Hertfordshire police turn the tablets on criminals with wireless technology

Watford Observer: Hertfordshire police turn the tablets on criminals with wireless technology Hertfordshire police turn the tablets on criminals with wireless technology

Tablets in Hertfordshire are more commonly used to catch-up on missed TV or to tweet about celebrity gossip, but the county’s police are using the technology to spend more time on the road and track criminals.

The days of officers darting between crime scenes and the station to file reports could be a thing of the past as the force’s men and women are equipped with new Panasonic FZ-G1 "Toughpads".

These devices have been rolled out into 93 of the county’s police cars - at £5,000 a pop.

The aim is to use this ruggedised, waterproof hardware to help officers tackle crime quicker and more effectively and the chief inspector spearheading the campaign is making no excuses for the cost.

CI Damien Kennedy, who leads to mobile data team, said: "It’s not a cheap option and maybe other police forces will turn around and have a heart attack at the cost of that because it isn’t cheap, but that breaks down to the device, router, aerial, keyboard, screen, sim cards and the revenue costs so I don’t think we are ashamed of how much it costs and I think we are quite proud that we are investing in something for Hertfordshire and the people that we serve."

He said that, as long as the force has got the budget and manpower, then the money should be put towards "something good", such as these tablets.

He added: "I am really proud. It has been really well received and all the hard work we have put into it is kind of paying off now, so I am really pleased."

CI Kennedy said Hertfordshire Constabulary is the first force in the country to take the Windows 8 tablet and dock it in the police car. As a result officers will be able to work remotely.

Watford Observer:

He added: "We had to be thinking what this officer would need in a field at 2am. We wanted to put in their hands something they could use which would help them manage that incident and respond to that incident."

Every police car in the county is now a wifi hotspot and the device is still connected to the internet up to 200ft away from the vehicle.

This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force.

The software has gone through a few tweaks over the past year. Originally launched in October, the mobile data team found there were problems connecting to the internet.

As a result, a new aerial called the "jellyfish" has been installed on police cars, allowing even greater connectivity.

CI Kennedy said he is looking at rolling out this "cutting edge" technology into the force’s other units, including its helicopters, dog vans, and traffic teams.

He added: "We want to take it one step further and we want to now put the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) software that some police cars have and load it onto the tablet so we’re changing the way we track organised criminals and changing the way we respond to critical incidences."

Comments (37)

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2:41pm Thu 5 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price.

If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.
Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -10

3:28pm Thu 5 Jun 14

davidhornet says...

At last we have something to agree on Phil. Apalling waste of public money. They can use them to tweet about the wonderful job they are doing. £465,000. How many police would that pay for. Almost enough money to get a new PCC.
At last we have something to agree on Phil. Apalling waste of public money. They can use them to tweet about the wonderful job they are doing. £465,000. How many police would that pay for. Almost enough money to get a new PCC. davidhornet
  • Score: -13

6:22pm Thu 5 Jun 14

davidhornet says...

OK so my last post has got -5 so far. Interesting. On reflection I think that this is an excellent idea and offers real value for money. Initiatives like this should be applauded and the PCC is to be commended for his inspirational leadership.
OK so my last post has got -5 so far. Interesting. On reflection I think that this is an excellent idea and offers real value for money. Initiatives like this should be applauded and the PCC is to be commended for his inspirational leadership. davidhornet
  • Score: -1

7:17pm Thu 5 Jun 14

davidhornet says...

So the tide has turned. Post a favourable comment about the police and the PCC and the thumbs turn up. You would think that the office of the PCC would have shut down by now, they must be dedicated to their role as PR spinners to be working this late.......
So the tide has turned. Post a favourable comment about the police and the PCC and the thumbs turn up. You would think that the office of the PCC would have shut down by now, they must be dedicated to their role as PR spinners to be working this late....... davidhornet
  • Score: 2

8:03pm Thu 5 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price.

If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.
You would also know about where to look on the Watford Council website for payments to Councillors. Oh, sorry I forgot.. You didn't
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.[/p][/quote]You would also know about where to look on the Watford Council website for payments to Councillors. Oh, sorry I forgot.. You didn't Nascot
  • Score: 2

8:21am Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.
One of the key words in the article is 'toughpad', another is 'rugged'. An ipad in my experience isnt the most hardwearing of technology so probably not the best bit of kit for the police forces needs.

The article also points out that the cost is for the whole package not just the tablet itself, so even if the ipad was an option there would be other costs on top.

And just because a product is a market leader doesnt make it the best, Apple whilst they make good products are succesful due to the perceived idea that they have the best products. I can vouch that other manufacturers make superior products to Apple's.

Surely we want our police force to have kit that is fit for purpose not just the cheapest thing out there which isnt going to do the job (I can well imagine your comments if they had bought ipads and found them not to be of any use about the police wasting money on things that dont work!). Thankfully you are not in charge of this IT as the police force would have spent a lot of money on something that isnt useful
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.[/p][/quote]One of the key words in the article is 'toughpad', another is 'rugged'. An ipad in my experience isnt the most hardwearing of technology so probably not the best bit of kit for the police forces needs. The article also points out that the cost is for the whole package not just the tablet itself, so even if the ipad was an option there would be other costs on top. And just because a product is a market leader doesnt make it the best, Apple whilst they make good products are succesful due to the perceived idea that they have the best products. I can vouch that other manufacturers make superior products to Apple's. Surely we want our police force to have kit that is fit for purpose not just the cheapest thing out there which isnt going to do the job (I can well imagine your comments if they had bought ipads and found them not to be of any use about the police wasting money on things that dont work!). Thankfully you are not in charge of this IT as the police force would have spent a lot of money on something that isnt useful garston tony
  • Score: 8

8:30am Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time
Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time garston tony
  • Score: 5

8:53am Fri 6 Jun 14

WatfordBandB says...

It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose.

End of, but thanks for your comments.
It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose. End of, but thanks for your comments. WatfordBandB
  • Score: 4

9:10am Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

garston tony wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote: Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.
One of the key words in the article is 'toughpad', another is 'rugged'. An ipad in my experience isnt the most hardwearing of technology so probably not the best bit of kit for the police forces needs. The article also points out that the cost is for the whole package not just the tablet itself, so even if the ipad was an option there would be other costs on top. And just because a product is a market leader doesnt make it the best, Apple whilst they make good products are succesful due to the perceived idea that they have the best products. I can vouch that other manufacturers make superior products to Apple's. Surely we want our police force to have kit that is fit for purpose not just the cheapest thing out there which isnt going to do the job (I can well imagine your comments if they had bought ipads and found them not to be of any use about the police wasting money on things that dont work!). Thankfully you are not in charge of this IT as the police force would have spent a lot of money on something that isnt useful
Tony,

You can buy 10 IPADss for the cost of one of these toughpads. Bearing in mind the lifespan of any piece of IT kit then the IPAD has to be a contender even if occasionally one gets broken and needs fixing or replacing. They can get protective covers.

As for whether Apple products are better or worse than Windows products, that argument will never end. I believe Apple computers are superior to Windows because they are based on UNIX, the most reliable operating system in the world. The same attention to details is fed into their other products and the IPAD is the leader in the field for functionality, ease of use and reliability.

An Ipad with a built-in cell connection will work almost anywhere and not need an aerial in the car. Needless to say it will not be restricted to a 200 yards range of the patrol car and can be used with any car, not just fitted-out patrol cars.

The only thing the IPAD lacks compared to the one purchased is the ruggedisation. Whilst that's beneficial, it's not the be-all and end-all of these sort of devices. It also normally adds considerable weight.

In conclusion, an IPAD would have done the job if the police had embraced the technology, for a fraction of the cost, even allowing for replacements of damaged units. If anything it would have given added flexibility in not being tied to the patrol car.

Apple is not the cheapest kit out there, but it does offer good price/performance. It is also very reliable.

If I had been in charge of this project the Police would have had a system that would have cost a fraction of the price to introduce and be a lot more flexible.

A win-win all round.

I don't know how you could say an IPAD would be any less useful that any other tablet.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Great idea, but £5000 a go = ridiculous price when you can pick up an IPAD, the market leader, for a fraction of the price. If I were the person in charge of this I.T., I WOULD be making an apology for bringing it in at that price.[/p][/quote]One of the key words in the article is 'toughpad', another is 'rugged'. An ipad in my experience isnt the most hardwearing of technology so probably not the best bit of kit for the police forces needs. The article also points out that the cost is for the whole package not just the tablet itself, so even if the ipad was an option there would be other costs on top. And just because a product is a market leader doesnt make it the best, Apple whilst they make good products are succesful due to the perceived idea that they have the best products. I can vouch that other manufacturers make superior products to Apple's. Surely we want our police force to have kit that is fit for purpose not just the cheapest thing out there which isnt going to do the job (I can well imagine your comments if they had bought ipads and found them not to be of any use about the police wasting money on things that dont work!). Thankfully you are not in charge of this IT as the police force would have spent a lot of money on something that isnt useful[/p][/quote]Tony, You can buy 10 IPADss for the cost of one of these toughpads. Bearing in mind the lifespan of any piece of IT kit then the IPAD has to be a contender even if occasionally one gets broken and needs fixing or replacing. They can get protective covers. As for whether Apple products are better or worse than Windows products, that argument will never end. I believe Apple computers are superior to Windows because they are based on UNIX, the most reliable operating system in the world. The same attention to details is fed into their other products and the IPAD is the leader in the field for functionality, ease of use and reliability. An Ipad with a built-in cell connection will work almost anywhere and not need an aerial in the car. Needless to say it will not be restricted to a 200 yards range of the patrol car and can be used with any car, not just fitted-out patrol cars. The only thing the IPAD lacks compared to the one purchased is the ruggedisation. Whilst that's beneficial, it's not the be-all and end-all of these sort of devices. It also normally adds considerable weight. In conclusion, an IPAD would have done the job if the police had embraced the technology, for a fraction of the cost, even allowing for replacements of damaged units. If anything it would have given added flexibility in not being tied to the patrol car. Apple is not the cheapest kit out there, but it does offer good price/performance. It is also very reliable. If I had been in charge of this project the Police would have had a system that would have cost a fraction of the price to introduce and be a lot more flexible. A win-win all round. I don't know how you could say an IPAD would be any less useful that any other tablet. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -3

9:13am Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

garston tony wrote:
Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time
Two issues here Tony.

1. Is the project justified in the first place?

2. Is the cost reasonable?


On those two issues, I would say that I agree with you, I hope the project allows the police to be more efficient and pays for itself. On the second issue, I do believe that if they had thought outside the box a little they could have brought all the benefits to bear for a fraction of the cost.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time[/p][/quote]Two issues here Tony. 1. Is the project justified in the first place? 2. Is the cost reasonable? On those two issues, I would say that I agree with you, I hope the project allows the police to be more efficient and pays for itself. On the second issue, I do believe that if they had thought outside the box a little they could have brought all the benefits to bear for a fraction of the cost. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -2

9:19am Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

WatfordBandB wrote:
It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose. End of, but thanks for your comments.
What makes you say that they must be Windows based?

Moist systems are browser based and therefore Windows has little bearing on functionality.

The police are not going to be carring these into battle, they will be using them as a tool for their work. Military standard ruggedisation may be overkill and therefore add unwarranted expense and cost to the project.

This project, for 93 cars, has cost just shy of half a million pounds. What I am saying is that the police could have done the same thing for a tenth of the cost, just £50,000.
[quote][p][bold]WatfordBandB[/bold] wrote: It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose. End of, but thanks for your comments.[/p][/quote]What makes you say that they must be Windows based? Moist systems are browser based and therefore Windows has little bearing on functionality. The police are not going to be carring these into battle, they will be using them as a tool for their work. Military standard ruggedisation may be overkill and therefore add unwarranted expense and cost to the project. This project, for 93 cars, has cost just shy of half a million pounds. What I am saying is that the police could have done the same thing for a tenth of the cost, just £50,000. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -2

10:00am Fri 6 Jun 14

LSC says...

"This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force."

I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile?
"This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force." I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile? LSC
  • Score: -1

10:47am Fri 6 Jun 14

cameluk says...

"We had to be thinking what this officer would need in a field at 2am"

Expect most of them would like another officer on the beat
"We had to be thinking what this officer would need in a field at 2am" Expect most of them would like another officer on the beat cameluk
  • Score: 1

11:11am Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

Again Phil I can just imagine your post if it was revealed that the Police force had spent x amount replacing ipads after a relatively short time because they werent tough enough for the job! Ipads are just too fragile, they break easily in safe home environments when the only use they get is on the sofa by someone going on facebook. Mmany companies now give tablets to their employees to use when out and about. I've yet to see any firm use ipads which say a lot, in fact the only time i've seen an ipad used by a business in a non office environment was for a firm where style meant more than substance.

And I dont know if you've been to the USA? I have and on a couple of occassions had the assistance of the local PD, their cars are fitted with tablet type kit. It appears to be fixed in the car yet looks rugged enough that it could withstand a rocket blast! Ipads cant survive in a benign fluffly home environment, they are not designed for heavy out and about usage that I can imagine the police will be doing.

You have also missed the point again that the 5k includes other accessories and the cost of installing them on vehicles, customised software as well as running costs. I've done a quick google search and these panasonics can be bought for less than three times the cost of an ipad (who knows the force could have gotten a discount too for buying in bulk) so even if ipads had been chosen the initial savings would have been in the hundreds of pounds and that would have evaporated as soon as you needed to start replacing when they regularly broke!

The debate over Apple's v other products can rage on endlessly, however I own and Ipad but having bought another make of tablet I will never ever go back to the apple product. The alternative make is far superior in functionality and ease of use and has never let me down on reliability. Im afraid you appear to be one of those people infatuated by apple for no sensible reason.
Again Phil I can just imagine your post if it was revealed that the Police force had spent x amount replacing ipads after a relatively short time because they werent tough enough for the job! Ipads are just too fragile, they break easily in safe home environments when the only use they get is on the sofa by someone going on facebook. Mmany companies now give tablets to their employees to use when out and about. I've yet to see any firm use ipads which say a lot, in fact the only time i've seen an ipad used by a business in a non office environment was for a firm where style meant more than substance. And I dont know if you've been to the USA? I have and on a couple of occassions had the assistance of the local PD, their cars are fitted with tablet type kit. It appears to be fixed in the car yet looks rugged enough that it could withstand a rocket blast! Ipads cant survive in a benign fluffly home environment, they are not designed for heavy out and about usage that I can imagine the police will be doing. You have also missed the point again that the 5k includes other accessories and the cost of installing them on vehicles, customised software as well as running costs. I've done a quick google search and these panasonics can be bought for less than three times the cost of an ipad (who knows the force could have gotten a discount too for buying in bulk) so even if ipads had been chosen the initial savings would have been in the hundreds of pounds and that would have evaporated as soon as you needed to start replacing when they regularly broke! The debate over Apple's v other products can rage on endlessly, however I own and Ipad but having bought another make of tablet I will never ever go back to the apple product. The alternative make is far superior in functionality and ease of use and has never let me down on reliability. Im afraid you appear to be one of those people infatuated by apple for no sensible reason. garston tony
  • Score: 4

11:15am Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

LSC wrote:
"This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force." I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile?
LSC, whilst coppers can physically move about they cant take their office and files with them can they?

Well with this tablet they now can to a certain extent, so rather than having to spend time going back to the station to sit at a computer they have access to a lot of that information with them where ever they go. Hence completely mobile as they have their 'office' with them too now
[quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: "This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force." I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile?[/p][/quote]LSC, whilst coppers can physically move about they cant take their office and files with them can they? Well with this tablet they now can to a certain extent, so rather than having to spend time going back to the station to sit at a computer they have access to a lot of that information with them where ever they go. Hence completely mobile as they have their 'office' with them too now garston tony
  • Score: 3

11:30am Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
garston tony wrote: Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time
Two issues here Tony. 1. Is the project justified in the first place? 2. Is the cost reasonable? On those two issues, I would say that I agree with you, I hope the project allows the police to be more efficient and pays for itself. On the second issue, I do believe that if they had thought outside the box a little they could have brought all the benefits to bear for a fraction of the cost.
Phil, they have thought outside the box and not bought what every Apple lover would expect, it seems demand, they buy!

I can well imagine the cost being saved back in quite a short time. This is a total guess but lets say for each of those 93 cars once every day a copper used to have to drive back to the station to use a computer to do something that these tablets now allow them to do and lets say that it was a 30 minute drive to the station plus getting to a desk blah blah and it cost in wages £6 per copper involved for that time.

Thats a saving of £558 per day based on just one copper being in the cars, double that if there are two. Thats £203670 for all 93 cars accross the year or again double if two officers involved. That doesnt take into account petrol and wear and tear on the vehicle either and is this sort of wasted time only going to happen once a day?

Plus that 30 minutes in the car is wasted time, instead of returning the station the officers can now spend that time responding to the next call out. What value can you place on that?

This system is going to allow coppers to respond better to incidents they are attending and get to those incidents quicker, its going to allow them to be out and about more and having to spend less time at a desk and its going to not only pay for itself but save the force money in the long run.

Whats not to like about it?!
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: Also just looking at the cost of this kit is so short sighted, as the article points out it will allow the police to be more efficient and help tackle crime. Its possibly harder to put a monetary value on the latter point but you can certainly quantify the former and the tablets etc will probably pay for themselves in the long run by freeing up police time[/p][/quote]Two issues here Tony. 1. Is the project justified in the first place? 2. Is the cost reasonable? On those two issues, I would say that I agree with you, I hope the project allows the police to be more efficient and pays for itself. On the second issue, I do believe that if they had thought outside the box a little they could have brought all the benefits to bear for a fraction of the cost.[/p][/quote]Phil, they have thought outside the box and not bought what every Apple lover would expect, it seems demand, they buy! I can well imagine the cost being saved back in quite a short time. This is a total guess but lets say for each of those 93 cars once every day a copper used to have to drive back to the station to use a computer to do something that these tablets now allow them to do and lets say that it was a 30 minute drive to the station plus getting to a desk blah blah and it cost in wages £6 per copper involved for that time. Thats a saving of £558 per day based on just one copper being in the cars, double that if there are two. Thats £203670 for all 93 cars accross the year or again double if two officers involved. That doesnt take into account petrol and wear and tear on the vehicle either and is this sort of wasted time only going to happen once a day? Plus that 30 minutes in the car is wasted time, instead of returning the station the officers can now spend that time responding to the next call out. What value can you place on that? This system is going to allow coppers to respond better to incidents they are attending and get to those incidents quicker, its going to allow them to be out and about more and having to spend less time at a desk and its going to not only pay for itself but save the force money in the long run. Whats not to like about it?! garston tony
  • Score: 2

11:40am Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Great imagination Tony.

There's not enough facts to go on.

I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure.

If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement.

I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices.

Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver.

There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution.
Great imagination Tony. There's not enough facts to go on. I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure. If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement. I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices. Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver. There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

12:45pm Fri 6 Jun 14

garston tony says...

Just because something is cheaper doesnt make it right for the job. Sometimes spending a bit more can save you money long term, that happens all the time in my line of work. We advise a client on a product, those that insist on a cheaper option often end up having to replace it or finding it not fit for.

Not saying that you have to spend more to get better quality but i'm pretty sure that the police know far better than we do the requirements of the tablets they chose and did look at a few before deciding on the panasonic as the one that best fulfilled their needs
Just because something is cheaper doesnt make it right for the job. Sometimes spending a bit more can save you money long term, that happens all the time in my line of work. We advise a client on a product, those that insist on a cheaper option often end up having to replace it or finding it not fit for. Not saying that you have to spend more to get better quality but i'm pretty sure that the police know far better than we do the requirements of the tablets they chose and did look at a few before deciding on the panasonic as the one that best fulfilled their needs garston tony
  • Score: 4

1:02pm Fri 6 Jun 14

LSC says...

garston tony wrote:
LSC wrote:
"This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force." I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile?
LSC, whilst coppers can physically move about they cant take their office and files with them can they?

Well with this tablet they now can to a certain extent, so rather than having to spend time going back to the station to sit at a computer they have access to a lot of that information with them where ever they go. Hence completely mobile as they have their 'office' with them too now
While I take your point, I don't see a massive gain over what they had before. They can access information by radio and telephone, and anything they write down 'in the field' is inadmissible as evidence until it has been printed and signed anyway. So yes, they can stand in a field typing rather than sit in an office typing, but they still have to return to the office to finish the job.
I do see some convenience advantages, but the cost seems high for them.
[quote][p][bold]garston tony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LSC[/bold] wrote: "This will allow Hertfordshire’s police to become a completely mobile police force." I find this sentence strange. They had legs, cars, dogs, helicopters, even horses before. But only NOW they are mobile?[/p][/quote]LSC, whilst coppers can physically move about they cant take their office and files with them can they? Well with this tablet they now can to a certain extent, so rather than having to spend time going back to the station to sit at a computer they have access to a lot of that information with them where ever they go. Hence completely mobile as they have their 'office' with them too now[/p][/quote]While I take your point, I don't see a massive gain over what they had before. They can access information by radio and telephone, and anything they write down 'in the field' is inadmissible as evidence until it has been printed and signed anyway. So yes, they can stand in a field typing rather than sit in an office typing, but they still have to return to the office to finish the job. I do see some convenience advantages, but the cost seems high for them. LSC
  • Score: 0

1:42pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Great imagination Tony.

There's not enough facts to go on.

I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure.

If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement.

I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices.

Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver.

There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution.
'If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices'

If I really is your favourite phrase..

If I were elected, if I were mayor ... etc

What makes you think they didn't.

Seeing as you are an IT expert, I suggets that you check out the specification;
http://business.pana
sonic.co.uk/computer
-product/toughpad/fz
-g1

Then tell us if an IPad (or anything else) really comes anywhere close to this bearing in mind the reality of the harsh Police environment that they will be used in.

IPads are only really designed to be balanced on your knee on the train.
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Great imagination Tony. There's not enough facts to go on. I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure. If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement. I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices. Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver. There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution.[/p][/quote]'If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices' If I really is your favourite phrase.. If I were elected, if I were mayor ... etc What makes you think they didn't. Seeing as you are an IT expert, I suggets that you check out the specification; http://business.pana sonic.co.uk/computer -product/toughpad/fz -g1 Then tell us if an IPad (or anything else) really comes anywhere close to this bearing in mind the reality of the harsh Police environment that they will be used in. IPads are only really designed to be balanced on your knee on the train. Nascot
  • Score: 2

2:01pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Andrew Turpie says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
WatfordBandB wrote:
It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose. End of, but thanks for your comments.
What makes you say that they must be Windows based?

Moist systems are browser based and therefore Windows has little bearing on functionality.

The police are not going to be carring these into battle, they will be using them as a tool for their work. Military standard ruggedisation may be overkill and therefore add unwarranted expense and cost to the project.

This project, for 93 cars, has cost just shy of half a million pounds. What I am saying is that the police could have done the same thing for a tenth of the cost, just £50,000.
I'm going to throw my two penneth in, as these are mobile devices we could discount being bound to Active/Open directory and go for the Citrix Gateway option.

A single high end ESXi physcial host around the 5 virtual servers could handle the 93 remote connections between them at a cost of around £5,000 (add another for the resilience/redundanc
y).

MS server licencing should cost in the region of £130 (times 5)
MS Remote desktop CALS around £5 (times 93)
Citrix server licence around £700 (times 5)

If the back end is configured correctly then cheap throwaway Android tablets valued at around £80 a pop from Maplins would suffice. Unless its now in a police officers remit to provide a macro ridden excel worksheet with costings/savings of his/her latest "collaring" plus a powerpoint presentation as to how the arrest took place ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]WatfordBandB[/bold] wrote: It would need to be a windows based tablet in order to merge with current infrastructure, this rules out ipads. Tough and ruggedized means that they are military tested and are therefore fit for this particular purpose. End of, but thanks for your comments.[/p][/quote]What makes you say that they must be Windows based? Moist systems are browser based and therefore Windows has little bearing on functionality. The police are not going to be carring these into battle, they will be using them as a tool for their work. Military standard ruggedisation may be overkill and therefore add unwarranted expense and cost to the project. This project, for 93 cars, has cost just shy of half a million pounds. What I am saying is that the police could have done the same thing for a tenth of the cost, just £50,000.[/p][/quote]I'm going to throw my two penneth in, as these are mobile devices we could discount being bound to Active/Open directory and go for the Citrix Gateway option. A single high end ESXi physcial host around the 5 virtual servers could handle the 93 remote connections between them at a cost of around £5,000 (add another for the resilience/redundanc y). MS server licencing should cost in the region of £130 (times 5) MS Remote desktop CALS around £5 (times 93) Citrix server licence around £700 (times 5) If the back end is configured correctly then cheap throwaway Android tablets valued at around £80 a pop from Maplins would suffice. Unless its now in a police officers remit to provide a macro ridden excel worksheet with costings/savings of his/her latest "collaring" plus a powerpoint presentation as to how the arrest took place ;-) Andrew Turpie
  • Score: 2

9:32pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Nascot wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Great imagination Tony.

There's not enough facts to go on.

I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure.

If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement.

I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices.

Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver.

There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution.
'If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices'

If I really is your favourite phrase..

If I were elected, if I were mayor ... etc

What makes you think they didn't.

Seeing as you are an IT expert, I suggets that you check out the specification;
http://business.pana

sonic.co.uk/computer

-product/toughpad/fz

-g1

Then tell us if an IPad (or anything else) really comes anywhere close to this bearing in mind the reality of the harsh Police environment that they will be used in.

IPads are only really designed to be balanced on your knee on the train.
Give you a start Phil

IPad - Operating temperature (as per Apple's own website) ◾Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F (0° to 35° C) = F*ck*ng useless in winter.
Panasonic FZ-G1 - Shock resistant. dropped from 180cm. Try that with an IPad
Panasonic FZ- G1 - Water and dust resistant (IP65) . IPad - NOT.
Where's the SD slot on an IPad?. Don't think they have one.
[quote][p][bold]Nascot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: Great imagination Tony. There's not enough facts to go on. I reckon this project could have been achieved at a fraction of the current cost. That's my professional opinion but I don't have all the facts to be sure. If the project is cost-effective in the first place, as you imagine it might be, then one that rolls in at a fraction of the cost would be an even greater achievement. I'm not insisting on Apple IPADs, just pointing out the market leader would be much cheaper. If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices. Innovation might have saved a lot of money, that's all I am saying. And saving our tax money is never a bad thing, particularly if there is no affect on the benefits such a project would deliver. There might be any number of reasons they chose what they chose. I just doubt any of them were worth the additional costs involved in this solution.[/p][/quote]'If I were running such a project I would have evaluated several different competing devices' If I really is your favourite phrase.. If I were elected, if I were mayor ... etc What makes you think they didn't. Seeing as you are an IT expert, I suggets that you check out the specification; http://business.pana sonic.co.uk/computer -product/toughpad/fz -g1 Then tell us if an IPad (or anything else) really comes anywhere close to this bearing in mind the reality of the harsh Police environment that they will be used in. IPads are only really designed to be balanced on your knee on the train.[/p][/quote]Give you a start Phil IPad - Operating temperature (as per Apple's own website) ◾Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F (0° to 35° C) = F*ck*ng useless in winter. Panasonic FZ-G1 - Shock resistant. dropped from 180cm. Try that with an IPad Panasonic FZ- G1 - Water and dust resistant (IP65) . IPad - NOT. Where's the SD slot on an IPad?. Don't think they have one. Nascot
  • Score: 1

9:35pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Forgot to add:

User replaceable battery. IPad No. Panasonic FZ-G1 Yes.
Forgot to add: User replaceable battery. IPad No. Panasonic FZ-G1 Yes. Nascot
  • Score: 1

11:14pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Next time I get the urge to take my IPAD for a walk, wading through rivers and chucking it into muddy puddles from a height of a few metres, I will be thinking of your words of wisdom about why I should have spent the huge amount of extra money on a toughpad.

However, for almost all other uses an IPAD does the job admirably at a fraction of the cost. Other tablets come in even cheaper. I only mentioned IPAD as it was the market leader and I can vouch for its qualities. It's often best not to just judge by price alone.

I can understand the army needing such robust qualities, it is also very useful in some manufacturing environments and building sites, but the police in patrol cars are not the army and do not generally do that wading through rivers and muddy puddle thing. Any sensible police person, faced with the unlikely event of having to wade through a river carrying a tablet computer followed by dropping said tablet from 2 metres height would probably have left it in the patrol car for safe keeping.

Just saying.
Next time I get the urge to take my IPAD for a walk, wading through rivers and chucking it into muddy puddles from a height of a few metres, I will be thinking of your words of wisdom about why I should have spent the huge amount of extra money on a toughpad. However, for almost all other uses an IPAD does the job admirably at a fraction of the cost. Other tablets come in even cheaper. I only mentioned IPAD as it was the market leader and I can vouch for its qualities. It's often best not to just judge by price alone. I can understand the army needing such robust qualities, it is also very useful in some manufacturing environments and building sites, but the police in patrol cars are not the army and do not generally do that wading through rivers and muddy puddle thing. Any sensible police person, faced with the unlikely event of having to wade through a river carrying a tablet computer followed by dropping said tablet from 2 metres height would probably have left it in the patrol car for safe keeping. Just saying. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: -1

11:21pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Feel Coax says...

But you are an IT Consultant and not a police officer stopping a car in December in the pouring rain . What use is an IPad then?
But you are an IT Consultant and not a police officer stopping a car in December in the pouring rain . What use is an IPad then? Feel Coax
  • Score: 2

11:30pm Fri 6 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.
You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

11:38pm Fri 6 Jun 14

LSC says...

Feel Coax wrote:
But you are an IT Consultant and not a police officer stopping a car in December in the pouring rain . What use is an IPad then?
What use is this new system over what we already have for stopping a car? The article clearly states it doesn't even involve traffic teams as yet.
[quote][p][bold]Feel Coax[/bold] wrote: But you are an IT Consultant and not a police officer stopping a car in December in the pouring rain . What use is an IPad then?[/p][/quote]What use is this new system over what we already have for stopping a car? The article clearly states it doesn't even involve traffic teams as yet. LSC
  • Score: 1

12:43pm Sat 7 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.
Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet.
WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance.
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.[/p][/quote]Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet. WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance. Nascot
  • Score: 1

3:19pm Sat 7 Jun 14

davidhornet says...

Feel Cox likes the sound of his own voice and as he knows about IT he is fully qualified to talk about any subject with complete authority and confidence.
Feel Cox likes the sound of his own voice and as he knows about IT he is fully qualified to talk about any subject with complete authority and confidence. davidhornet
  • Score: -1

5:07pm Sat 7 Jun 14

Feel Coax says...

No. I just do research before6 posting comments
No. I just do research before6 posting comments Feel Coax
  • Score: 1

8:54am Sun 8 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

Nascot wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote: You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.
Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet. WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance.
If you have so much time on your hands, please do tell how this device can be used in the open in a rainstorm with rain pouring on to the screen.
[quote][p][bold]Nascot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.[/p][/quote]Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet. WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance.[/p][/quote]If you have so much time on your hands, please do tell how this device can be used in the open in a rainstorm with rain pouring on to the screen. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

11:01am Sun 8 Jun 14

Nascot says...

Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote:
Nascot wrote:
Phil Cox (UKIP) wrote: You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.
Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet. WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance.
If you have so much time on your hands, please do tell how this device can be used in the open in a rainstorm with rain pouring on to the screen.
The touch pen
[quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nascot[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Phil Cox (UKIP)[/bold] wrote: You can't read a tablet screen in the pouring rain. Only a fool would try.[/p][/quote]Correct, for an IPad or any other similar tablet. WRONG for the Panasonic. Suggest you do research before you comment. A 5 minutes Google search to find out the full spec and capabilities just shows that you just comment for the sake of it without any substance.[/p][/quote]If you have so much time on your hands, please do tell how this device can be used in the open in a rainstorm with rain pouring on to the screen.[/p][/quote]The touch pen Nascot
  • Score: 1

12:02pm Sun 8 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

in that case, we must all be thankful that you are not involved in I.T. projects, and in particular not running I.T. projects.

I hope others have spotted the gaping flaw in your construct.
in that case, we must all be thankful that you are not involved in I.T. projects, and in particular not running I.T. projects. I hope others have spotted the gaping flaw in your construct. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

7:27am Mon 9 Jun 14

davidhornet says...

Feel Coax wrote:
No. I just do research before6 posting comments
Try spellchecker too......
[quote][p][bold]Feel Coax[/bold] wrote: No. I just do research before6 posting comments[/p][/quote]Try spellchecker too...... davidhornet
  • Score: 1

9:23am Mon 9 Jun 14

garston tony says...

I'm not too sure what all the fuss is about, the police will have put together a list of requirements for their tablets and obviously durability was one of them. Why are you trying to second guess that?

These Panasonics can be used in the rain according to the blurb, an ipad and many other tablets would soon break if you did that too often (ie even once probably!). They are going to be in constant use, most peoples usage is light in comparison. They are going to be taken into potentially rough environments and subjected to constant vibration from being attached to a vehicle, ordinary tablets rarely move from the sofa and are prone to breaking at even the slightest hint of a knock.

If organisation that basically only have tablets in their vehicles to tell them where their next destination is and/or what part to use feel the need for a tough tablet then I can well believe the coppers need that feature too. Their working environment is at times a lot tougher than someone delivering a food shop or looking at your boiler after all!
I'm not too sure what all the fuss is about, the police will have put together a list of requirements for their tablets and obviously durability was one of them. Why are you trying to second guess that? These Panasonics can be used in the rain according to the blurb, an ipad and many other tablets would soon break if you did that too often (ie even once probably!). They are going to be in constant use, most peoples usage is light in comparison. They are going to be taken into potentially rough environments and subjected to constant vibration from being attached to a vehicle, ordinary tablets rarely move from the sofa and are prone to breaking at even the slightest hint of a knock. If organisation that basically only have tablets in their vehicles to tell them where their next destination is and/or what part to use feel the need for a tough tablet then I can well believe the coppers need that feature too. Their working environment is at times a lot tougher than someone delivering a food shop or looking at your boiler after all! garston tony
  • Score: 3

9:48am Mon 9 Jun 14

Phil Cox (UKIP) says...

There are no moving parts in an IPAD therefore vibration is not an issue, it cannot be. This is true for most tablets if not all. Some are made better than others. IPADs, for example, are superbly well put together.

It's rather academic, the police have chosen their solution. We are just second guessing as Tony says. Some are better at this than others but the inner geek has been brought out of contributors such as Nascot and shown to be lacking.

I still believe a much more cost-effective solution could be found, but then I wasn't part of the project and so am only going by experience of such projects in general.

It is important to keep costs down particularly where the public purse is involved. That was my one and only point.

When I was working for the government I managed to shave 90% off a roll-out budget of about £60,000 just by taking a different approach to the previous manager.

Savings are often to be had, but often there is no will to make them as it is all paid for out of the public purse which has been budgeted for, effectively free money to those who spend it.

We must also remember that government budgets must be spent in full. Failure to do so may result in future budget cuts. This unwritten rule resulted in a government IT group I worked for purchasing game controllers and non-business software just to use up unspent budget. No business use or business case whatsoever, just wasting public money for the sake of it.

It may be different now. Then again, it may not. It's our money, it should be spent wisely.
There are no moving parts in an IPAD therefore vibration is not an issue, it cannot be. This is true for most tablets if not all. Some are made better than others. IPADs, for example, are superbly well put together. It's rather academic, the police have chosen their solution. We are just second guessing as Tony says. Some are better at this than others but the inner geek has been brought out of contributors such as Nascot and shown to be lacking. I still believe a much more cost-effective solution could be found, but then I wasn't part of the project and so am only going by experience of such projects in general. It is important to keep costs down particularly where the public purse is involved. That was my one and only point. When I was working for the government I managed to shave 90% off a roll-out budget of about £60,000 just by taking a different approach to the previous manager. Savings are often to be had, but often there is no will to make them as it is all paid for out of the public purse which has been budgeted for, effectively free money to those who spend it. We must also remember that government budgets must be spent in full. Failure to do so may result in future budget cuts. This unwritten rule resulted in a government IT group I worked for purchasing game controllers and non-business software just to use up unspent budget. No business use or business case whatsoever, just wasting public money for the sake of it. It may be different now. Then again, it may not. It's our money, it should be spent wisely. Phil Cox (UKIP)
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Wed 11 Jun 14

TimberJim says...

The cost is more than just the actual tablets though. You've got to mount them in the car, power them and make sure they can receive the data. You then have to train people to use them. Of course you need software to run them on which needs (assuming a traditional waterfall process is used, rather than any kind of agile or scrum methodology, seeing as you are all IT experts you should understand these processes) specifying, developing, prototyping, testing, user acceptance testing and then probably another round dev/test plus integrating it all into any existing systems. There will then be an ongoing cost for support, plus the cost of the communications network.

But as you all say, just get it on a few iPads/cheap Android tablets run a web browser and I'm sure it'll be fine.
The cost is more than just the actual tablets though. You've got to mount them in the car, power them and make sure they can receive the data. You then have to train people to use them. Of course you need software to run them on which needs (assuming a traditional waterfall process is used, rather than any kind of agile or scrum methodology, seeing as you are all IT experts you should understand these processes) specifying, developing, prototyping, testing, user acceptance testing and then probably another round dev/test plus integrating it all into any existing systems. There will then be an ongoing cost for support, plus the cost of the communications network. But as you all say, just get it on a few iPads/cheap Android tablets run a web browser and I'm sure it'll be fine. TimberJim
  • Score: 0

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