodox Jews, including Orthodox Jewish scientists, condemn the theory of evolution, and strongly believe that the world was created 5,771 years ago.
Their belief that the revelation at Sinai makes them the chosen people and are based in the horrors taught in the old testament makes them extreme.
The fact that in Israel they flout human rights, openly break international laws, oppress other racial groups and murder dissenters makes them extreme.

These extremists, along with all other groups who consider themselves superior because a book written by superstitious primitives says so should not be allowed to do as they please without objection and censure.
[quote][p][bold]Speak up for freedom[/bold] wrote: Satire automatically delivers offence in the right dose: the amount of offence you take is exactly the amount you deserve[/p][/quote]What could possibly go wrong with living your life by following ancient laws written by anonymous authors in dead languages by ignorant, racist, sexist, genocidal, superstitious goat herding primitives who believed everything they couldn't explain in the world was magic? Orthodox Jews, including Orthodox Jewish scientists, condemn the theory of evolution, and strongly believe that the world was created 5,771 years ago. Their belief that the revelation at Sinai makes them the chosen people and are based in the horrors taught in the old testament makes them extreme. The fact that in Israel they flout human rights, openly break international laws, oppress other racial groups and murder dissenters makes them extreme. These extremists, along with all other groups who consider themselves superior because a book written by superstitious primitives says so should not be allowed to do as they please without objection and censure. bishopofwatford
  • Score: 0

9:28am Sat 24 May 14

Cooke 11 says...

Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it?
Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it? Cooke 11
  • Score: -4

10:30am Sat 24 May 14

Playa says...

Cooke 11 wrote:
Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it?
Anyone is welcome to join. It is an open public facebook page. Wasn't it best you checked that first rather than making assumptions on here?
[quote][p][bold]Cooke 11[/bold] wrote: Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it?[/p][/quote]Anyone is welcome to join. It is an open public facebook page. Wasn't it best you checked that first rather than making assumptions on here? Playa
  • Score: 10

11:17am Sat 24 May 14

IkkieH says...

It appears assumptions being made are in the hope of receiving the answer they want, which unfortunately was not the one you gave them Playa. Much like you offering Roy the chance to understand on the last thread and him rejecting because he's happy with his side of the stories he hears.

Just join the page and fire away with questions if you genuinely are intrigued. If you troll the page, don't scream and shout about how you aren't being taken seriously.
It appears assumptions being made are in the hope of receiving the answer they want, which unfortunately was not the one you gave them Playa. Much like you offering Roy the chance to understand on the last thread and him rejecting because he's happy with his side of the stories he hears. Just join the page and fire away with questions if you genuinely are intrigued. If you troll the page, don't scream and shout about how you aren't being taken seriously. IkkieH
  • Score: 4

10:20pm Sat 24 May 14

Cooke 11 says...

Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.
Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled. Cooke 11
  • Score: 8

10:21pm Sat 24 May 14

Cooke 11 says...

Playa wrote:
Cooke 11 wrote:
Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it?
Anyone is welcome to join. It is an open public facebook page. Wasn't it best you checked that first rather than making assumptions on here?
10:20pm Sat 24 May 14
Cooke 11 says...

Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.
[quote][p][bold]Playa[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cooke 11[/bold] wrote: Founder of the Watford Muslims face book page, so can anyone join the group or are we not welcome, we'll that would be racist wouldn't it?[/p][/quote]Anyone is welcome to join. It is an open public facebook page. Wasn't it best you checked that first rather than making assumptions on here?[/p][/quote]10:20pm Sat 24 May 14 Cooke 11 says... Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled. Cooke 11
  • Score: 1

8:07am Mon 26 May 14

garston tony says...

The name of the facebook group only infers segregation if you want it too, in reality its just a description of what the page is about.

by your theory if you set up a facebook page called Cooke11 youre aegregating all Cooke11's as that page is only for people with that name.
People like you and some of the other posters on here deliberately set out to have a chip on your shoulder
The name of the facebook group only infers segregation if you want it too, in reality its just a description of what the page is about. by your theory if you set up a facebook page called Cooke11 youre aegregating all Cooke11's as that page is only for people with that name. People like you and some of the other posters on here deliberately set out to have a chip on your shoulder garston tony
  • Score: -3

3:07pm Mon 26 May 14

Playa says...

Cooke 11 wrote:
Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.
OK. So on that basis let's stop calling the Watford Observer as it indicates regionalism and therefore discriminates against all Watfordians.

Do me a favour ...
[quote][p][bold]Cooke 11[/bold] wrote: Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.[/p][/quote]OK. So on that basis let's stop calling the Watford Observer as it indicates regionalism and therefore discriminates against all Watfordians. Do me a favour ... Playa
  • Score: 1

3:07pm Mon 26 May 14

Playa says...

Playa wrote:
Cooke 11 wrote:
Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.
OK. So on that basis let's stop calling the Watford Observer as it indicates regionalism and therefore discriminates against all Watfordians.

Do me a favour ...
Non-Watfordians
[quote][p][bold]Playa[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cooke 11[/bold] wrote: Playa, i did not feel the need to check first as I'm not a Watford muslim so why would I be interested in joining, I was just a asking the question. The name of the group would suggest religious segregation, which only certain people are fortunate to be able to do these days without being labeled.[/p][/quote]OK. So on that basis let's stop calling the Watford Observer as it indicates regionalism and therefore discriminates against all Watfordians. Do me a favour ...[/p][/quote]Non-Watfordians Playa
  • Score: 0

3:40pm Mon 26 May 14

LSC says...

IkkieH wrote:
It appears assumptions being made are in the hope of receiving the answer they want, which unfortunately was not the one you gave them Playa. Much like you offering Roy the chance to understand on the last thread and him rejecting because he's happy with his side of the stories he hears.

Just join the page and fire away with questions if you genuinely are intrigued. If you troll the page, don't scream and shout about how you aren't being taken seriously.
While I am intrigued, I somehow feel I wouldn't be very welcomed. I see a woman recently has been condemmed to death under the laws of islam for marrying a christian and saying she doesn't want to be a muslim anymore. She is also getting a few lashes first.
So, torture and death for having a free will and falling in love.

Now I know 99.9% of muslims think that is as disgusting as I do, but it is your flag they are flying.

I'm not picking on muslims. A catholic girl falling in love with a British soldier could have cost her life in the '70s and '80s. And did.

Religion is a very, very dangerous thing.
[quote][p][bold]IkkieH[/bold] wrote: It appears assumptions being made are in the hope of receiving the answer they want, which unfortunately was not the one you gave them Playa. Much like you offering Roy the chance to understand on the last thread and him rejecting because he's happy with his side of the stories he hears. Just join the page and fire away with questions if you genuinely are intrigued. If you troll the page, don't scream and shout about how you aren't being taken seriously.[/p][/quote]While I am intrigued, I somehow feel I wouldn't be very welcomed. I see a woman recently has been condemmed to death under the laws of islam for marrying a christian and saying she doesn't want to be a muslim anymore. She is also getting a few lashes first. So, torture and death for having a free will and falling in love. Now I know 99.9% of muslims think that is as disgusting as I do, but it is your flag they are flying. I'm not picking on muslims. A catholic girl falling in love with a British soldier could have cost her life in the '70s and '80s. And did. Religion is a very, very dangerous thing. LSC
  • Score: 7

7:41am Tue 27 May 14

garston tony says...

So LSC you believe that 99.9% of Muslims would condem someone being sentence to death because they are a Christian but you use the actions of the 0.1% of those that you think wouldnt as a reason not to engage, as a reason to believe you wouldnt be welcome if you approached a Muslim group to find out more about them, as a reason to condem the whole group yourself.

That. Does. Not. Make. Any. Sense!

I've said this a number of times and you keep proving me right, you and a lot of other people just look at the extreme elements who are the minority and choose to use their actions to condem the whole. What nonsense.

Religion isnt a dangerous thing, people are. And people dont just use religion to do dangerous things, they can use anything and everything in pursuit of whatever gives them their kicks. And as long as you and people like you just look at the 0.1% to form your opinion you are allowing that minority to win.
So LSC you believe that 99.9% of Muslims would condem someone being sentence to death because they are a Christian but you use the actions of the 0.1% of those that you think wouldnt as a reason not to engage, as a reason to believe you wouldnt be welcome if you approached a Muslim group to find out more about them, as a reason to condem the whole group yourself. That. Does. Not. Make. Any. Sense! I've said this a number of times and you keep proving me right, you and a lot of other people just look at the extreme elements who are the minority and choose to use their actions to condem the whole. What nonsense. Religion isnt a dangerous thing, people are. And people dont just use religion to do dangerous things, they can use anything and everything in pursuit of whatever gives them their kicks. And as long as you and people like you just look at the 0.1% to form your opinion you are allowing that minority to win. garston tony
  • Score: -2

8:02am Tue 27 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

"Religion isnt a dangerous thing, people are. And people dont just use religion to do dangerous things, they can use anything and everything in pursuit of whatever gives them their kicks. And as long as you and people like you just look at the 0.1% to form your opinion you are allowing that minority to win."

Using that logic do you support the action of the Christian crusaders in the middle ages ?

How about shariah law .......remind me what are the punishments for theft or adultery ( aparently applied to women more rigoutously than to men ) ?

Was Adolf justified in his actions against groups he took a messianic dislike to?

Religious leaders are egomaniac , control freaks ,who manipulate the gullible.
"Religion isnt a dangerous thing, people are. And people dont just use religion to do dangerous things, they can use anything and everything in pursuit of whatever gives them their kicks. And as long as you and people like you just look at the 0.1% to form your opinion you are allowing that minority to win." Using that logic do you support the action of the Christian crusaders in the middle ages ? How about shariah law .......remind me what are the punishments for theft or adultery ( aparently applied to women more rigoutously than to men ) ? Was Adolf justified in his actions against groups he took a messianic dislike to? Religious leaders are egomaniac , control freaks ,who manipulate the gullible. bishopofwatford
  • Score: 5

11:23am Tue 27 May 14

LSC says...

Tony. what I am saying is although I think only 0.1% of religious people use it for evil, the majority of the rest do not condemn those actions. They daren't, no matter how they may feel inside.
They are afraid of their various gods, and afraid of their own community. Being an outcast from a christian church in Garston for voicing an opinion would probably be bearable, but being an outcast in a village in Pakistan is unthinkable, and sometimes terminal.
This fear from the masses due to the brainwashing from an early age allows the 0.1% ultimate power to obtain wealth and undeservered respect, which is what they crave.
It is no co-incedence that ALL religious top brass are Alpha Males.
Tony. what I am saying is although I think only 0.1% of religious people use it for evil, the majority of the rest do not condemn those actions. They daren't, no matter how they may feel inside. They are afraid of their various gods, and afraid of their own community. Being an outcast from a christian church in Garston for voicing an opinion would probably be bearable, but being an outcast in a village in Pakistan is unthinkable, and sometimes terminal. This fear from the masses due to the brainwashing from an early age allows the 0.1% ultimate power to obtain wealth and undeservered respect, which is what they crave. It is no co-incedence that ALL religious top brass are Alpha Males. LSC
  • Score: 2

12:28pm Tue 27 May 14

garston tony says...

LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name.

However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look!

This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down.

Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too garston tony
  • Score: 0

6:11pm Tue 27 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

Interesting story from The Independent today.....

"A 25-year-old woman has been stoned to death by her family in front of a Pakistan high court for marrying a man she was in love with, police in Lahore have said. Police official Naseem Butt said 20 members of Farzana Iqbal’s family attacked her and her husband with sticks and bricks in broad daylight on Tuesday before a crowd of onlookers. Mr Butt said Ms Iqbal had married Mohammad Iqbal while she was engaged to her cousin. She had been waiting for the High Court in the eastern city of Lahore to open when the attack took place."

Later we find the following.....

"Around 1,000 Pakistani women are killed every year by their families in honour killings, according to Pakistani rights group the Aurat Foundation, but the true figure is probably even higher. The Aurat Foundation only produces figures based on newspaper reports and the government does not compile national statistics.

"Cases that do result in a conviction can still see the killer walk free, as Pakistani law allows a victim's family to forgive their killer. The killer is often a member of the victim's family, allowing them to nominate a person to commit the act who would then be forgiven."

More than 1,000 women murdered every year by their own families in so-called "honour killings"? Possibly this sort of unbelievable medieval barbarity is one reason why many people feel as they do about Islam?
Interesting story from The Independent today..... "A 25-year-old woman has been stoned to death by her family in front of a Pakistan high court for marrying a man she was in love with, police in Lahore have said. Police official Naseem Butt said 20 members of Farzana Iqbal’s family attacked her and her husband with sticks and bricks in broad daylight on Tuesday before a crowd of onlookers. Mr Butt said Ms Iqbal had married Mohammad Iqbal while she was engaged to her cousin. She had been waiting for the High Court in the eastern city of Lahore to open when the attack took place." Later we find the following..... "Around 1,000 Pakistani women are killed every year by their families in honour killings, according to Pakistani rights group the Aurat Foundation, but the true figure is probably even higher. The Aurat Foundation only produces figures based on newspaper reports and the government does not compile national statistics. "Cases that do result in a conviction can still see the killer walk free, as Pakistani law allows a victim's family to forgive their killer. The killer is often a member of the victim's family, allowing them to nominate a person to commit the act who would then be forgiven." More than 1,000 women murdered every year by their own families in so-called "honour killings"? Possibly this sort of unbelievable medieval barbarity is one reason why many people feel as they do about Islam? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 4

6:22pm Tue 27 May 14

Popeonarope says...

garston tony wrote:
LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name.

However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look!

This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down.

Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty.
I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful.
What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues?
The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions?
Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it. Popeonarope
  • Score: 3

6:23pm Tue 27 May 14

Popeonarope says...

garston tony wrote:
LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name.

However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look!

This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down.

Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty.
I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful.
What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues?
The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions?
Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it. Popeonarope
  • Score: 3

6:34pm Tue 27 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

I look forward to a statement from the Watford Muslim community unequivocally condemning the horrific stoning to death of a 25-year-old woman in Pakistan for apparently marrying the wrong man.
I look forward to a statement from the Watford Muslim community unequivocally condemning the horrific stoning to death of a 25-year-old woman in Pakistan for apparently marrying the wrong man. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 6

6:39pm Tue 27 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
I look forward to a statement from the Watford Muslim community unequivocally condemning the horrific stoning to death of a 25-year-old woman in Pakistan for apparently marrying the wrong man.
I think you may have rather a long wait there Roy !
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: I look forward to a statement from the Watford Muslim community unequivocally condemning the horrific stoning to death of a 25-year-old woman in Pakistan for apparently marrying the wrong man.[/p][/quote]I think you may have rather a long wait there Roy ! bishopofwatford
  • Score: 4

6:50pm Tue 27 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

Yes, I suspect that too!
Yes, I suspect that too! Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 1

6:51pm Tue 27 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote:
LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name.

However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look!

This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down.

Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty.
I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful.
What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues?
The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions?
Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking.

I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate
exactly what they are part of.
[quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of. bishopofwatford
  • Score: 3

9:47pm Tue 27 May 14

LSC says...

garston tony wrote:
LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name.

However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look!

This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down.

Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings.
Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud.
I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them. LSC
  • Score: 2

10:06pm Tue 27 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

LSC wrote.,....

>My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings.
Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud.
I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.<

Hear hear! Muslims, however much they may claim they are moderate, are either too cowardly or too much in agreement with the more fanatical in their midst to speak out against the more barbaric elements in their culture.
LSC wrote.,.... >My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.< Hear hear! Muslims, however much they may claim they are moderate, are either too cowardly or too much in agreement with the more fanatical in their midst to speak out against the more barbaric elements in their culture. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 2

10:58pm Tue 27 May 14

Speak up for freedom says...

Islam in all its evil capacity is an attempt to get control over the sensory world, in which we are placed, by means of the wish-world, which we have developed inside us as a result of biological and psychological necessities. If one attempts to assign to the primitive ideals islam, its place in man's evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition, as a parallel to the neurosis which the non-civilized individual must pass through on its way from childhood to maturity. This person they believe to be a prophet? Simply perpetuates this myth that they hold on to so dearly to the extent they act like children if anyone speaks against it. How absurd! I reject their stupidity. We see evidence of this destructive cult/religion throughout the world on a daily basis. How on earth do you defend this most destructive and evil cult that so many people are deluded by? What good has come from it compared to the world wide destruction and horror islam and its followers have caused?
Islam in all its evil capacity is an attempt to get control over the sensory world, in which we are placed, by means of the wish-world, which we have developed inside us as a result of biological and psychological necessities. If one attempts to assign to the primitive ideals islam, its place in man's evolution, it seems not so much to be a lasting acquisition, as a parallel to the neurosis which the non-civilized individual must pass through on its way from childhood to maturity. This person they believe to be a prophet? Simply perpetuates this myth that they hold on to so dearly to the extent they act like children if anyone speaks against it. How absurd! I reject their stupidity. We see evidence of this destructive cult/religion throughout the world on a daily basis. How on earth do you defend this most destructive and evil cult that so many people are deluded by? What good has come from it compared to the world wide destruction and horror islam and its followers have caused? Speak up for freedom
  • Score: 4

11:43pm Tue 27 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 3

12:16am Wed 28 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

"A Pakistani woman has been killed by her relatives outside Lahore High Court for marrying against their wishes. Police said 30-year old Farzana Bibi died on the spot after being attacked with bricks and sticks.

"Her father handed himself in, but police say her brothers and former fiancee, who also took part in the attack, were still free. Correspondents say hundreds of girls and women in Pakistan are killed every year by family members. However, many more killings are believed to go unreported.

"Farzana Bibi's parents accused her husband, Muhammad Iqbal, of kidnapping her, and had filed a case against him at the High Court. However, she testified to police that she had married him of her own accord. Police said the couple had been engaged for a number of years.

"As she arrived at the court building for a hearing, police said about a dozen family members pulled her aside and began to attack her and her husband, who managed to escape.

"Police official Umer Cheema told Reuters that all the family members escaped after the killing, apart from her father, who has admitted his role in her death. The BBC's Shumaila Jaffery says marriage against the wishes of relatives is culturally unacceptable in some parts of Pakistan.

"Under Pakistani law, the victim's family is allowed to forgive the killer. However, in many cases family members are themselves responsible for the killing."

BEYOND BELIEF!!! Backward, medieval Muslim, barbaric scum. Where is the statement from the Watford Muslim community condemning this appalling crime???
"A Pakistani woman has been killed by her relatives outside Lahore High Court for marrying against their wishes. Police said 30-year old Farzana Bibi died on the spot after being attacked with bricks and sticks. "Her father handed himself in, but police say her brothers and former fiancee, who also took part in the attack, were still free. Correspondents say hundreds of girls and women in Pakistan are killed every year by family members. However, many more killings are believed to go unreported. "Farzana Bibi's parents accused her husband, Muhammad Iqbal, of kidnapping her, and had filed a case against him at the High Court. However, she testified to police that she had married him of her own accord. Police said the couple had been engaged for a number of years. "As she arrived at the court building for a hearing, police said about a dozen family members pulled her aside and began to attack her and her husband, who managed to escape. "Police official Umer Cheema told Reuters that all the family members escaped after the killing, apart from her father, who has admitted his role in her death. The BBC's Shumaila Jaffery says marriage against the wishes of relatives is culturally unacceptable in some parts of Pakistan. "Under Pakistani law, the victim's family is allowed to forgive the killer. However, in many cases family members are themselves responsible for the killing." BEYOND BELIEF!!! Backward, medieval Muslim, barbaric scum. Where is the statement from the Watford Muslim community condemning this appalling crime??? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 4

1:12am Wed 28 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her.

This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.
Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 3

8:38am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
No Pope, i'm not saying ignore the extremist just dont tar everyone with the same brush.

LSC stated he believed 0.1% of Muslims were extremists, and on the basis of that 0.1% he wouldnt engage with the other 99.9%. LSC, you, Roy and too many others do exactly the same thing, you look at the 0.1% and act like the whole 100% are exactly the same. Blatently idiotic thinking.
[quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]No Pope, i'm not saying ignore the extremist just dont tar everyone with the same brush. LSC stated he believed 0.1% of Muslims were extremists, and on the basis of that 0.1% he wouldnt engage with the other 99.9%. LSC, you, Roy and too many others do exactly the same thing, you look at the 0.1% and act like the whole 100% are exactly the same. Blatently idiotic thinking. garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:45am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.
Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well.

You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.[/p][/quote]Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done garston tony
  • Score: -1

8:48am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

LSC wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.
And how do you know it is because of their religion that they darent speak out?

In this country Muslims are under constant attack, as your and other posts on this site show all too clearly (and this is mild compared to what has happened elsewhere). Maybe they are not being vocal because they fear people like you LSC
[quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.[/p][/quote]And how do you know it is because of their religion that they darent speak out? In this country Muslims are under constant attack, as your and other posts on this site show all too clearly (and this is mild compared to what has happened elsewhere). Maybe they are not being vocal because they fear people like you LSC garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:49am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

garston tony wrote:
LSC wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.
And how do you know it is because of their religion that they darent speak out? In this country Muslims are under constant attack, as your and other posts on this site show all too clearly (and this is mild compared to what has happened elsewhere). Maybe they are not being vocal because they fear people like you LSC
And still no explanation as to why because of the 0.1% you're not willing to engage with the 99.9%
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]My experience is that you have to fight for peace, however ironic that might sound. Let us hear Watford muslims speak up against sharia law. Against the stonings, the bombings and the honour killings. Perhaps they do. I've not heard it though, so it can't be very loud. I state again, the majority of muslims are decent enough folk. They are, after all just folk. But they are so brow beaten by religion they daren't speak out. They don't know how. I'm sad for them.[/p][/quote]And how do you know it is because of their religion that they darent speak out? In this country Muslims are under constant attack, as your and other posts on this site show all too clearly (and this is mild compared to what has happened elsewhere). Maybe they are not being vocal because they fear people like you LSC[/p][/quote]And still no explanation as to why because of the 0.1% you're not willing to engage with the 99.9% garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:51am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.[/p][/quote]How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye garston tony
  • Score: -2

8:57am Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.
Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy?

On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.[/p][/quote]Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please garston tony
  • Score: -2

9:06am Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.
Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well.

You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done
So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought
and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.[/p][/quote]Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done[/p][/quote]So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at bishopofwatford
  • Score: 0

9:10am Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote:
Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye
You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult.

are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect?

Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.[/p][/quote]How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye[/p][/quote]You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 3

11:28am Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote:
Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.
Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy?

On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please
Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers.

The land of the free ....?

Not for the native americans.

I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.[/p][/quote]Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please[/p][/quote]Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers. The land of the free ....? Not for the native americans. I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life. bishopofwatford
  • Score: 0

11:51am Wed 28 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work.

But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called "honour killings" and not be utterly appalled?

Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is!
Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work. But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called "honour killings" and not be utterly appalled? Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is! Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 4

12:32pm Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work.

But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called &quot;honour killings" and not be utterly appalled?

Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is!
I think we are going to reach an impasse here.....the situation as i see it is
whether an individual is religious privately they will condemn act of violence.

Publicly these individuals are bound by their faith to "tow the line" as decreed by their " holy books" and their religious leaders.

Shame but that is not going to change until these religious leaders are put on the spot and publicly condemn actions carried out " in the name of god or allah or whatever name they choose to follow.

I for one live by the simple notion of treating others as i would wish to be treated by them.

I am spiritual and definitely not religious.

Dave Allen summed all this up by signing off from his shows with " may your god go with you".
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work. But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called "honour killings" and not be utterly appalled? Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is![/p][/quote]I think we are going to reach an impasse here.....the situation as i see it is whether an individual is religious privately they will condemn act of violence. Publicly these individuals are bound by their faith to "tow the line" as decreed by their " holy books" and their religious leaders. Shame but that is not going to change until these religious leaders are put on the spot and publicly condemn actions carried out " in the name of god or allah or whatever name they choose to follow. I for one live by the simple notion of treating others as i would wish to be treated by them. I am spiritual and definitely not religious. Dave Allen summed all this up by signing off from his shows with " may your god go with you". bishopofwatford
  • Score: 2

1:35pm Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.
Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done
So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at
Where have I said that please!

Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe

Another ignorant comment Bishop
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.[/p][/quote]Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done[/p][/quote]So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at[/p][/quote]Where have I said that please! Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe Another ignorant comment Bishop garston tony
  • Score: -3

1:48pm Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work. But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called &quot;honour killings" and not be utterly appalled? Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is!
But Roy where was your press release condemning the actions? After all you expect the Watford Muslim community to make statements about things happening thousands of miles away that only have the most tenuous link to them so the same is surely exptected of you....
..
And the killings had nothing to do with religion Roy, grow up.

All killings are appalling, but its dumb to say 'look, a Muslim murdered someone so all Muslims must agree with it'. Saddly this is just the simplistic thinking that you and others engage in. If you looked beyond your own prejudice you'd also be able to differentiatie between acts carried out due to religion and acts carried out due to regional culture. You'll have noted but ignored the fact that the poor womans father has handed himself into the police who are searching for the others involved in her death showing that in Pakistan - a Muslim country - honour killings are not 'allowed'.

Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise.

Still, what should we expect from an old washed up former red top hack?
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course I condemn and abhor the regular and frequent acts of violence in America, which are attributable to their unbelievably stupid liberal gun laws and the power of the National Rifle Association, also the backwoods mentality of many red-neck Americans gained from watching too many Westerns. And yet again we see in America the disease of extremist religion behind some of these atrocities and the born-again Christian rabble, thinking they are doing God's work. But how can anyone look at the appalling statistic of a thousand women in Pakistan murdered every year in so-called "honour killings" and not be utterly appalled? Straight question, Tony! If I'm talking bull, do you support those Muslims who firmly believe that when they die they will go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins? Because if that isn't utter medieval bull**** I don't know what is![/p][/quote]But Roy where was your press release condemning the actions? After all you expect the Watford Muslim community to make statements about things happening thousands of miles away that only have the most tenuous link to them so the same is surely exptected of you.... .. And the killings had nothing to do with religion Roy, grow up. All killings are appalling, but its dumb to say 'look, a Muslim murdered someone so all Muslims must agree with it'. Saddly this is just the simplistic thinking that you and others engage in. If you looked beyond your own prejudice you'd also be able to differentiatie between acts carried out due to religion and acts carried out due to regional culture. You'll have noted but ignored the fact that the poor womans father has handed himself into the police who are searching for the others involved in her death showing that in Pakistan - a Muslim country - honour killings are not 'allowed'. Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise. Still, what should we expect from an old washed up former red top hack? garston tony
  • Score: -3

1:51pm Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye
You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?
Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on?

And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community.

Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell?
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.[/p][/quote]How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye[/p][/quote]You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?[/p][/quote]Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on? And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community. Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell? garston tony
  • Score: -3

1:57pm Wed 28 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.
Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please
Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers. The land of the free ....? Not for the native americans. I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life.
Yes we should all condem the taking of life, but how are you correlating this incident with that countries origins.....

By all accounts he was a chap who was motivated to do what he did because he couldnt get his end away and who was jealous of more successful siblings and friends and who had issues with a step parents.

What that has to do with native american Indians and European settlers is a wonder to ponder and I dont think you should be putting yourself in the same bracket as clear thinking individuals just yet.
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.[/p][/quote]Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please[/p][/quote]Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers. The land of the free ....? Not for the native americans. I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life.[/p][/quote]Yes we should all condem the taking of life, but how are you correlating this incident with that countries origins..... By all accounts he was a chap who was motivated to do what he did because he couldnt get his end away and who was jealous of more successful siblings and friends and who had issues with a step parents. What that has to do with native american Indians and European settlers is a wonder to ponder and I dont think you should be putting yourself in the same bracket as clear thinking individuals just yet. garston tony
  • Score: -3

9:01pm Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye
You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?
Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on?

And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community.

Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell?
Well how little you understand me.

I have worked in the middle east and have numerous friends of all faiths
my views are based on numerous in depth conversations over four decades.

Specifically christian , jewisih and moslem / muslim friends have all iterated that individually they disagree with certain of their faiths specific teachings but for the sake of their standing in society will not publically pronounce.

By the way ramadan mubarak ( please excuse spelling) .
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.[/p][/quote]How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye[/p][/quote]You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?[/p][/quote]Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on? And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community. Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell?[/p][/quote]Well how little you understand me. I have worked in the middle east and have numerous friends of all faiths my views are based on numerous in depth conversations over four decades. Specifically christian , jewisih and moslem / muslim friends have all iterated that individually they disagree with certain of their faiths specific teachings but for the sake of their standing in society will not publically pronounce. By the way ramadan mubarak ( please excuse spelling) . bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

9:05pm Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.
Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please
Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers. The land of the free ....? Not for the native americans. I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life.
Yes we should all condem the taking of life, but how are you correlating this incident with that countries origins.....

By all accounts he was a chap who was motivated to do what he did because he couldnt get his end away and who was jealous of more successful siblings and friends and who had issues with a step parents.

What that has to do with native american Indians and European settlers is a wonder to ponder and I dont think you should be putting yourself in the same bracket as clear thinking individuals just yet.
See above
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Of course they won't condemn it because many Watford Muslims probably believe in it. They believe a woman deserves to be stoned to death for marrying a man she she loved but not the one her family had chosen for her. This is Islam in action!!!!!! Does it live in the 21st century or the eighth? I ask you? We are talking about medieval, superstitious crap from the Dark Ages but which still impinges itself upon the 21st century and claims victims like this unfortunate young woman, poor soul.[/p][/quote]Why do you think the Watford Muslim community should denounce every thing that happens around the world Roy? On that basis where is your denouncing of what Elliot Rogers did this last Friday please. You dont seem very vocal on that matter, where is your apology to his victims? After all he was a white guy with British heritage and Roy of Watford should obviously be condeming his actions even though he did what he did several thousand miles away and he has no actual connection to the area. But he's white anglo like you Roy, so come on your condemnation please[/p][/quote]Quite right another act of barbarism still what do you expect in a counrty that was stolen by insurgents from the rightful dwellers. The land of the free ....? Not for the native americans. I like any clear thinking individual utterly abhor and condem the taking of any life.[/p][/quote]Yes we should all condem the taking of life, but how are you correlating this incident with that countries origins..... By all accounts he was a chap who was motivated to do what he did because he couldnt get his end away and who was jealous of more successful siblings and friends and who had issues with a step parents. What that has to do with native american Indians and European settlers is a wonder to ponder and I dont think you should be putting yourself in the same bracket as clear thinking individuals just yet.[/p][/quote]See above bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

9:13pm Wed 28 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.
Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done
So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at
Where have I said that please!

Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe

Another ignorant comment Bishop
Nonsense but you keep believing it if that what makes you happy!
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.[/p][/quote]Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done[/p][/quote]So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at[/p][/quote]Where have I said that please! Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe Another ignorant comment Bishop[/p][/quote]Nonsense but you keep believing it if that what makes you happy! bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

10:26pm Wed 28 May 14

Popeonarope says...

Religion is a breeding ground of hostility, dogma fed intolerance and perpetual insecurity about the scary unknown. It give license to its members to believe they are better than others and reinforces this with rituals designed to control their thoughts and deeds by making them feel they are indispensable to the almighty.
We know much of what was once considered 'gospel' truth to be mere fabrication from the genesis story to the wandering the desert to the resurrection, yet many groups insist this is fact. But there are factors that are not so clear cut and are prevalent in the morality and ethical teachings within.
For example, in the same way some followers believe that the commandments are literal and murder is forbidden; that faith can empower them to carry stretchers in a war zone without ever touching a gun. Kudos indeed.
But that same commandment when it suggests that it only applies to a particular group becomes sinister as it implies that murder is fine as long as its NOT in the prohibited group. Now we know of the tribal effect that religion instills so is it such a great leap to say its can be misused? In that case, like gun control all religions should be placed under scrutiny both by the state and its own members and educated in its misuse as its various interpretations are exactly like a loaded gun ready to be used by those who have an agenda.

Islam seems to be more self-righteous than most, maybe because its still relatively new but it also has many interpretations of its requirements which is why we have relatively peaceful Muslims in the UK and some vile child killing zealots in Africa. This is a problem to me as i don't know where the divide is and like a pyramid, the peaceful majority are the foundations for the fewer extremists at the top and are therefore part of the problem.
Religion is a breeding ground of hostility, dogma fed intolerance and perpetual insecurity about the scary unknown. It give license to its members to believe they are better than others and reinforces this with rituals designed to control their thoughts and deeds by making them feel they are indispensable to the almighty. We know much of what was once considered 'gospel' truth to be mere fabrication from the genesis story to the wandering the desert to the resurrection, yet many groups insist this is fact. But there are factors that are not so clear cut and are prevalent in the morality and ethical teachings within. For example, in the same way some followers believe that the commandments are literal and murder is forbidden; that faith can empower them to carry stretchers in a war zone without ever touching a gun. Kudos indeed. But that same commandment when it suggests that it only applies to a particular group becomes sinister as it implies that murder is fine as long as its NOT in the prohibited group. Now we know of the tribal effect that religion instills so is it such a great leap to say its can be misused? In that case, like gun control all religions should be placed under scrutiny both by the state and its own members and educated in its misuse as its various interpretations are exactly like a loaded gun ready to be used by those who have an agenda. Islam seems to be more self-righteous than most, maybe because its still relatively new but it also has many interpretations of its requirements which is why we have relatively peaceful Muslims in the UK and some vile child killing zealots in Africa. This is a problem to me as i don't know where the divide is and like a pyramid, the peaceful majority are the foundations for the fewer extremists at the top and are therefore part of the problem. Popeonarope
  • Score: 6

11:27pm Wed 28 May 14

Enoch Powell says...

Garston Tony, your views on Shariah Law, especially Khalid Mahmood MP's assertion that you cannot cherry pick parts of this legislation, and that it is basically all or nothing.
As you can probably tell I do not want any Shariah Law in this country, and want English Law to prevail. I do not want a parallel legal system either.
Please be completely honest and open and state your full beliefs as I have done.
Garston Tony, your views on Shariah Law, especially Khalid Mahmood MP's assertion that you cannot cherry pick parts of this legislation, and that it is basically all or nothing. As you can probably tell I do not want any Shariah Law in this country, and want English Law to prevail. I do not want a parallel legal system either. Please be completely honest and open and state your full beliefs as I have done. Enoch Powell
  • Score: 1

9:17am Thu 29 May 14

Roy Stockdill says...

>Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise.<

Haven't you noticed that the most radicalised, fundamental, fanatical Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attack on America and other atrocities all believed that in becoming suicide killers they were going to go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins because they had been told so by their evil controllers?

Seriously, how can you possibly believe that anyone who can fall for such nonsense is not seriously deluded, psychopathic, brainwashed or deeply ignorant and backward?
>Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise.< Haven't you noticed that the most radicalised, fundamental, fanatical Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attack on America and other atrocities all believed that in becoming suicide killers they were going to go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins because they had been told so by their evil controllers? Seriously, how can you possibly believe that anyone who can fall for such nonsense is not seriously deluded, psychopathic, brainwashed or deeply ignorant and backward? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 1

12:41pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Roy Stockdill wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.
How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye
You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?
Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on? And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community. Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell?
Well how little you understand me. I have worked in the middle east and have numerous friends of all faiths my views are based on numerous in depth conversations over four decades. Specifically christian , jewisih and moslem / muslim friends have all iterated that individually they disagree with certain of their faiths specific teachings but for the sake of their standing in society will not publically pronounce. By the way ramadan mubarak ( please excuse spelling) .
Bishop, if the people you knew put their standing in society over challenging a belief then thats their choice isnt it?

I also have many friends, both here and around the world, of different faiths and I too know some that decide to still claim a faith purely because its the easier way. But I also know some who have looked at what they believed and moved on to become non believers or challenged the beliefs from within its ranks.

I get why you are basing your opinions on what you have experienced, but what you have experienced isnt necessarily a true reflection of the entire entity. Is that simple enough to understand?
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: Indeed, Muslims are like children in their capacity to delude themselves with all the crap they believe in.[/p][/quote]How old are you then Roy? The amount of bull you come out with you havent been conceived yet. You're not even a twinkle in your fathers eye[/p][/quote]You can usually tell when someone is rattled ...they resort to personal insult. are Roy's views either too advanced to comprehend or in your view incorrect? Either way this country still believes in free speech...dont you?[/p][/quote]Right so seeing as Roy started the insults (what else is calling people deluded and what they believe crap?) I take it you agree that he is rattled then and hasnt a leg to stand on? And its funny how you claim to believe in free speech but consort with people who wish to deny that freedom and the freedom to believe what they want to the Muslim community. Thats not funny ha ha by the way, but funny is that fish I can smell?[/p][/quote]Well how little you understand me. I have worked in the middle east and have numerous friends of all faiths my views are based on numerous in depth conversations over four decades. Specifically christian , jewisih and moslem / muslim friends have all iterated that individually they disagree with certain of their faiths specific teachings but for the sake of their standing in society will not publically pronounce. By the way ramadan mubarak ( please excuse spelling) .[/p][/quote]Bishop, if the people you knew put their standing in society over challenging a belief then thats their choice isnt it? I also have many friends, both here and around the world, of different faiths and I too know some that decide to still claim a faith purely because its the easier way. But I also know some who have looked at what they believed and moved on to become non believers or challenged the beliefs from within its ranks. I get why you are basing your opinions on what you have experienced, but what you have experienced isnt necessarily a true reflection of the entire entity. Is that simple enough to understand? garston tony
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Popeonarope wrote:
garston tony wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too
Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.
Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.
Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done
So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at
Where have I said that please! Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe Another ignorant comment Bishop
Nonsense but you keep believing it if that what makes you happy!
Nonsense? What kind of answer is that!?

Firstly you havent shown where I have said independant thought and debate is discouraged and sneered at.

Secondly i'm certain you havent been to the place I worship otherwise you'll have seen yourself that we spend time debating the Bible and our Christian beliefs that we get from it.

You cant prove the former (because it isnt true) and havent the evidence for the latter but your response is 'nonsense'. Says it all, says it all....
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: LSC I agree that this community doesnt appear to condem enough those who claim to represent their faith but who actually dont and are doing awful things in its name. However that still doesnt change the fact that you have given a very poor excuse for not wanting to engage with this community, you've decided without even giving it a try that if you went onto that facebook page you wouldnt be welcome. Thats hardly fair, especially when you have its founder and other Muslims inviting you to take a look! This kind of attitude from people outside the Muslim faith towards them is possibly one of the reasons why they arent very vocal, they appear to be under attack from all corners at every given opportunity and I dont blame them for wanting to keep their heads down. Your attitude and those of others like you who ignore the peacefulness of the majority of Muslims just perpetuates the problem too[/p][/quote]Are we just supposed to ignore the extremists like the moderates do then? Or placate them, give in to their demands and see where that leads us? Appeasement doesn't work when faced with dishonesty. I fully agree the majority of all religions followers are peaceful but they are still reading the same books as those who are not peaceful. What causes the radicalization of kids who go on to become murderers, kidnappers, jihadists and suicide bombers? Is it the clothes they wear? The food they eat? The cars they drive? What could be the single reason that ties them all together? Environmental, social, financial or sexual issues? The sole cause of the extreme actions we have seen in recent years stems from following a particular religion that can be twisted into justifying actions that are reprehensible to normal human beings. This is a historic problem that we have seen so many times it can only be dwarfed by the occurrences we don't get to see. How many have been damaged, physically and / or mentally by those 0.1%; individuals with an agenda either born of faith or personal opinions? Wonder, charity, honesty, respect and love work well enough without religion; i see no reason to complicate my life by involving one in it.[/p][/quote]Succinct , poignant and thought provoking. I just hope that those attending places of organised worship appreciate exactly what they are part of.[/p][/quote]Yes, we are part of a group of believers who are overwhelmingly peaceful but who are under constant scrutiny and attack because people like you look at the 0.1% of people who have associate themselves with our beliefs but who dont act well. You say Pope's post was thought provoking then post a comments which shows you have put precisely zero thought into the matter! Well done[/p][/quote]So what you are saying then in your place of worship independent thought and hence debate is to be not only discouraged but sneered at[/p][/quote]Where have I said that please! Come to my place of worship and you'll see there is a time set aside precisely to debate what we believe Another ignorant comment Bishop[/p][/quote]Nonsense but you keep believing it if that what makes you happy![/p][/quote]Nonsense? What kind of answer is that!? Firstly you havent shown where I have said independant thought and debate is discouraged and sneered at. Secondly i'm certain you havent been to the place I worship otherwise you'll have seen yourself that we spend time debating the Bible and our Christian beliefs that we get from it. You cant prove the former (because it isnt true) and havent the evidence for the latter but your response is 'nonsense'. Says it all, says it all.... garston tony
  • Score: 0

12:47pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

Popeonarope wrote:
Religion is a breeding ground of hostility, dogma fed intolerance and perpetual insecurity about the scary unknown. It give license to its members to believe they are better than others and reinforces this with rituals designed to control their thoughts and deeds by making them feel they are indispensable to the almighty. We know much of what was once considered 'gospel' truth to be mere fabrication from the genesis story to the wandering the desert to the resurrection, yet many groups insist this is fact. But there are factors that are not so clear cut and are prevalent in the morality and ethical teachings within. For example, in the same way some followers believe that the commandments are literal and murder is forbidden; that faith can empower them to carry stretchers in a war zone without ever touching a gun. Kudos indeed. But that same commandment when it suggests that it only applies to a particular group becomes sinister as it implies that murder is fine as long as its NOT in the prohibited group. Now we know of the tribal effect that religion instills so is it such a great leap to say its can be misused? In that case, like gun control all religions should be placed under scrutiny both by the state and its own members and educated in its misuse as its various interpretations are exactly like a loaded gun ready to be used by those who have an agenda. Islam seems to be more self-righteous than most, maybe because its still relatively new but it also has many interpretations of its requirements which is why we have relatively peaceful Muslims in the UK and some vile child killing zealots in Africa. This is a problem to me as i don't know where the divide is and like a pyramid, the peaceful majority are the foundations for the fewer extremists at the top and are therefore part of the problem.
I love it, here you are at every opportunity assaulting people of faith and yet its religion that is breeding hostility and intolerance etc. Look at yourself Pope and you'll see you've just proved that those traits are saddly present in people regardless of if they have a faith or not.
[quote][p][bold]Popeonarope[/bold] wrote: Religion is a breeding ground of hostility, dogma fed intolerance and perpetual insecurity about the scary unknown. It give license to its members to believe they are better than others and reinforces this with rituals designed to control their thoughts and deeds by making them feel they are indispensable to the almighty. We know much of what was once considered 'gospel' truth to be mere fabrication from the genesis story to the wandering the desert to the resurrection, yet many groups insist this is fact. But there are factors that are not so clear cut and are prevalent in the morality and ethical teachings within. For example, in the same way some followers believe that the commandments are literal and murder is forbidden; that faith can empower them to carry stretchers in a war zone without ever touching a gun. Kudos indeed. But that same commandment when it suggests that it only applies to a particular group becomes sinister as it implies that murder is fine as long as its NOT in the prohibited group. Now we know of the tribal effect that religion instills so is it such a great leap to say its can be misused? In that case, like gun control all religions should be placed under scrutiny both by the state and its own members and educated in its misuse as its various interpretations are exactly like a loaded gun ready to be used by those who have an agenda. Islam seems to be more self-righteous than most, maybe because its still relatively new but it also has many interpretations of its requirements which is why we have relatively peaceful Muslims in the UK and some vile child killing zealots in Africa. This is a problem to me as i don't know where the divide is and like a pyramid, the peaceful majority are the foundations for the fewer extremists at the top and are therefore part of the problem.[/p][/quote]I love it, here you are at every opportunity assaulting people of faith and yet its religion that is breeding hostility and intolerance etc. Look at yourself Pope and you'll see you've just proved that those traits are saddly present in people regardless of if they have a faith or not. garston tony
  • Score: -3

1:26pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

Enoch Powell wrote:
Garston Tony, your views on Shariah Law, especially Khalid Mahmood MP's assertion that you cannot cherry pick parts of this legislation, and that it is basically all or nothing. As you can probably tell I do not want any Shariah Law in this country, and want English Law to prevail. I do not want a parallel legal system either. Please be completely honest and open and state your full beliefs as I have done.
Well Enoch, i'm not a Muslim so dont look to Sharia law. I do do a lot of travelling and volunteer work abroad including in countries that do have Sharia law however and whilst in those countries I do conduct myself on the basis that I am expected to adhere to the law of that land. It would be wrong of me to go to a foreign country and expect to be judged under UK law.

I think the same should apply to people born in or emigrating to or visiting this country. We have our own laws and legislation and system of governance and everyone in this country should adhere to it, no one should be legally judged by another standard than the rest.

If Muslims want to live under Sharia Law in this country they should do what anyone else has to do if they wish to introduce or change a law which is get it put in front of parliament and the house of lords who can debate it and choose whether it should be introduced on the basis of whether it is the right/best thing for the whole of the population and country and whether it is the will of the majority.

But there should not be a dual system, everyone here should be legally judged under the same set of rules.
[quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: Garston Tony, your views on Shariah Law, especially Khalid Mahmood MP's assertion that you cannot cherry pick parts of this legislation, and that it is basically all or nothing. As you can probably tell I do not want any Shariah Law in this country, and want English Law to prevail. I do not want a parallel legal system either. Please be completely honest and open and state your full beliefs as I have done.[/p][/quote]Well Enoch, i'm not a Muslim so dont look to Sharia law. I do do a lot of travelling and volunteer work abroad including in countries that do have Sharia law however and whilst in those countries I do conduct myself on the basis that I am expected to adhere to the law of that land. It would be wrong of me to go to a foreign country and expect to be judged under UK law. I think the same should apply to people born in or emigrating to or visiting this country. We have our own laws and legislation and system of governance and everyone in this country should adhere to it, no one should be legally judged by another standard than the rest. If Muslims want to live under Sharia Law in this country they should do what anyone else has to do if they wish to introduce or change a law which is get it put in front of parliament and the house of lords who can debate it and choose whether it should be introduced on the basis of whether it is the right/best thing for the whole of the population and country and whether it is the will of the majority. But there should not be a dual system, everyone here should be legally judged under the same set of rules. garston tony
  • Score: 1

1:27pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice.

As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system.

Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system) garston tony
  • Score: 1

1:45pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise.&lt; Haven't you noticed that the most radicalised, fundamental, fanatical Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attack on America and other atrocities all believed that in becoming suicide killers they were going to go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins because they had been told so by their evil controllers? Seriously, how can you possibly believe that anyone who can fall for such nonsense is not seriously deluded, psychopathic, brainwashed or deeply ignorant and backward?
Roy whilst you, or i, may not believe something personally if there is a lack of evidence to prove otherwise who are you to judge someone elses beliefs with such hate filled comments?

Its all relative anyway isnt it?

You know i've visited many countries that you would call backwards, and whilst they may not have all the technology and infrastructure we do i've found them on the whole to be very peaceful and family and community centric and willing to extend the hand of friendship to strangers.

I then come back to the UK and read stories about kids killing each other because they were looked at the 'wrong way', or for a pair of trainers, or because of skin colour. Where people avoid their neighbours, and turn their backs when they see someone in need. We are told we have to look a certain way or we are not worthy and people go to immense lengths to look like a model or actress they've seen in a magazine (whose picture has probably been air brushed anyway), spending fortunes on 'things', surgery etc to get something that cant be attained leading to all sorts of psychological problems. And our goals in life are to buy the latest fad and we ignore the fact that we are increasingly destroying our planet to obtain things we dont actually need. And then there are people like you who are too dumb or lazy or gullible to think for themselves or are stuck in their ways and dont want to look for the truth believing all sorts of crud about those around them.

But just because we have hi tech gadgets (that actually are often detrimental to us as individuals and society as a whole), and cars, and brick houses with running water and electricity people like you think we're better off, or just better, in our polluted country than some 'poor' villager somewhere abroad.

Roy, you dont have to look further than your nose to see that all the traits you are happy to aim at others exist in our own country in spades. How are we better exactly please?
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: >Whilst I dont believe that when someone dies they are met and waited on by vestal virgins people have every right to believe that should they wish and you are showing your arrogance again by saying otherwise.< Haven't you noticed that the most radicalised, fundamental, fanatical Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attack on America and other atrocities all believed that in becoming suicide killers they were going to go to Paradise and be waited on by vestal virgins because they had been told so by their evil controllers? Seriously, how can you possibly believe that anyone who can fall for such nonsense is not seriously deluded, psychopathic, brainwashed or deeply ignorant and backward?[/p][/quote]Roy whilst you, or i, may not believe something personally if there is a lack of evidence to prove otherwise who are you to judge someone elses beliefs with such hate filled comments? Its all relative anyway isnt it? You know i've visited many countries that you would call backwards, and whilst they may not have all the technology and infrastructure we do i've found them on the whole to be very peaceful and family and community centric and willing to extend the hand of friendship to strangers. I then come back to the UK and read stories about kids killing each other because they were looked at the 'wrong way', or for a pair of trainers, or because of skin colour. Where people avoid their neighbours, and turn their backs when they see someone in need. We are told we have to look a certain way or we are not worthy and people go to immense lengths to look like a model or actress they've seen in a magazine (whose picture has probably been air brushed anyway), spending fortunes on 'things', surgery etc to get something that cant be attained leading to all sorts of psychological problems. And our goals in life are to buy the latest fad and we ignore the fact that we are increasingly destroying our planet to obtain things we dont actually need. And then there are people like you who are too dumb or lazy or gullible to think for themselves or are stuck in their ways and dont want to look for the truth believing all sorts of crud about those around them. But just because we have hi tech gadgets (that actually are often detrimental to us as individuals and society as a whole), and cars, and brick houses with running water and electricity people like you think we're better off, or just better, in our polluted country than some 'poor' villager somewhere abroad. Roy, you dont have to look further than your nose to see that all the traits you are happy to aim at others exist in our own country in spades. How are we better exactly please? garston tony
  • Score: 0

2:02pm Thu 29 May 14

garston tony says...

On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that.

I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone.

No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it
On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that. I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone. No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it garston tony
  • Score: 0

7:02pm Thu 29 May 14

workingforabetterworld says...

Need an accountant anyone? :)
Need an accountant anyone? :) workingforabetterworld
  • Score: 0

8:05pm Thu 29 May 14

Enoch Powell says...

garston tony wrote:
Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice.

As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system.

Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means.
To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively. Enoch Powell
  • Score: 1

9:55pm Thu 29 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice.

As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system.

Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means.
To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ?

By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed?

Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....?

Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?
[quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 0

9:55pm Thu 29 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote:
Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice.

As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system.

Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means.
To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ?

By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed?

Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....?

Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?
[quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 0

4:40am Fri 30 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that.

I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone.

No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it
You make excellent points it is a shame the chilcott report is being censored
But only to be expected.

Otherwise two of the three reasons for the illegal invasion of iraq would become clear.

Firstly saddam hussein had decided he wanted payment for iraqs oil in
euros and not the us dollar. That would have. Put an end to the cosy
Relationship between other major oil producers such as saidi arabia and the
mlitary / industrial complex of the socalled civillised west primarily the usa.

Secondly both bush and blair are chriatian zealots , the former wanted to do
Something daddy bush failed to do ....topple saddam ! Blair was ,shall we say , encouraged to follow along like a puppy eager to please by , ultimately
The " holy see " and all the vatican stands for.......

Remember the crusades ? Well both christian factions , egged on by another middle eastern nuclear power....had unfinished business and old scores to settle.

Now , who says religion and my god is better than your god is beneficial to this planet ?

The third reason .......well that has yet to be revealed but explains why the yanks are wetting themselves over their former agent snowden.....and his
" unpatriotic " actions.

Wait and see.....
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that. I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone. No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it[/p][/quote]You make excellent points it is a shame the chilcott report is being censored But only to be expected. Otherwise two of the three reasons for the illegal invasion of iraq would become clear. Firstly saddam hussein had decided he wanted payment for iraqs oil in euros and not the us dollar. That would have. Put an end to the cosy Relationship between other major oil producers such as saidi arabia and the mlitary / industrial complex of the socalled civillised west primarily the usa. Secondly both bush and blair are chriatian zealots , the former wanted to do Something daddy bush failed to do ....topple saddam ! Blair was ,shall we say , encouraged to follow along like a puppy eager to please by , ultimately The " holy see " and all the vatican stands for....... Remember the crusades ? Well both christian factions , egged on by another middle eastern nuclear power....had unfinished business and old scores to settle. Now , who says religion and my god is better than your god is beneficial to this planet ? The third reason .......well that has yet to be revealed but explains why the yanks are wetting themselves over their former agent snowden.....and his " unpatriotic " actions. Wait and see..... bishopofwatford
  • Score: -1

7:44am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
You seem to have a problem comprehending what you read as I wasnt dressing Sharia law up as a nondescript voluntary code.

I was saying it shouldnt legally be run in this country along side/as an alternative to our existing laws and that if people want to make Sharia law legal in the UK they need to do what anyone else needs to do if they want to introduce a law and that is run it past parliament for them to decide wether it should incoperated into UK law.

The 'voluntary' bit was if people want to implement Sharia law in their own lives in this country then as long as it doesnt contravene any UK laws go for it but on the basis that it is not legally enforceable, no one can be forced to become subject to it and any consequences to 'breaking' it should be voluntary and self managed.
[quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]You seem to have a problem comprehending what you read as I wasnt dressing Sharia law up as a nondescript voluntary code. I was saying it shouldnt legally be run in this country along side/as an alternative to our existing laws and that if people want to make Sharia law legal in the UK they need to do what anyone else needs to do if they want to introduce a law and that is run it past parliament for them to decide wether it should incoperated into UK law. The 'voluntary' bit was if people want to implement Sharia law in their own lives in this country then as long as it doesnt contravene any UK laws go for it but on the basis that it is not legally enforceable, no one can be forced to become subject to it and any consequences to 'breaking' it should be voluntary and self managed. garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:05am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?
Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others.

As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?[/p][/quote]Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others. As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:09am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote: On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that. I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone. No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it
You make excellent points it is a shame the chilcott report is being censored But only to be expected. Otherwise two of the three reasons for the illegal invasion of iraq would become clear. Firstly saddam hussein had decided he wanted payment for iraqs oil in euros and not the us dollar. That would have. Put an end to the cosy Relationship between other major oil producers such as saidi arabia and the mlitary / industrial complex of the socalled civillised west primarily the usa. Secondly both bush and blair are chriatian zealots , the former wanted to do Something daddy bush failed to do ....topple saddam ! Blair was ,shall we say , encouraged to follow along like a puppy eager to please by , ultimately The &quot; holy see " and all the vatican stands for....... Remember the crusades ? Well both christian factions , egged on by another middle eastern nuclear power....had unfinished business and old scores to settle. Now , who says religion and my god is better than your god is beneficial to this planet ? The third reason .......well that has yet to be revealed but explains why the yanks are wetting themselves over their former agent snowden.....and his " unpatriotic " actions. Wait and see.....
The so called 'war on terror' may have only been an excuse for invading Iraq but seriously this is the first time i've ever heard anyone claim it was a religious war! I've heard the unfinished business angle and gaining control of oil but a christian crusade! Whatever Bishop, whatever
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: On the subject of people willing to committ attrocities in the belief that they are going to be met be virgins in the after life, you dont seem to wonder why people would be willing to do that. I'm sure you think it has nothing to do with centuries of Western countried oppressing most of these 'backward' countries as you call them, or in recent decades fighting a 'war' for democracy against the Soviet union by toppling democratically elected governments who didnt agree with us and often installing or supporting leaders who were cruel and corrupt. Or in the past fifteen years or so absolutely nothing to do with the US and her allies blowing up wedding parties or some other poor innocent villagers by remote control drone. No, why would anyone have a grudge against the elightened west? Its a mystery isnt it[/p][/quote]You make excellent points it is a shame the chilcott report is being censored But only to be expected. Otherwise two of the three reasons for the illegal invasion of iraq would become clear. Firstly saddam hussein had decided he wanted payment for iraqs oil in euros and not the us dollar. That would have. Put an end to the cosy Relationship between other major oil producers such as saidi arabia and the mlitary / industrial complex of the socalled civillised west primarily the usa. Secondly both bush and blair are chriatian zealots , the former wanted to do Something daddy bush failed to do ....topple saddam ! Blair was ,shall we say , encouraged to follow along like a puppy eager to please by , ultimately The " holy see " and all the vatican stands for....... Remember the crusades ? Well both christian factions , egged on by another middle eastern nuclear power....had unfinished business and old scores to settle. Now , who says religion and my god is better than your god is beneficial to this planet ? The third reason .......well that has yet to be revealed but explains why the yanks are wetting themselves over their former agent snowden.....and his " unpatriotic " actions. Wait and see.....[/p][/quote]The so called 'war on terror' may have only been an excuse for invading Iraq but seriously this is the first time i've ever heard anyone claim it was a religious war! I've heard the unfinished business angle and gaining control of oil but a christian crusade! Whatever Bishop, whatever garston tony
  • Score: 0

8:45am Fri 30 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?
Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others.

As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits
Indeed .

Question what medical qualifications are held by those in this country performing circumcisions ?
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?[/p][/quote]Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others. As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits[/p][/quote]Indeed . Question what medical qualifications are held by those in this country performing circumcisions ? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

8:49am Fri 30 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age.

Child abuse / gbh or what ?
That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age. Child abuse / gbh or what ? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

9:39am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
Enoch Powell wrote:
garston tony wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)
As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.
Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?
Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others. As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits
Indeed . Question what medical qualifications are held by those in this country performing circumcisions ?
How the eck am I supposed to know?!
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Enoch Powell[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Having said the above if people want to voluntarily follow a set of rules in addition to the law of the land then as long as it does not contravene the law of the land then that is their free choice. As a Christian I follow certainly rules I believe God has asked me to follow that arent the law of the land, but should I not keep these rules then the matter is between me and God not me and the UK justice system. Ditto if people want to voluntarily follow Sharia laws (that arent illegal to follow under UK law) then they can certainly do that as far as im concerned. If having voluntarily chosen to follow the legal Sharia laws they break them it should also be down to the individual to decide wether to accept the 'punishment' others may wish to impose on them for doing so. No one should be able to force a 'punishment' on someone else for breaking a rule that isnt UK law (and UK law should only be enforced by the justice system)[/p][/quote]As Khalid Mahmood MP said, you can't cherry pick Shariah Law. It's either all or nothing, and we know what that means. To dress the Shariah up as some kind of non descript voluntary code of conduct is pure naively.[/p][/quote]Well said and whilst we are on the subject of barbarism.....why is female genital mutilation frowned at in the west yet. Virtually encouraged in certain parts of the moslem world ? By the same logic why is male circumcision practised by both moslem and jewiish faiths allowed? Surely this is nothing short of child abuse and GBH ....? Or am i missing something in the enlightened moslem and jewish world ?[/p][/quote]Female circumcision is a cultural not religious issue and its practise pre dates Islam (it isnt mentioned in the Koran and it is a practise carried out by non Muslim cultural groups too). Whilst it may be done in some Muslim countries it is discouraged in others. As to male circumcision there are some health benefits to it and it is only recently due to medical advances that some of these benefits of can be gained by other means. And again it is not the preserve of Muslims or Jews but is practised in other cultures due to its historical health benefits[/p][/quote]Indeed . Question what medical qualifications are held by those in this country performing circumcisions ?[/p][/quote]How the eck am I supposed to know?! garston tony
  • Score: 0

9:42am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

bishopofwatford wrote:
That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age. Child abuse / gbh or what ?
Well male circumcision is not illegal so UK law doesnt deem it to be either
[quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age. Child abuse / gbh or what ?[/p][/quote]Well male circumcision is not illegal so UK law doesnt deem it to be either garston tony
  • Score: -1

9:50am Fri 30 May 14

garston tony says...

Personally I have more of an issue with chavy parents getting their toddlers ears and noses pierced, or over feeding them so that they can hardly move from a young age, or thinking that sitting them in front of a tv all day and night fulfills their parenting responsibilities, or allowing them to roam ferral around the streets.

That and many more things done by parents from all backgrounds in this country are far more abusive and detrimental to children than a procedure that is legal. Stil think we're so advance Roy do you?
Personally I have more of an issue with chavy parents getting their toddlers ears and noses pierced, or over feeding them so that they can hardly move from a young age, or thinking that sitting them in front of a tv all day and night fulfills their parenting responsibilities, or allowing them to roam ferral around the streets. That and many more things done by parents from all backgrounds in this country are far more abusive and detrimental to children than a procedure that is legal. Stil think we're so advance Roy do you? garston tony
  • Score: 0

10:28am Fri 30 May 14

bishopofwatford says...

garston tony wrote:
bishopofwatford wrote:
That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age. Child abuse / gbh or what ?
Well male circumcision is not illegal so UK law doesnt deem it to be either
For medical reasons yes.

How is it ok for non medically qualified people to mutilate boys for relgious reasons?
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bishopofwatford[/bold] wrote: That should read non medical circumcisions.....of i realise that in some case there is a medical need but not on every boy born into a certain faith before he reaches a certain age. Child abuse / gbh or what ?[/p][/quote]Well male circumcision is not illegal so UK law doesnt deem it to be either[/p][/quote]For medical reasons yes. How is it ok for non medically qualified people to mutilate boys for relgious reasons? bishopofwatford
  • Score: 1

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