LiveFarm Terrace Allotments: live coverage from the High Court judicial review

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Watford Observer: Photograph of the Author by , Chief Reporter

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Summary

  • Farm Terrace Allotment holders are challenging permission Eric Pickles gave to Watford Borough Council to use the site in the Watford Health Campus scheme at the High Court today.
  • The hearing has begun
  • Farm Terrace Allotments barrister Jason Coppel QC has set out his case
  • Watford Borough Council's barrister Robin Green has spoken
  • Zoë Leventhal addressed the judge on behalf of Eric Pickles and the Department of Communities and Local Government

4:51pm

The hearing is over and Mr Justice Ouseley should return his verdict in the next week.

4:51pm

Mr Justice Ouseley asked Ms Leventhal what Mr Pickles thought would happen to health campus if Farm Terrace was not included.

She said without the allotments, developers would be more nervous and the health campus would be loss-making for the council.

Mr Justice Ouseley pushed Ms Leventhal on whether Mr Pickles thought the health campus needed Farm Terrace to go ahead.

She said: "It's more subtle than saying it won't go ahead without the allotments. It's saying a viable scheme does not exist without the allotments".

She added that experts said Watford council would make a loss of £3.3m on the health campus.

Mr Justice Ouseley wondered out loud why Mr Pickles didn't cite the public sector making a loss without Farm Terrace in his reasoning.

4:06pm

Ms Leventhal said Mr Pickles was aware there were no defined plans to build hospital facilities on Farm Terrace land.

She added Watford council identified the allotments as a site for "optimal hospital expansion", even if only for an "aspirational" expansion.

Ms Leventhal says Mr Pickles was not under the impression the health campus could only go ahead by building over Farm Terrace.

He concluded without Farm Terrace the scheme had "more risks and viability concerns".

3:45pm

Zoë Leventhal is now addressing the judge on behalf of Eric Pickles and the Department of Communities and Local Government. 

Watford Observer:

She said when Mr Pickles made the decision it was a "balancing act" based on evidence in front of him.

She says he was not "misled" over the viability figures as knew they were from Watford Borough Council's point of view.

Ms Leventhal argued that Mr Pickles was not "misdirected" that the health campus would not go ahead without Farm Terrace land.

She says he drew a "more subtle" conclusion that not including Farm Terrace could make scheme unprofitable for the council.

3:43pm

Mr Green is now taking on the allotment-holders' argument that the hospital has no plans to expand as part of health campus scheme.

Watford Observer:

He cites a meeting last August between the hospital trust, Watford Borough Council, Kier and architects to discuss health campus design. 

Mr Green said the hospital trust is looking at what it wants to do at all its sites in its clinical strategy, so does not know yet. 

Mr Justice Ouseley asks where West Herts Hospitals NHS Trust will get the money to redevelop and expand the hospital, noting that it is in deficit.

Mr Green said the health campus is not designed to raise money for the trust so funding for redevelopment must come from the NHS. 

Mr Justice Ouseley asked if Mr Pickles should not have been made aware there were no defined plans for new hospital facilities.

Mr Green said there will also be houses on Farm Terrace land and the hospital is still involved with the health campus even though plans are not finalised.

He added that even though the number of houses in the health campus has gone up (to 750) it doesn't mean it's more profitable. The value of the land has gone down since last year which means scheme is actually less profitable now.

Interesting nugget - the scheme's overall profit was projected to be around £36m last year.

3:08pm

Mr Green said the heart of the plot-holders' case is whether Eric Pickles was "misled" over viability of health campus without Farm Terrace.

He said the council's application made it clear that its figures underpinning the viability claim were from the council and trust's perspective.

Mr Green said: "As far as the council is concerned this is a project of marginal viability" and added Eric Pickles was not 'misled' over figures. It was clear they represented the council's share of the health campus, he claimed.

2:57pm

Mr Green now addressing comments made by Mayor Dorothy Thornhill that health campus would go ahead with or without the Farm Terrace land.

He says what mayor meant was that if the land could not be used, the council would look at other ways to make scheme viable.

The judge, Mr Ouseley, asked Mr Green why the allotments were included in the health campus scheme in the first place.

Mr Green responds it was to give the scheme a "better layout" and improve its viability.

2:38pm

Mr Green says the Farm Terrace allotment-holders have been offered new plots at Holywell allotments in West Watford and Paddock Road, Oxhey.

He addressed the argument that the health campus is still profitable for developers Kier even if Farm Terrace is excluded.

He says Kier and Watford council are 50/50 partners in the health campus venture, which means if the council doesn't want to proceed it won't.

2:30pm

The judicial review is back from lunch and Mr Coppel has just finished speaking.

He said Mr Pickles was given a chance to reconsider Farm Terrace after the council released its finance information on the health campus.

However Mr Coppel said Mr Pickles declined, saying he has no power to reverse the decision.

The review is now hearing from barrister Robin Green, representing Watford Borough Council.

1:52pm

1:34pm

1:29pm

1:29pm

1:09pm

The judicial review has broken up for lunch. Watford Borough Council will speak after the break.

1:03pm

Mr Coppel concludes: "The Secretary of State got the facts wrong and the decision simply does not stack up."

12:30pm

Mr Coppel said taking developer Kier's returns into account the health campus makes around 18 per cent return even without Farm Terrace and is therefore viable.

12:28pm

Mr Coppel is now examining the Watford Borough Council application to Eric Pickles for permission to develop the Farm Terrace Allotments.

He read an extract where the council said the Farm Terrace site was identified as the most suitable place for hospital to expand.

Mr Coppel said this left Mr Pickles with a "misconception" about the likelihood of hospital expansion in the health campus scheme. 

He challenged the council's argument that the health campus is not financially 'viable' without the land, reading part of accountant's report that said without Farm Terrace the health campus will make a £3.3m loss.

Mr Coppel said this report only takes into account what Watford Borough Council will make from health campus, but not what developer Kier makes.

He said the report argues the scheme needs to make between 15 and 20 per cent return to be financially viable.

12:06pm

Mr Coppel said there is 'great uncertainty' over plans to redevelop Watford General Hospital.

He pointed to the hospital trust's "huge and worsening budget deficit" and comments from trust bosses saying they are not in a position to rebuild Watford General.

Me Coppel says documents from Watford Council show that the hospital would have 'flexibility' to expand without building over Farm Terrace, and that the council failed to tell Eric Pickles that up to 20 per cent of allotment land would be used for a new Watford FC car park.

11:51am

Mr Coppel said the health campus will go ahead if Farm Terrace is built on or not. He cites Mayor Dorothy Thornhill who said the council would 'crack on' with the health campus no matter the result of the Farm Terrace legal challenge.

11:40am

Mr Coppel is now talking about the decision Secretary of State Eric Pickles made allowing Farm Terrace to be built on in the health campus, the crux of the case.

He said Mr Pickles's decision 'falls down' after any 'sensible analysis' of the conclusions he based it on.

Watford Observer:

11:31am

10:59am Fri 25 Jul 14

TRT says

So Dotty says that if the allotments stay, it closes the door on hospital development. This presupposes that the building scheme goes ahead as planned, in this economic climate, delivering housing and profits for the developers and that is all. So, therefore the primary motivation for this entire scheme is not health but profit. I think she's nailed her colours to the mast, there.

11:30am

Robert Wakeling says his plot is a source of exercise for him and his wife and fresh veg for his friends and family. 

Another plot holder, Massimo Trebar, says Farm Terrace is a 'historical, cultural and environmental gem'.

He also said that plot-holders have had to fight rhetoric about Farm Terrace being a choice of allotments or a hospital.

He added that the health campus plans have no proposals for new hospital.

Watford Observer:

11:11am

Farm Terrace Allotments barrister Jason Coppel QC has opened by pointing out how many allotment holders have come to court for hearing - our reporter Mike Wright says the hearing room is packed out.

He described the case as not just about Farm Terrace but also a 'litmus test' for how much protection allotments have from developers.

11:07am

10:59am

Speaking in June 2012, Gerry Barker, chairman of West Watford and Oxhey Garden Society, said if the allotments were lost, tenants would lose years of hard work.

He said: "If you move the allotments and give someone an alternative site, it will take three years to get a response. Some people have very well established plants and trees. It is irreversible in that respect."

Here he is with Mary Reid, Malcolm Meerabux, Wendy Ballie, Virgine Jones and Peter Ballie.

Watford Observer:

10:55am

Some more history, here is how were reported the news that the allotments were to be considered as part of the scheme due to the worsening economic climate, way back in 2012.
 

10:53am

10:35am

Watford’s elected mayor said preserving the Farm Terrace Allotments in the health campus scheme would mean "closing the door" on a future hospital development.

Watford Observer:

Dorothy Thornhill said the allotments were also needed to ensure the 750-home regeneration venture secured a good return for the town’s taxpayers.

She added: "Them (the Farm Terrace plot-holders) staying in place means the council does not get a return and that means problems for the Watford taxpayer."

10:31am

For a complete timeline dating back to 1882, have a look at this graphic we published yesterday.

Watford Observer:

10:29am

A quick history lesson while we wait for things to begin.

  • Eric Pickles, the Secretary of State of Communities and Local Government, gave permission for the Health Campus to be built on the 100-year-old allotments in December.
  • Plot-holders are challenging this permission, which would allow 750 homes, new businesses, and space for potential new hospital facilities, to be built behind Vicarage Road.
  • They argue that the scheme could go ahead without using the allotment land.
  • Mr Pickles said he had seen evidence that the health campus would not be "economically viable" without the allotment land.
  • The allotment holders counter that the council’s evidence said the allotments would make the scheme "more viable" rather than being essential.
  • The health campus master plan shows that up to 20 per cent of the allotment land would be used for a Watford FC car park.

10:23am

10:20am

10:19am

10:19am

Chief Reporter Mike Wright is also at the High Court today and will be sending updates as they come:

10:01am

Allotment holders and campaigners posted this image as they travelled to the High Court this morning.

10:00am

We will be posting live updates from the High Court this morning as the members of Save Farm Terrace launch a judicial review into the decision to use the site as part of the Watford Health Campus.

Comments (52)

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9:59am Fri 25 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Where is Dotty and Sharpe? are they in Court?
Where is Dotty and Sharpe? are they in Court? Veritas
  • Score: 8

10:59am Fri 25 Jul 14

TRT says...

So Dotty says that if the allotments stay, it closes the door on hospital development. This presupposes that the building scheme goes ahead as planned, in this economic climate, delivering housing and profits for the developers and that is all. So, therefore the primary motivation for this entire scheme is not health but profit. I think she's nailed her colours to the mast, there.
So Dotty says that if the allotments stay, it closes the door on hospital development. This presupposes that the building scheme goes ahead as planned, in this economic climate, delivering housing and profits for the developers and that is all. So, therefore the primary motivation for this entire scheme is not health but profit. I think she's nailed her colours to the mast, there. TRT
  • Score: 21

1:25pm Fri 25 Jul 14

TRT says...

Who is likely to mis-lead the decision makers to get a result favourable to them, the FTA group or the development partners? I'm a great fan of Columbo, and when looking for a motive he would often quote All The President's Men; "Follow the money." Cui bono?
Allotment holders have been offered alternative sites - they stand to gain relatively little if they win. They maintain the status quo. They stand to lose a few years cultivation and have to travel to the alternative site.
The trust partners, on the other hand, stand to gain in excess of £20m.

Any submission made, any argument presented, by the council and by Kier and even by the Trust, must be 100% watertight and beyond reproach. There must be no shadiness or ambiguity in the figures. Were they expecting their plans to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by anyone? Do they expect their residents, citizens, council-tax payers to be idiots, unable to put two and two together? Do they treat their electorate with contempt when they behave like that?
Who is likely to mis-lead the decision makers to get a result favourable to them, the FTA group or the development partners? I'm a great fan of Columbo, and when looking for a motive he would often quote All The President's Men; "Follow the money." Cui bono? Allotment holders have been offered alternative sites - they stand to gain relatively little if they win. They maintain the status quo. They stand to lose a few years cultivation and have to travel to the alternative site. The trust partners, on the other hand, stand to gain in excess of £20m. Any submission made, any argument presented, by the council and by Kier and even by the Trust, must be 100% watertight and beyond reproach. There must be no shadiness or ambiguity in the figures. Were they expecting their plans to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb by anyone? Do they expect their residents, citizens, council-tax payers to be idiots, unable to put two and two together? Do they treat their electorate with contempt when they behave like that? TRT
  • Score: 11

1:43pm Fri 25 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

All the Farm Terrace fight club
every success, gawd knows you deserve it
All the Farm Terrace fight club every success, gawd knows you deserve it ancientandageing
  • Score: 11

4:22pm Fri 25 Jul 14

theturpster says...

Why have none of the deceitful liars not been asked to take the stand? Did they turn up or can't they look the allotment holders in the eye?
Why have none of the deceitful liars not been asked to take the stand? Did they turn up or can't they look the allotment holders in the eye? theturpster
  • Score: 8

7:00pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Veritas says...

sounds like the judge smells a rat 3.43pm

"Mr Green said the health campus is not designed to raise money for the trust so funding for redevelopment must come from the NHS"

You could not make this up!!! Ha Ha

All along we are told Allotments were needed for Hospital.

We suspect Terrace Farm QC has a bit more in Back up to really
kill of this fantasy
sounds like the judge smells a rat 3.43pm "Mr Green said the health campus is not designed to raise money for the trust so funding for redevelopment must come from the NHS" You could not make this up!!! Ha Ha All along we are told Allotments were needed for Hospital. We suspect Terrace Farm QC has a bit more in Back up to really kill of this fantasy Veritas
  • Score: 9

7:40pm Fri 25 Jul 14

scarecrow says...

Well done everyone, a great day in court, power to the people. Hope you all get the outcome you have worked so hard for. Farm Terrace Allotments for ever.
Well done everyone, a great day in court, power to the people. Hope you all get the outcome you have worked so hard for. Farm Terrace Allotments for ever. scarecrow
  • Score: 10

9:07pm Fri 25 Jul 14

crazyfrog says...

The mayor might think she's pulled the wool over some of the general publics eyes but hopefully the judge won't be as easily fooled.
The mayor might think she's pulled the wool over some of the general publics eyes but hopefully the judge won't be as easily fooled. crazyfrog
  • Score: 9

11:05pm Fri 25 Jul 14

Reckless Spirit says...

Do not personally have anything to do with Farm Terrace, but parents have owned allotments on Oxhey Grange for years and I grew up in these allotments. I know the hard work that goes into them and how important they are for the community and it IS a communal activity as well as helping relieve stress, good exercise, good eating etc. I have photos from yesterday evening of my 3-year old and another allotment child helping put beans into bags, picking raspberries and generally enjoying the outdoors. Its incredibly beneficial for the development of these young children. Allotments are important and I do not understand the warped thinking of someone wanting to build over them and offering new plots elsewhere (do they not realise that you cannot replace an allotment plot!!). There needs to be more allotment plots built here in Watford; not land-grabbing them for profit.
Do not personally have anything to do with Farm Terrace, but parents have owned allotments on Oxhey Grange for years and I grew up in these allotments. I know the hard work that goes into them and how important they are for the community and it IS a communal activity as well as helping relieve stress, good exercise, good eating etc. I have photos from yesterday evening of my 3-year old and another allotment child helping put beans into bags, picking raspberries and generally enjoying the outdoors. Its incredibly beneficial for the development of these young children. Allotments are important and I do not understand the warped thinking of someone wanting to build over them and offering new plots elsewhere (do they not realise that you cannot replace an allotment plot!!). There needs to be more allotment plots built here in Watford; not land-grabbing them for profit. Reckless Spirit
  • Score: 12

10:32am Sat 26 Jul 14

Cuthbert007 says...

The health campus plans show it will not be complete untill 2025. They also have a massive deficit of millions which will get deaper each year and as reported in the watford observer wgh have asked the government to give them £40m + to update some of the old buildings at Watford general hospital. Its not rocket science but why do they not use the £40m+ to help build the new health campus? They should leave the allotments alone as I would bet this health campus will never get completed. Management will change in a few years a new CEO and the blame game will start with no cash available to procees with it. Its all politics !!!!
The health campus plans show it will not be complete untill 2025. They also have a massive deficit of millions which will get deaper each year and as reported in the watford observer wgh have asked the government to give them £40m + to update some of the old buildings at Watford general hospital. Its not rocket science but why do they not use the £40m+ to help build the new health campus? They should leave the allotments alone as I would bet this health campus will never get completed. Management will change in a few years a new CEO and the blame game will start with no cash available to procees with it. Its all politics !!!! Cuthbert007
  • Score: 1

11:18am Sat 26 Jul 14

TRT says...

My fear is that this judge will be questioning if Mr Pickles decision was made correctly not simply is the decision correct. It's obvious that the decision was wrong but could have been made based on accurate information and with disclosure. The judgment of the minister isn't in question, just did he have all the facts. We all know he's a miserable toadying git, but is he a well informed miserable toadying git?
My fear is that this judge will be questioning if Mr Pickles decision was made correctly not simply is the decision correct. It's obvious that the decision was wrong but could have been made based on accurate information and with disclosure. The judgment of the minister isn't in question, just did he have all the facts. We all know he's a miserable toadying git, but is he a well informed miserable toadying git? TRT
  • Score: 6

11:31am Sat 26 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

TRT wrote:
My fear is that this judge will be questioning if Mr Pickles decision was made correctly not simply is the decision correct. It's obvious that the decision was wrong but could have been made based on accurate information and with disclosure. The judgment of the minister isn't in question, just did he have all the facts. We all know he's a miserable toadying git, but is he a well informed miserable toadying git?
I will be shocked if it goes Pickles/Thornhills way, that said Judical review is not adverse to the odd shocking result.

Think we just have to wait and see all sorts can happen
Fingers grossed and all that
[quote][p][bold]TRT[/bold] wrote: My fear is that this judge will be questioning if Mr Pickles decision was made correctly not simply is the decision correct. It's obvious that the decision was wrong but could have been made based on accurate information and with disclosure. The judgment of the minister isn't in question, just did he have all the facts. We all know he's a miserable toadying git, but is he a well informed miserable toadying git?[/p][/quote]I will be shocked if it goes Pickles/Thornhills way, that said Judical review is not adverse to the odd shocking result. Think we just have to wait and see all sorts can happen Fingers grossed and all that ancientandageing
  • Score: 2

7:23pm Sat 26 Jul 14

Wacko Jacko says...

I think it's all in the numbers:
Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60
Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000
Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000
Number of people on the housing wait list - around 4,000
Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions
So the picture I see is a small number of selfish allotment holders who are holding thousands if not millions of other residents to ransom over access to housing and a modernised hospital. And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us.
I hope the decision goes against the protesters and the wider public good prevails. It may be time to start planting sour grapes in readiness for that decision.
I think it's all in the numbers: Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60 Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000 Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000 Number of people on the housing wait list - around 4,000 Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions So the picture I see is a small number of selfish allotment holders who are holding thousands if not millions of other residents to ransom over access to housing and a modernised hospital. And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us. I hope the decision goes against the protesters and the wider public good prevails. It may be time to start planting sour grapes in readiness for that decision. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: -18

8:00pm Sat 26 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!!
Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!! itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -18

9:44pm Sat 26 Jul 14

HertsPeter says...

Really hoping the allotment holders win. If only to make Dotty realise you can't always get everything you want. She was originally elected as Mayor on a pledge to get rid of the post, and has since turned the position, and the town, into a personal fiefdom. Watford's Thatcher, allotment snatcher!
Really hoping the allotment holders win. If only to make Dotty realise you can't always get everything you want. She was originally elected as Mayor on a pledge to get rid of the post, and has since turned the position, and the town, into a personal fiefdom. Watford's Thatcher, allotment snatcher! HertsPeter
  • Score: 8

9:45pm Sat 26 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

@ wacko Jacko
The greatest happiness for the greatest number principle, utilitarianism of mill or Bantham then, except of course it has been argued that this is a distortion to the extent of being a lie, that Eric Pickles was misled and that the allotment holders and good people of Watford have similarly been misled.
Lets take the list in reverse order
1) Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions
Are you really saying that this provision will be threatened in any way by not building houses on the allotment site. If so how, and would the only reason be not building on the allotments or some other reason like the trust either having an unrealistic budget or being rubbish with money.
2) Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000
Of what relevance is this are you saying if Watford Football Club does not get a new car park that the trust will put a hospital elsewhere
3) Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000
What of it do you think these people will should rise up against their fellows in some fit of jealousy because the council is spending money on depriving farm terrace allotments of their plots.
4) Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60
Does it really matter if its six, sixty, or six hundred, the law is the law and in this case it protects their rights to their plots.
And as for using the figure of sixty it is a deceatfull manipulation of stats because allotments are generally effectively held and used by a family of 2, 3,4 0r 5 people, so lets double or treble that fig or cut the population by two thirds.
On to the meat of your post, you CANNOT say oh this is just a small group, it is a classic flaw of Utilitarian thought that it posits such questions as yours. The greatest happiness for the greatest number always falls down when presented with 1000 peoples happiness against extreme suffering of one, it is not conscionable, nor is depriving these 60 families of their allotments, without good purpose, due process, and appropriate compensation. And Wacko the alternative allotments are too far away, the purpose is not good because it is for a housing estate not as stated hospital facilities and the process is flawed in that it is based on the Secretary of state being misled.
The biggest way in which people have been misled is in the entirely bogus notion that by not building on the allotments we the wider public are being deprived of a “new hospital”; no no, there is no new hospital, so new “health facilities”; no no, there is none, so the “possibility of new facilities” sometime never is what building on the allotments gets us, there is no or very little perceivable public interest in the development of more houses on the allotment site.
In a perverse sense plan B not building on allotments entails higher density housing on the rest of the site, that is cheaper units , more affordable housing that may well be to the public good given the desperate shortages of such housing in Watford.
Now on numbers t does seem that this is being pushed through by about a score or so Libdem politicians with only the Mayor being at least notionally a direct rep of the people affected. For the record Mo Mills Jagter Sing and Jackie O’Connell have all publicly supported the allotment campaigners, my understanding is that these are the 3 cllrs for the area and they have been ignored, that the people most affected have also have been ignored, that the local population have also been ignored.
No doubt you see a wider public good, forget that it is just a pocket full of mumbles, you see it but it is for the good of at best 5/6 of the population with the 2 wards closest not really getting a overall benefit.
However there is a far wider “bad” affecting the whole nation by not following procedure, by running roughshod over marginal interest groups, by a majority council ignoring the law at the expense of a minority that cannot be ignored, so I hope that the Court finds in favour of he allotment holders and shines the light of justice and truth on this council
@ wacko Jacko The greatest happiness for the greatest number principle, utilitarianism of mill or Bantham then, except of course it has been argued that this is a distortion to the extent of being a lie, that Eric Pickles was misled and that the allotment holders and good people of Watford have similarly been misled. Lets take the list in reverse order 1) Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions Are you really saying that this provision will be threatened in any way by not building houses on the allotment site. If so how, and would the only reason be not building on the allotments or some other reason like the trust either having an unrealistic budget or being rubbish with money. 2) Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000 Of what relevance is this are you saying if Watford Football Club does not get a new car park that the trust will put a hospital elsewhere 3) Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000 What of it do you think these people will should rise up against their fellows in some fit of jealousy because the council is spending money on depriving farm terrace allotments of their plots. 4) Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60 Does it really matter if its six, sixty, or six hundred, the law is the law and in this case it protects their rights to their plots. And as for using the figure of sixty it is a deceatfull manipulation of stats because allotments are generally effectively held and used by a family of 2, 3,4 0r 5 people, so lets double or treble that fig or cut the population by two thirds. On to the meat of your post, you CANNOT say oh this is just a small group, it is a classic flaw of Utilitarian thought that it posits such questions as yours. The greatest happiness for the greatest number always falls down when presented with 1000 peoples happiness against extreme suffering of one, it is not conscionable, nor is depriving these 60 families of their allotments, without good purpose, due process, and appropriate compensation. And Wacko the alternative allotments are too far away, the purpose is not good because it is for a housing estate not as stated hospital facilities and the process is flawed in that it is based on the Secretary of state being misled. The biggest way in which people have been misled is in the entirely bogus notion that by not building on the allotments we the wider public are being deprived of a “new hospital”; no no, there is no new hospital, so new “health facilities”; no no, there is none, so the “possibility of new facilities” sometime never is what building on the allotments gets us, there is no or very little perceivable public interest in the development of more houses on the allotment site. In a perverse sense plan B not building on allotments entails higher density housing on the rest of the site, that is cheaper units , more affordable housing that may well be to the public good given the desperate shortages of such housing in Watford. Now on numbers t does seem that this is being pushed through by about a score or so Libdem politicians with only the Mayor being at least notionally a direct rep of the people affected. For the record Mo Mills Jagter Sing and Jackie O’Connell have all publicly supported the allotment campaigners, my understanding is that these are the 3 cllrs for the area and they have been ignored, that the people most affected have also have been ignored, that the local population have also been ignored. No doubt you see a wider public good, forget that it is just a pocket full of mumbles, you see it but it is for the good of at best 5/6 of the population with the 2 wards closest not really getting a overall benefit. However there is a far wider “bad” affecting the whole nation by not following procedure, by running roughshod over marginal interest groups, by a majority council ignoring the law at the expense of a minority that cannot be ignored, so I hope that the Court finds in favour of he allotment holders and shines the light of justice and truth on this council ancientandageing
  • Score: 5

3:22am Sun 27 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Whako really is that, he is talking utter crap.

We see him in action all the time, he does not have the Brains to come up with such a pathetic defence of the development.

We suspect the Developers Sin spin Machine has written it for him,
as they will be big losers of more greedy profits.

Mind you we always have a good laugh when see him mumbling at
meetings, and looking for re assurance from the teacher.
Whako really is that, he is talking utter crap. We see him in action all the time, he does not have the Brains to come up with such a pathetic defence of the development. We suspect the Developers Sin spin Machine has written it for him, as they will be big losers of more greedy profits. Mind you we always have a good laugh when see him mumbling at meetings, and looking for re assurance from the teacher. Veritas
  • Score: 4

7:51am Sun 27 Jul 14

theturpster says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
I think it's all in the numbers:
Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60
Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000
Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000
Number of people on the housing wait list - around 4,000
Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions
So the picture I see is a small number of selfish allotment holders who are holding thousands if not millions of other residents to ransom over access to housing and a modernised hospital. And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us.
I hope the decision goes against the protesters and the wider public good prevails. It may be time to start planting sour grapes in readiness for that decision.
More wind and p1sh from the resident website comedian. Not once have you been able to provide a list of benefits that 750 dwellings will bring to an over populated WD18. I'm currently waiting until September for an appointment to get a couple of fillings at my dentist. Use that as a barometer as to how crowded an area this really is (however I'm not convinced you are a WD18 resident). You know the hospital expansion can go on without the allotment land. So get off your high horse, there are people in this world who aren't prepared to be flipped over and dry bummed and lied too by the very people we pay to look after our quality of living.
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: I think it's all in the numbers: Number of Farm Terrace allotment holders affected - less than 60 Number of allotment holders overall in Watford - over 1000 Number of residents living in Watford -well over 80,000 Number of people on the housing wait list - around 4,000 Overall number of residents in West Herts served by the hospital - several millions So the picture I see is a small number of selfish allotment holders who are holding thousands if not millions of other residents to ransom over access to housing and a modernised hospital. And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us. I hope the decision goes against the protesters and the wider public good prevails. It may be time to start planting sour grapes in readiness for that decision.[/p][/quote]More wind and p1sh from the resident website comedian. Not once have you been able to provide a list of benefits that 750 dwellings will bring to an over populated WD18. I'm currently waiting until September for an appointment to get a couple of fillings at my dentist. Use that as a barometer as to how crowded an area this really is (however I'm not convinced you are a WD18 resident). You know the hospital expansion can go on without the allotment land. So get off your high horse, there are people in this world who aren't prepared to be flipped over and dry bummed and lied too by the very people we pay to look after our quality of living. theturpster
  • Score: 5

8:36am Sun 27 Jul 14

#UKMum says...

"And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us."

So you actually agree that this land is a PUBLIC asset. that's what the allotmenteers are saying. Why is the Council then selling to the PRIVATE sector? Once this is done it will belong to half a dozen or so private individuals, some of whom won't even have been Watford residents. So therefore you are actualyy suggesting that your "democratic" administration is wanting to disenfranchise Watford residents????
"And let us not forget that the allotments are not 'their' land, it is public land and belongs to every one of us." So you actually agree that this land is a PUBLIC asset. that's what the allotmenteers are saying. Why is the Council then selling to the PRIVATE sector? Once this is done it will belong to half a dozen or so private individuals, some of whom won't even have been Watford residents. So therefore you are actualyy suggesting that your "democratic" administration is wanting to disenfranchise Watford residents???? #UKMum
  • Score: 4

10:10am Sun 27 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

umm as to whos land it is

Fact the allotment holders are that holders of the allotmant
Fact if you own the freehold you are holder of the land via freehold
Fact if you own the leeshold you are holder of the land via lease
in all cases you can talk of the land as yours with a degree of accuracy.
In all cases ultimatlly the crown owns the land and not the holder.
As to your rights in relation to this land that would be regulated by statute, which is exactly why there is a court case the allotment holders are using the act passed by parlimemt to defend their percieved rights as allotment holders.
The council as freeholders clearly want to assert other rights although the policy of giving compensation to allotment holders is does in their stated viewfullfill an obligation under law that they have to the allotment holders.
The Question is is this adaquate, and in all the circumstances are they justified in their actions?
The law on allotments sets out strict criteria and the council may not have met that criteria. In addition there is a question as to if the secrety of state was misled, maybe if he colluded in being misled, that is heard what he wanted to hear and the like.
umm as to whos land it is Fact the allotment holders are that holders of the allotmant Fact if you own the freehold you are holder of the land via freehold Fact if you own the leeshold you are holder of the land via lease in all cases you can talk of the land as yours with a degree of accuracy. In all cases ultimatlly the crown owns the land and not the holder. As to your rights in relation to this land that would be regulated by statute, which is exactly why there is a court case the allotment holders are using the act passed by parlimemt to defend their percieved rights as allotment holders. The council as freeholders clearly want to assert other rights although the policy of giving compensation to allotment holders is does in their stated viewfullfill an obligation under law that they have to the allotment holders. The Question is is this adaquate, and in all the circumstances are they justified in their actions? The law on allotments sets out strict criteria and the council may not have met that criteria. In addition there is a question as to if the secrety of state was misled, maybe if he colluded in being misled, that is heard what he wanted to hear and the like. ancientandageing
  • Score: -1

11:01am Sun 27 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

Hopefully the judge will order the allotment holders to repay all the public money that has been wasted with all these appeals.
Hopefully the judge will order the allotment holders to repay all the public money that has been wasted with all these appeals. itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -11

4:07pm Sun 27 Jul 14

#UKMum says...

The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''.
The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''. #UKMum
  • Score: 5

4:11pm Sun 27 Jul 14

watfordrick says...

itsafamilyclub!!! wrote:
Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!!
Building over the Allotments isn't going to develop the Hospital. Can't you read?
[quote][p][bold]itsafamilyclub!!![/bold] wrote: Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!![/p][/quote]Building over the Allotments isn't going to develop the Hospital. Can't you read? watfordrick
  • Score: 13

4:13pm Sun 27 Jul 14

#UKMum says...

As for wasting Public Money. WBC has the record on that one by a long margin.
As for wasting Public Money. WBC has the record on that one by a long margin. #UKMum
  • Score: 8

4:25pm Sun 27 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

#UKMum wrote:
The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''.
Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'..
[quote][p][bold]#UKMum[/bold] wrote: The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''.[/p][/quote]Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'.. itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -14

5:06pm Sun 27 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

itsafamilyclub!!! wrote:
#UKMum wrote:
The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''.
Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'..
oh the irony
[quote][p][bold]itsafamilyclub!!![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]#UKMum[/bold] wrote: The allotmentholders have self funded their action but WBC and Eric Pickles are charging their costs to tax and rate payers. If you are counting costs don't blame the Allotmenteers as their side asked Mr Pickles if he was sure he wanted to proceed and Mr Pickles said 'Yes''.[/p][/quote]Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'..[/p][/quote]oh the irony ancientandageing
  • Score: 7

5:08pm Sun 27 Jul 14

#UKMum says...

"Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'.."

I certainly haven't been slaving over a grindstone that's true but I note you like grinding yours..
"Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'.." I certainly haven't been slaving over a grindstone that's true but I note you like grinding yours.. #UKMum
  • Score: 7

5:22pm Sun 27 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

#UKMum wrote:
"Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'.."

I certainly haven't been slaving over a grindstone that's true but I note you like grinding yours..
oooooooh I like to grind love ;-)


Stop flirting x
[quote][p][bold]#UKMum[/bold] wrote: "Not the sharpest tool in the allotment shed are you '#UKMum'.." I certainly haven't been slaving over a grindstone that's true but I note you like grinding yours..[/p][/quote]oooooooh I like to grind love ;-) Stop flirting x itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -15

5:48pm Sun 27 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

Im very much looking forward to the judgement, you allotment holders do realise that Hemel hospital has been all but closed down and St Albans as well is now just a few departments.....


Public money aside with the appeals, its a shame you have spent so much of your own on these silly appeals, im sure that family members could have done with it for deposits on houses etc.

You have been offered alternative sites to grow marrows and onions..
Im very much looking forward to the judgement, you allotment holders do realise that Hemel hospital has been all but closed down and St Albans as well is now just a few departments..... Public money aside with the appeals, its a shame you have spent so much of your own on these silly appeals, im sure that family members could have done with it for deposits on houses etc. You have been offered alternative sites to grow marrows and onions.. itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -19

6:56pm Sun 27 Jul 14

Wacko Jacko says...

Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.
Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes. Wacko Jacko
  • Score: -16

8:34pm Sun 27 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

Wacko Jacko wrote:
Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.
+5 says some have read and agree
your -10 says more have read and disagree

two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them
[quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.[/p][/quote]+5 says some have read and agree your -10 says more have read and disagree two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them ancientandageing
  • Score: 13

8:46pm Sun 27 Jul 14

TRT says...

ancientandageing wrote:
Wacko Jacko wrote:
Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.
+5 says some have read and agree
your -10 says more have read and disagree

two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them
You must understand, Wacko and Club are naturally enthusiastic about the wealth campus plans because it means building a new bridge they can sit under and menace billy goats from.
[quote][p][bold]ancientandageing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.[/p][/quote]+5 says some have read and agree your -10 says more have read and disagree two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them[/p][/quote]You must understand, Wacko and Club are naturally enthusiastic about the wealth campus plans because it means building a new bridge they can sit under and menace billy goats from. TRT
  • Score: 20

8:58pm Sun 27 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

TRT wrote:
ancientandageing wrote:
Wacko Jacko wrote:
Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.
+5 says some have read and agree
your -10 says more have read and disagree

two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them
You must understand, Wacko and Club are naturally enthusiastic about the wealth campus plans because it means building a new bridge they can sit under and menace billy goats from.
I thought it was down to me being right, No?
[quote][p][bold]TRT[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ancientandageing[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wacko Jacko[/bold] wrote: Ancientandageing is clearly losing his plot, the idea of these pages is to post pithy relevant comments, not a tedious essay which no-one can be bothered to read. Precis required next time please. In the meantime keep digging, it's not too late to plant some more sour grapes.[/p][/quote]+5 says some have read and agree your -10 says more have read and disagree two or three days in digressing from a postcard comment format seems reasoable to me, however if you have a list of rules please post them[/p][/quote]You must understand, Wacko and Club are naturally enthusiastic about the wealth campus plans because it means building a new bridge they can sit under and menace billy goats from.[/p][/quote]I thought it was down to me being right, No? ancientandageing
  • Score: 0

1:09am Mon 28 Jul 14

drunkenduck says...

As we know these NOT going to be a heath Campus, because the Trust has no money, except for those tw@ts who see the sun out of Dottie @ss and believe anything she says. Even when the rest of us know she's a complete LIAR.

So the final question will be. Will Dorothy Thornhill, the mayor RESIGN?

After all, how can residents of Watford trust a mayor who lies to the public. And mislead everybody with the real truth.
As we know these NOT going to be a heath Campus, because the Trust has no money, except for those tw@ts who see the sun out of Dottie @ss and believe anything she says. Even when the rest of us know she's a complete LIAR. So the final question will be. Will Dorothy Thornhill, the mayor RESIGN? After all, how can residents of Watford trust a mayor who lies to the public. And mislead everybody with the real truth. drunkenduck
  • Score: 19

9:42am Mon 28 Jul 14

jasonwatford says...

Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots
Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots jasonwatford
  • Score: -19

10:22am Mon 28 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

jasonwatford wrote:
Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots
Their is no plan for NEW health facilities' just a plan to build a housing estate with no extra provision of schools or social amenities, you I and watford residents have been sold a pup here, that is what really annoys me!!!
If you cultivate veg and plants you you would know why moving is a problem apart from the distance you get the soil how you want it and grow stuff that suits, new land is starting over years of work.
The overgrown allotments are there becouse the council has chose not to offer them to eople who want allotments or becouse the council has closed the waiting list.
As for improvised, non standard sheeds and even ones past their best they are part of our heritage as much as having a pond at the top of town! Indeed their is more than a touch of Irony in putting up a street sculpture depicting an allotment gardener in Radlet Rd and Building on Farm Terrace Allotments.
[quote][p][bold]jasonwatford[/bold] wrote: Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots[/p][/quote]Their is no plan for NEW health facilities' just a plan to build a housing estate with no extra provision of schools or social amenities, you I and watford residents have been sold a pup here, that is what really annoys me!!! If you cultivate veg and plants you you would know why moving is a problem apart from the distance you get the soil how you want it and grow stuff that suits, new land is starting over years of work. The overgrown allotments are there becouse the council has chose not to offer them to eople who want allotments or becouse the council has closed the waiting list. As for improvised, non standard sheeds and even ones past their best they are part of our heritage as much as having a pond at the top of town! Indeed their is more than a touch of Irony in putting up a street sculpture depicting an allotment gardener in Radlet Rd and Building on Farm Terrace Allotments. ancientandageing
  • Score: 14

10:54am Mon 28 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

drunkenduck wrote:
As we know these NOT going to be a heath Campus, because the Trust has no money, except for those tw@ts who see the sun out of Dottie @ss and believe anything she says. Even when the rest of us know she's a complete LIAR.

So the final question will be. Will Dorothy Thornhill, the mayor RESIGN?

After all, how can residents of Watford trust a mayor who lies to the public. And mislead everybody with the real truth.
There is about as much chance of Dotty resigning as the sun actually shining out of her behind.

As for her being a Liar well She is a Libdem, so I am sure she will have entirly implausible reasoning to justify herself
[quote][p][bold]drunkenduck[/bold] wrote: As we know these NOT going to be a heath Campus, because the Trust has no money, except for those tw@ts who see the sun out of Dottie @ss and believe anything she says. Even when the rest of us know she's a complete LIAR. So the final question will be. Will Dorothy Thornhill, the mayor RESIGN? After all, how can residents of Watford trust a mayor who lies to the public. And mislead everybody with the real truth.[/p][/quote]There is about as much chance of Dotty resigning as the sun actually shining out of her behind. As for her being a Liar well She is a Libdem, so I am sure she will have entirly implausible reasoning to justify herself ancientandageing
  • Score: 7

11:18am Mon 28 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Ha Ha, Someone must be getting paid a lot of money to still go on about
silly "Campus"!!!! As it still implies Health!!

Run down??? Now that is an interesting description, overgrown????
its because this Dodgy Council have engineered it that way!!!
Ask Farm Terrace, about their ex fellow Plot holders???? Why they
are gone???

We dare say the same situation is happening on the Holywell? the
next allotment site in the Dodgy Councils eye!!

It is not a campus, it is a Dodgy Development!!! All sunday papers comment about lack of GP appointments. Sorry did not see any provision for that, schooling.

YYou only have to look at Cassio College, GP provision turned into a Supermarket, meaning thousands more people scrambling for GP
places further away

Oh we see, make your £40 million profit forget about the rest, typically
greedy developers, and Watford Dodgy Council
Ha Ha, Someone must be getting paid a lot of money to still go on about silly "Campus"!!!! As it still implies Health!! Run down??? Now that is an interesting description, overgrown???? its because this Dodgy Council have engineered it that way!!! Ask Farm Terrace, about their ex fellow Plot holders???? Why they are gone??? We dare say the same situation is happening on the Holywell? the next allotment site in the Dodgy Councils eye!! It is not a campus, it is a Dodgy Development!!! All sunday papers comment about lack of GP appointments. Sorry did not see any provision for that, schooling. YYou only have to look at Cassio College, GP provision turned into a Supermarket, meaning thousands more people scrambling for GP places further away Oh we see, make your £40 million profit forget about the rest, typically greedy developers, and Watford Dodgy Council Veritas
  • Score: 17

11:29am Mon 28 Jul 14

itsafamilyclub!!! says...

It would be interesting to know how much these feckless people have cost the tax payers of Watford with all these frivolous appeals..

WBC should take them to court to get some of the money back.
It would be interesting to know how much these feckless people have cost the tax payers of Watford with all these frivolous appeals.. WBC should take them to court to get some of the money back. itsafamilyclub!!!
  • Score: -14

11:30am Mon 28 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Lets see if any of the inept Opposition councillors ask for an enquiry
into the closing of Council allotment lists and other alleged unethical behaviour by the Council to facilitate the closing of Farm Terrace and other
allotment sites in West Watford, to facilitate this illusion of being
run down?

Wonder if any good investigative Journalists are looking into Dotty
and her cohorts, We are sure there is lots to dig up, look what Farm terrace dug up with the swedes, lots of alleged dodgy behaviour in the name of Swedes, sorry meant Greed!!
Lets see if any of the inept Opposition councillors ask for an enquiry into the closing of Council allotment lists and other alleged unethical behaviour by the Council to facilitate the closing of Farm Terrace and other allotment sites in West Watford, to facilitate this illusion of being run down? Wonder if any good investigative Journalists are looking into Dotty and her cohorts, We are sure there is lots to dig up, look what Farm terrace dug up with the swedes, lots of alleged dodgy behaviour in the name of Swedes, sorry meant Greed!! Veritas
  • Score: 12

11:32am Mon 28 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Take them to Court? Wow we are really losing plot?

Were the Dodgy council not taken to Court?
Take them to Court? Wow we are really losing plot? Were the Dodgy council not taken to Court? Veritas
  • Score: 4

12:10pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

itsafamilyclub!!! wrote:
It would be interesting to know how much these feckless people have cost the tax payers of Watford with all these frivolous appeals..

WBC should take them to court to get some of the money back.
nothing like a totally innacurate use of English to make you look compleatlly idiotic is there?

Feckless indeed having the gumption balls and drive to take a local authority and the gov to court is hardly feckless, it is of great effect, and should they win well.

As for your understanding of the legal systerm it is normal for the costs to follow the judgement, and the devil will be in the detail here, If it is all Pickles fault the costs will come from his dept, if WBcC then from them, and if THe Allotment holders they may be liable, although of course there may well be a public interest served by not awarding costs against Farm Terrace, that is in doing so access to justice could be seen to be restricted and making the Law inaccesable is a bad thing.
[quote][p][bold]itsafamilyclub!!![/bold] wrote: It would be interesting to know how much these feckless people have cost the tax payers of Watford with all these frivolous appeals.. WBC should take them to court to get some of the money back.[/p][/quote]nothing like a totally innacurate use of English to make you look compleatlly idiotic is there? Feckless indeed having the gumption balls and drive to take a local authority and the gov to court is hardly feckless, it is of great effect, and should they win well. As for your understanding of the legal systerm it is normal for the costs to follow the judgement, and the devil will be in the detail here, If it is all Pickles fault the costs will come from his dept, if WBcC then from them, and if THe Allotment holders they may be liable, although of course there may well be a public interest served by not awarding costs against Farm Terrace, that is in doing so access to justice could be seen to be restricted and making the Law inaccesable is a bad thing. ancientandageing
  • Score: 11

12:31pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

Veritas wrote:
Lets see if any of the inept Opposition councillors ask for an enquiry
into the closing of Council allotment lists and other alleged unethical behaviour by the Council to facilitate the closing of Farm Terrace and other
allotment sites in West Watford, to facilitate this illusion of being
run down?

Wonder if any good investigative Journalists are looking into Dotty
and her cohorts, We are sure there is lots to dig up, look what Farm terrace dug up with the swedes, lots of alleged dodgy behaviour in the name of Swedes, sorry meant Greed!!
As of today just wondering who they would ask I suppose they could ask the head of the Local authority, that would be Dotty and co, or they could ask the Gov bod in charge of local gov that would be lets see, scratch my head, whats his name ohh Yes Eric Pickles.

Unless and untill a judgement is made they can't really do much more than they have which is as local representatives support Farm Terrace allotmant campaign, without taking over and making it an overtly party political issue.
[quote][p][bold]Veritas[/bold] wrote: Lets see if any of the inept Opposition councillors ask for an enquiry into the closing of Council allotment lists and other alleged unethical behaviour by the Council to facilitate the closing of Farm Terrace and other allotment sites in West Watford, to facilitate this illusion of being run down? Wonder if any good investigative Journalists are looking into Dotty and her cohorts, We are sure there is lots to dig up, look what Farm terrace dug up with the swedes, lots of alleged dodgy behaviour in the name of Swedes, sorry meant Greed!![/p][/quote]As of today just wondering who they would ask I suppose they could ask the head of the Local authority, that would be Dotty and co, or they could ask the Gov bod in charge of local gov that would be lets see, scratch my head, whats his name ohh Yes Eric Pickles. Unless and untill a judgement is made they can't really do much more than they have which is as local representatives support Farm Terrace allotmant campaign, without taking over and making it an overtly party political issue. ancientandageing
  • Score: 6

2:05pm Mon 28 Jul 14

Andrew Turpie says...

jasonwatford wrote:
Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots
I don't know if they cover this in the Beano, but:

1> Noise doesn't kill plants. That is just a stupid statement.
2> There will not be a health CAMPUS with the deficit the trust is in.
3> Soil takes years of tending to before its fit for its optimum growing potential.

Maybe your parents could install a "stupid filter" on your computer to prevent you making a complete tool of yourself or maybe google a bit of research before posting?

(Above comment typed completely with tongue planted in cheek) :-)
[quote][p][bold]jasonwatford[/bold] wrote: Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots[/p][/quote]I don't know if they cover this in the Beano, but: 1> Noise doesn't kill plants. That is just a stupid statement. 2> There will not be a health CAMPUS with the deficit the trust is in. 3> Soil takes years of tending to before its fit for its optimum growing potential. Maybe your parents could install a "stupid filter" on your computer to prevent you making a complete tool of yourself or maybe google a bit of research before posting? (Above comment typed completely with tongue planted in cheek) :-) Andrew Turpie
  • Score: 15

3:25pm Mon 28 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Understand your points ancient, but surly it is Political?

Over development in West Watford, lack of school places, traffic, more people fighting over the Grammar school places, Lack of GP surgeries?

Labour should be fighting for Government money?

Taxes through hard our hard earn't money, pays for Hospitals, and in this case, it has be established no Development money will pay for
Hospital, as it is all a lie.

Who will pay for a new/upgraded hospital? Not a dodgy PFI? So the
residents lose twice!!

Access road across a beautiful Oxhey park, not needed?
Understand your points ancient, but surly it is Political? Over development in West Watford, lack of school places, traffic, more people fighting over the Grammar school places, Lack of GP surgeries? Labour should be fighting for Government money? Taxes through hard our hard earn't money, pays for Hospitals, and in this case, it has be established no Development money will pay for Hospital, as it is all a lie. Who will pay for a new/upgraded hospital? Not a dodgy PFI? So the residents lose twice!! Access road across a beautiful Oxhey park, not needed? Veritas
  • Score: 3

3:56pm Mon 28 Jul 14

ancientandageing says...

Well it is incresingly looking like we have been sold a pup here, thats for sure add to your list busnessess having to relocate, maybe lost jobs, and the scales are looking very different from how Dotty is portraying them.

What is needed is for Libdems to loss control of the council and not to the Torys gaining as they always defect to Libdem anyway (with the exception of Malcolm and look what happaned there)
Well it is incresingly looking like we have been sold a pup here, thats for sure add to your list busnessess having to relocate, maybe lost jobs, and the scales are looking very different from how Dotty is portraying them. What is needed is for Libdems to loss control of the council and not to the Torys gaining as they always defect to Libdem anyway (with the exception of Malcolm and look what happaned there) ancientandageing
  • Score: 4

8:32pm Mon 28 Jul 14

watfordrick says...

jasonwatford wrote:
Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots
I hope your not old enough to vote Jason !
[quote][p][bold]jasonwatford[/bold] wrote: Perhaps allotments holders should take WFC to court next for making too much noise everyother Saturday ??? If they have been offered other places to grow their beans and onions what really is the problem. Id rather a new campus than run down sheds and overgrown plots[/p][/quote]I hope your not old enough to vote Jason ! watfordrick
  • Score: 7

11:07pm Mon 28 Jul 14

TRT says...

itsafamilyclub!!! wrote:
Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!!
That's the only marrow transplant that site will ever see, believe me.
Just had an invite to talk to the development managers of the scheme. No doubt they wish to persuade me to withdraw my objection to the purchase order for the land for the access road they want to drive through that water margin wildlife area and playing field.
[quote][p][bold]itsafamilyclub!!![/bold] wrote: Poor marrow growers, lets hope they keep their allotments, those nasty people wanting urgent and long term medical care should get lost!!![/p][/quote]That's the only marrow transplant that site will ever see, believe me. Just had an invite to talk to the development managers of the scheme. No doubt they wish to persuade me to withdraw my objection to the purchase order for the land for the access road they want to drive through that water margin wildlife area and playing field. TRT
  • Score: 5

9:12am Wed 30 Jul 14

Veritas says...

Excellent tv story about farm terrace on BBC London news.

Lets hope we get some good investigative paper to look more into
this dodgy Council.

Manny lewis looked very uncomfortable, bet he did not need more
publicity, ha ha given his track record. Very Questionable how he runs the Council!!!

It all starts from the Top, Dotty and Co time to GO
Excellent tv story about farm terrace on BBC London news. Lets hope we get some good investigative paper to look more into this dodgy Council. Manny lewis looked very uncomfortable, bet he did not need more publicity, ha ha given his track record. Very Questionable how he runs the Council!!! It all starts from the Top, Dotty and Co time to GO Veritas
  • Score: 5

11:38am Thu 31 Jul 14

Stacy Hart says...

I hope Farm Terrace get the decision they deserve, been behind these guys from the start, its been an awful injustice, Tha council want the land to build yet more houses and turn Watford into a concrete jungle, Yet again devious thorn in ya side has been misleading residents. This has never been about the allotment taking up space designated as part of a new health campus, its purely been about more houses and more flats. Too often these days our communities are being bulldozed, individual lives shattered in the name of greed, thats all it is. Roll on next week, lets just hope the judge sees sense. :) XXX
I hope Farm Terrace get the decision they deserve, been behind these guys from the start, its been an awful injustice, Tha council want the land to build yet more houses and turn Watford into a concrete jungle, Yet again devious thorn in ya side has been misleading residents. This has never been about the allotment taking up space designated as part of a new health campus, its purely been about more houses and more flats. Too often these days our communities are being bulldozed, individual lives shattered in the name of greed, thats all it is. Roll on next week, lets just hope the judge sees sense. :) XXX Stacy Hart
  • Score: 4

12:16pm Thu 31 Jul 14

TRT says...

http://www.theguardi
an.com/environment/d
amian-carrington-blo
g/2014/jul/31/eric-p
ickles-taste-for-dog
ma-eats-localism-for
-breakfast

The Guardian runs a nice piece today...
http://www.theguardi an.com/environment/d amian-carrington-blo g/2014/jul/31/eric-p ickles-taste-for-dog ma-eats-localism-for -breakfast The Guardian runs a nice piece today... TRT
  • Score: 2

2:22am Fri 1 Aug 14

Veritas says...

most concerned about Manny Lewis statement that he needs to buikd 7000 houses?

Not to mention that Dodgy Community Housing trust with a Chief
EX on £120,000? Wanting to build more houses on Meriden and
Boundary Way?

Watford is Full!!
most concerned about Manny Lewis statement that he needs to buikd 7000 houses? Not to mention that Dodgy Community Housing trust with a Chief EX on £120,000? Wanting to build more houses on Meriden and Boundary Way? Watford is Full!! Veritas
  • Score: 0

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