Croxley Rail Link decision tomorrow (From Watford Observer)
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Croxley Rail Link decision tomorrow
9:00am Sunday 27th November 2011 in News
The Croxley Rail Link will be discussed by Hertfordshire County Council.
The proposed diversion and extension of the Watford branch of the Metropolitan line to Watford Junction via the High Street will be discussed on Monday.
Councillors will be asked to propose or reject the building of a viaduct, new track and stations between Croxley Green and Watford.
Comments(62)
scarecrow
says...
10:29am Sun 27 Nov 11
shalvey
says...
12:56pm Sun 27 Nov 11
ASAP!
miwe2
says...
4:27pm Sun 27 Nov 11
Nascot
says...
5:18pm Sun 27 Nov 11
scarecrow
says...
6:02pm Sun 27 Nov 11
LSC
says...
6:48pm Sun 27 Nov 11
scarecrow wrote:Does proximity to railways hinder education then? I never knew that.
Please reject it, far to close to local school !
scarecrow
says...
8:17pm Sun 27 Nov 11
chris6955
says...
10:19pm Sun 27 Nov 11
drunkenduck
says...
11:11pm Sun 27 Nov 11
Nascot wrote:Someone with proper common sense.. says err No! Bet residents in Nascot would be up in arms if these would happens to them. Why do we need the underground, it's Watford is a town not a city like London. Plus these already I line there. Having it all linked up wont be any benefits to many. The cost travelling from watford junction to croxley green will be far more then going by bus. That ugly, eye sore viaduct will end up getting graffiti, a pigeon mess for many and goodbye to the children playground, playing field.
Common sense says build it. We can then truly have a decent service that fully serves the town and connects us properly to the underground. Surely it can only bring benefit to Watford
drunkenduck
says...
11:13pm Sun 27 Nov 11
Nascot wrote:Stupid site, message came up say error! Say No to the Croxley Rail Link.
Common sense says build it. We can then truly have a decent service that fully serves the town and connects us properly to the underground. Surely it can only bring benefit to Watford
drunkenduck
says...
11:52pm Sun 27 Nov 11
Nascot wrote:Mayor Dorothy Thornhill quotes she's 100% behind it. So why does it say on her website "she keeps her promises, she pledges to make Watford EVEN better.. etc" But in the mean time, children’s playground will be ruined and damage to the green space and to the local residential neighbourhoods living nearby?
Common sense says build it. We can then truly have a decent service that fully serves the town and connects us properly to the underground. Surely it can only bring benefit to Watford
John Howard Norfolk
says...
8:15am Mon 28 Nov 11
Hertfordshire is what I call a "north/south" county as all main trunk routes - road and rail - go north/south. However the county stretches "east/west" and we sorely need this improvement which will make it possible to travel by train between Rickmansworth/Moor Park as far away as St Albans.
Robjeeva
says...
8:23am Mon 28 Nov 11
I have lived in North Watford, Rickmansworth and now Croxley. In addition, many family members and friends live in Harrow and Hillingdon. From all these locations I can see significant benefits of the proposal.
First safety: Watford met is not in central Watford it is in a housing estate. I am uncomfortable letting my fiancé walk there from Watford at night.
Accessibility: When I lived in North Watford I had no way of getting to the met line except from walking or getting two buses – it consistently proved impractical . To meet friends in Northwood for example would require two buses and a train (or a 40 min walk) for a 15-20 min journey by car.
Value for money: project provides good value for money for a rail project as it runs down an existing lines. No/minimal compulsory purchase, no green field construction and residents will be used to trains at they ran down the Croxley green line well into the 1990’s.
On an economic front this sort of infrastructure development is exactly the sort that will help stimulate economic growth. Creating Jobs in the short term and supporting Watford’s micro economy in the long term.
There are so many other benefits – not least access fo the west coast main line (to Liverpool and Manchester) for those currently on the Met line (without travelling into London)
Maclanx
says...
8:48am Mon 28 Nov 11
The Rover
says...
9:56am Mon 28 Nov 11
Personally I support the scheme and hope it gets a thumbs up.
TRT
says...
11:51am Mon 28 Nov 11
Mind you, several alternative plans were put forward some 15-20 years ago, and this one was brought forwards as being the most economically viable one. I just wonder if the numbers still stack up today.
As for schools near railway lines... the only one I can see near to the reopened line would be Lawrence Haines, and given the age of pupils attending there, the mode of transport for their pupils isn't going to switch to rail. Not only that, but I overheard a lady on London Midland last week pointing out an old school building near the line where she used to be a teacher, and whenever a train passed she had to stop talking because of the noise.
Also on the matter of schooling, the closure of the Met will see a longer walk for Boys Grammar pupils, which might alter their behaviour somewhat. Westfield *might* benefit slightly, but unless West Watford was reopened, it's still quite a walk from Vicarage Road or Ascot Road.
John Dowdle
says...
1:41pm Mon 28 Nov 11
According to a Croxley Rail Link briefing document on Funding, dated November 2011, the Scheme Cost Summary was £170.8 million as previously configured in 2010 but had fallen to £116.8 million for a revised 2011 scheme.
Can anyone explain this to me?
TRT
says...
1:49pm Mon 28 Nov 11
The project costs have fallen because in the revised scheme, they did away with staffing on the stations (thus lowering the price of the station considerably by removing the need for rest areas, secure booking hall structures etc. (There's a lovely document on TfL's website which gives design guidelines for their facilities, by the way) and doing other tinkering around the edges stuff relating to gradients, signalling, pointwork etc.
Andrew1963
says...
10:23am Tue 29 Nov 11
Robjeeva wrote:The key question will be finding the private sector investor to fund. On Watford Junction links it is disappointing that Virgin Trains no longer stop services to Livepool, Manchester, Preston or Glasgow at the station. You either have to change at Milton Keynes/Crewe, etc or go into Euston. An Amersham - Watford junction service has not been promised by TfL, so the main service would be Baker Street to watford Junction - A journey that can be done using the Bakerloo service. Of course you can get to some NW London destinations on the Met - But a better investment for £100 million would be two new platforms at Watford junction to operate a 20 minute East Croydon - Kensington -Wembley - Bushey - Watford Junction service on the mainline
I am fully in favour of the project and can not see a rational objection to the project except understandably from those who live very close to Watford Met. I have lived in North Watford, Rickmansworth and now Croxley. In addition, many family members and friends live in Harrow and Hillingdon. From all these locations I can see significant benefits of the proposal. First safety: Watford met is not in central Watford it is in a housing estate. I am uncomfortable letting my fiancé walk there from Watford at night. Accessibility: When I lived in North Watford I had no way of getting to the met line except from walking or getting two buses – it consistently proved impractical . To meet friends in Northwood for example would require two buses and a train (or a 40 min walk) for a 15-20 min journey by car. Value for money: project provides good value for money for a rail project as it runs down an existing lines. No/minimal compulsory purchase, no green field construction and residents will be used to trains at they ran down the Croxley green line well into the 1990’s. On an economic front this sort of infrastructure development is exactly the sort that will help stimulate economic growth. Creating Jobs in the short term and supporting Watford’s micro economy in the long term. There are so many other benefits – not least access fo the west coast main line (to Liverpool and Manchester) for those currently on the Met line (without travelling into London)
John Howard Norfolk
says...
10:34am Tue 29 Nov 11
TRT
says...
10:49am Tue 29 Nov 11
They ran tube trains into WJ once, you know. Remember that anyone? It was cut back as the duplication of service over most of the line made it uneconomic. Far better if they restored the Wiggenhall Road bridge and Wiggenhall depot for LO operations.
John Howard Norfolk
says...
10:53am Tue 29 Nov 11
Andrew1963
says...
1:45pm Tue 29 Nov 11
TRT
says...
1:48pm Tue 29 Nov 11
John Howard Norfolk
says...
2:01pm Tue 29 Nov 11
Bureaucracy.......(s
igh).....
Andrew1963
says...
4:42pm Tue 29 Nov 11
John Dowdle
says...
9:38pm Tue 29 Nov 11
Staffing costs are revenue costs and not capital costs, so how can cutting out all staff from the Croxley Link bring down the level of capital expediture required for the project?
If TRT is correct about a total absence of staff through the line, is this not a recipe for potential chaos, with passengers being attacked and capital facilities being wrecked?
Before shrugging off such ideas, try to recall why the late evening Abbey Flyer service was abandoned.
TRT
says...
10:08pm Tue 29 Nov 11
TRT
says...
10:17pm Tue 29 Nov 11
Note also part of the cost saving identified by closing Watford Met is the reuse of the existing gateline equipment. Mind you, most modern gatelines are electrically operated to save the cost of installing pneumatic equipment like is fitted at most pre-1980 stations. Not sure what's at the Met.
Andrew1963
says...
11:56am Wed 30 Nov 11
John Dowdle
says...
12:48pm Wed 30 Nov 11
TRT
says...
12:58pm Wed 30 Nov 11
http://urbandesign.t
fl.gov.uk/Updates/Un
derground/Watford-St
ation-Listed.aspx
So it is unlikely to be sold off and demolished!
John Dowdle
says...
1:07pm Wed 30 Nov 11
k/publications/local
-authority-major-sch
emes-development-poo
ls and PDF document for further details.
TRT
says...
1:15pm Wed 30 Nov 11
Ethelred the Unsteady
says...
3:07pm Wed 30 Nov 11
crazyfrog
says...
3:17pm Wed 30 Nov 11
crazyfrog
says...
3:20pm Wed 30 Nov 11
John Dowdle
says...
3:30pm Wed 30 Nov 11
TRT: I would not get your hopes up too high; many of these "approved" projects will only really get started in 3 or 4 years time; that is assuming the economic situation has not worsened by then, which it probably will. These "announcements" could all just be "talk" and no action at the end of the day.
Andrew1963
says...
11:03pm Wed 30 Nov 11
John Howard Norfolk
says...
11:08pm Wed 30 Nov 11
John Dowdle
says...
11:34pm Wed 30 Nov 11
It would be cheaper and better to build a new interchange station at the point where the Met line and Network Rail lines cross near Northwick Park.
Another possibility would be to tunnel the existing line onwards underneath Cassiobury Park to Watford Junction.
There are a whole raft of potential schemes that would be better and cheaper than the proposed Link.
John Howard Norfolk
says...
9:27am Thu 1 Dec 11
With public borrowing costs at a historic low (Bank Rate just 1/2%) this is the time to raise the capital needed though.
The most rose tinted view of this project would consider increased trade encouraged in Watford and reuse of the rail spur to Watford Met. But how could you possibly extract figures for these from a crystal ball?
thomas.howard
says...
11:19am Thu 1 Dec 11
What makes you think tunnelling under Cassiobury park would be cheaper than using an existing alignment? Crossrail C310, which consists of 3km of tunnel, was recently let for £225m, or £75m p/km. So assuming its 1.5k from Watford Met, to Watford junction you'd be looking at £112.5m before p-way, signalling, and station construction costs.
TRT
says...
11:46am Thu 1 Dec 11
John Dowdle
says...
11:48am Thu 1 Dec 11
I am not going to enter into voluminous correspondence on this idea, as it is highly unlikely it will happen, as - I believe - it is also highly unlikely the proposed Croxley Link will ever happen, once sensible people take an objective look at the actual finances.
mmmmmmnnnnnn
says...
1:41pm Thu 1 Dec 11
Ethelred the Unsteady
says...
1:50pm Thu 1 Dec 11
TRT
says...
2:06pm Thu 1 Dec 11
I know there are positive aspects and balances to the list below, but these are my thoughts on only the negative aspects of the Met closure:
(1) Passengers to the North-East of the station will have a longer walk.
(2) The percentage of Boy's Grammar pupils who used the station will have to additionally cross two major roads, with the extra interruption to road traffic flows this will entail.
(3) As Cassiobury residents are much more likely have access to motor vehicles, there's a good chance some will choose to drive once tube services stop.
(4) Cassiobury Park will see a drop in usage by people who travelled to Watford by the Met. This includes passing trade for the Cha Cha Cha Cafe and other local businesses.
(5) The already pitiful bus service that serves the Met. station & estate may be withdrawn altogether.
trumpcard
says...
4:17pm Thu 1 Dec 11
TRT
says...
4:24pm Thu 1 Dec 11
At Wiggenhall Road, the Croxley Line joins the London Overground line, so the opportunity to create a cycle corridor to the High St & Junction is simply not there. Note that the Ebury Way cycle path, part of the National Cycle Network, also begins roughly at that area, where the old Wiggenhall Road Croxley Depot once stood.
Lloydinio
says...
4:49pm Thu 1 Dec 11
scarecrow wrote:I go to that Local School!!!!!!!!!
Please reject it, far to close to local school !
Ethelred the Unsteady
says...
4:49pm Thu 1 Dec 11
(2) The percentage of Boy's Grammar pupils who used the station will have to additionally cross two major roads, with the extra interruption to road traffic flows this will entail.
(3) As Cassiobury residents are much more likely have access to motor vehicles, there's a good chance some will choose to drive once tube services stop.
(4) Cassiobury Park will see a drop in usage by people who travelled to Watford by the Met. This includes passing trade for the Cha Cha Cha Cafe and other local businesses.
(5) The already pitiful bus service that serves the Met. station & estate may be withdrawn altogether.”
I know you qualified your points at the beginning of your list but surely users of Watford General trump Grammar School Boys and The Ascot Road Business Park trumps the Cha Cha cafe, lovely as it is.
TRT
says...
5:00pm Thu 1 Dec 11
The decision of "who trumps who" is made on an economic basis. They did the maths (although as hopefully everyone knows the maths is kind of arbitrary and easily massaged for nefarious reasons - did you see the Panorama about PFI?) and decided that the alternatives proposed (which included both splitting the Met service between the existing station and the Junction and using the route as a dedicated busway run by e.g. Arriva) did not give the maximum economic benefit.
There are many other schemes possible of course, and in the end someone, somewhere will lose out to someone else's gain.
Anyway, may I counter your question with one of my own, which would be "Surely, in these times of financial contraction, not adding to the national debt trumps a scheme which will never make a profit?"
TRT
says...
5:07pm Thu 1 Dec 11
Although the line actually passes through the southern corner of the campus, they're not building the hospital station there!
Retlas
says...
5:19pm Thu 1 Dec 11
Hardly "quite a walk'' plus it's downhill on the way home — bonus!
Retlas
says...
5:19pm Thu 1 Dec 11
Hardly "quite a walk'' plus it's downhill on the way home — bonus!
Retlas
says...
5:21pm Thu 1 Dec 11
John Howard Norfolk
says...
5:58pm Thu 1 Dec 11
And yes ....it is a great site.
Well done WO for sponsoring such great debate!
TRT
says...
1:25pm Fri 2 Dec 11
John Dowdle
says...
3:55pm Fri 2 Dec 11
server.co.uk/news/93
97609.Decision_on_Cr
oxley_Rail_Link__due
_in_next_two_weeks_/
.
Any further comments should go there.
John Howard Norfolk
says...
4:37pm Fri 2 Dec 11
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drunkenduck says...
10:28am Sun 27 Nov 11