Lose weight - or your operation's cancelled

Watford Observer: Herts GPs told not to refer obese patients for surgery Herts GPs told not to refer obese patients for surgery

Overweight patients have been told to shift excess pounds before they are allowed operations such as hip and knee replacement, tonsil removal or gall bladder surgery.

It is hoped the new policy will result in patients being in a better state to recover following non-urgent procedures.

Today the Herts Valleys Clinical Commissioning Group held a conference about the scheme, which has been officially running since January 1.

Dr Nicolas Small, chairman of the group, said: “GPs in the area will not list patients for routine surgery until they have lost weight. There is a range of support, some from the GP surgery, or they can be sent to groups such as Rosemary Conley or Weight Watchers.”

Nationally, one in four adults is obese, and one in eight is severely overweight. Severely obese people can expect to die an average of eleven years earlier.

Now anybody with a body mass index of more than 35 will have to lost weight before they are eligible for non-urgent surgery.

A person of five feet and ten inches would need to be 17 stone and ten pounds to have a BMI of 35. A "healthy" BMI is between 20 and 25.

Dr Small said: “Surgery is more effective if people lose weight first and then surgery might not be needed at all. This is a trigger to help people lose weight.

“There is always a risk when patients are given an anaesthetic but there is strong clinical evidence that this risk is significantly higher when they are overweight.”

The group launched a similar scheme last year when overweight people wanting hip or knee surgery were told to lose weight before being listed.

An obese person is 15 times more likely to need a hip or knee operation and there were 5,000 of these replacements in West Hertfordshire last year.

Smokers will also have to agree to meet with a cessation advisor before being listed for surgery.

Rachel Joyce, consultant in public health, said: “Smoking and obesity are responsible for the vast majority of deaths in Hertfordshire.”

The Herts Valleys Clinical Commissioning Group, a consortium of GPs, will take over responsibility for buying health services when the country's Primary Care Trusts are scrapped in 2013. It covers about half of the county and will be responsible for Watford, Three Rivers and Hertsmere, as well as St Albans, Harpenden and Dacorum.

Dr Sheila Borkett-Jones, board member for Watford and Three Rivers, said: “It's a free country, but it's our job to inform people about living healthily.”

There is currently no plan to introduce a similar scheme for seriously underweight patients who are waiting for routine surgery.

Dr Borkett-Jones added: “We don't suffer from an epidemic of people who are underweight.”

Comments (53)

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5:51pm Mon 9 Jan 12

cameluk says...

If its a free country why would I have to see a smoking cessation advisor before having non related sugery?
If its a free country why would I have to see a smoking cessation advisor before having non related sugery? cameluk
  • Score: 0

5:57pm Mon 9 Jan 12

Toshhorn says...

I thought the Natinal health service was open to ALL.
I AM OBESE (ONLY HAPPENED OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS) AND HAVE PAID NATIONAL INSURANCE FOR OVER 35 YEARS. I CANNOT PHYSICALLY GO DOWN THE GYM ANY MORE BECAUSE OF ARTHRITIS IN MY BACK, NECK AND KNEES. I STILL GO TO WORK EVERY DAY AND PAY MY TAX AND NATIONAL INSURANCE, I played lots of sports up until my mid forties but now, no matter how much I diet and refrane from alcohol , I really struggle to keep my weight under 16 stone.
I thought the Natinal health service was open to ALL. I AM OBESE (ONLY HAPPENED OVER THE LAST 5 YEARS) AND HAVE PAID NATIONAL INSURANCE FOR OVER 35 YEARS. I CANNOT PHYSICALLY GO DOWN THE GYM ANY MORE BECAUSE OF ARTHRITIS IN MY BACK, NECK AND KNEES. I STILL GO TO WORK EVERY DAY AND PAY MY TAX AND NATIONAL INSURANCE, I played lots of sports up until my mid forties but now, no matter how much I diet and refrane from alcohol , I really struggle to keep my weight under 16 stone. Toshhorn
  • Score: 0

7:37pm Mon 9 Jan 12

LSC says...

So the bottom line is the NHS will only treat healthy people. Irony anyone?
I am not obese, but I am a smoker. A tax paying, law abiding smoker.
The NHS will treat the low-lifes who go out for a drink and a fight on the weekend. Picking a fight on a Saturday night and getting your nose broken is far more a deliberate choice than gradually gaining weight over 50 years.

Skateboarding is dangerous, but far easier to give up than smoking. So should we refuse skateboarders treatment? We all know falling off one can result in broken bones, and nobody HAS to use one, so what is the difference?
It is common knowledge that riding a motorbike is a lot more dangerous than driving a car, which in turn is more dangerous than just staying at home. Are we going to have a league table of such things?
Will I earn NHS 'points' and go to the front of the queue for my ruptured appendix because I can prove I had muesli for breakfast and have never tried Sky-diving?
Shameful.
The law of this land says I can spend my time juggling chainsaws if I want to. And if i cut my arm off doing so, I get an ambulance, not Big Brother telling me it was my own fault.
So the bottom line is the NHS will only treat healthy people. Irony anyone? I am not obese, but I am a smoker. A tax paying, law abiding smoker. The NHS will treat the low-lifes who go out for a drink and a fight on the weekend. Picking a fight on a Saturday night and getting your nose broken is far more a deliberate choice than gradually gaining weight over 50 years. Skateboarding is dangerous, but far easier to give up than smoking. So should we refuse skateboarders treatment? We all know falling off one can result in broken bones, and nobody HAS to use one, so what is the difference? It is common knowledge that riding a motorbike is a lot more dangerous than driving a car, which in turn is more dangerous than just staying at home. Are we going to have a league table of such things? Will I earn NHS 'points' and go to the front of the queue for my ruptured appendix because I can prove I had muesli for breakfast and have never tried Sky-diving? Shameful. The law of this land says I can spend my time juggling chainsaws if I want to. And if i cut my arm off doing so, I get an ambulance, not Big Brother telling me it was my own fault. LSC
  • Score: 0

9:01pm Mon 9 Jan 12

Hornets number 12 fan says...

Just how are people needing hip or knee transplants supposed to lose weight? It's ok advising people of healthy living but to discriminate against people who they see as outside the regular healthy patient is morally WRONG Like someone else said they paid for the service through their taxes and are now being denied treatment!!! It is not doctors job to make judgements of their patients but to TREAT them
Just how are people needing hip or knee transplants supposed to lose weight? It's ok advising people of healthy living but to discriminate against people who they see as outside the regular healthy patient is morally WRONG Like someone else said they paid for the service through their taxes and are now being denied treatment!!! It is not doctors job to make judgements of their patients but to TREAT them Hornets number 12 fan
  • Score: 0

9:55pm Mon 9 Jan 12

onlyonerodthomas says...

so what about layabout non tax paying drug addicts?will they still get their methodone hits and clean needles even though they have no intentions of quitting hard core drugs?course they will.it could only happen in this country to punish the tax paying average man whos only crime is to(legally)drink a few pints a week and over indulge slightly.
so what about layabout non tax paying drug addicts?will they still get their methodone hits and clean needles even though they have no intentions of quitting hard core drugs?course they will.it could only happen in this country to punish the tax paying average man whos only crime is to(legally)drink a few pints a week and over indulge slightly. onlyonerodthomas
  • Score: 0

10:02pm Mon 9 Jan 12

WatfordAlex says...

Seems sensible enough. There is a limited supply of surgery places and too much demand (partly due to the obesity epidemic). If you have to ration the supply of surgery places, then it makes sense to give them to people who are demonstrating that they are doing something to make themselves better. Anyway, the unhealthy people will still get surgery, but they will just have to wait longer (it is non-emergency surgery after all). The skateboarding anecdote is a red herring - you can go skateboarding and not injure yourself. However, smoking or eating mountains of calorific food will make you less healthy full stop.
Seems sensible enough. There is a limited supply of surgery places and too much demand (partly due to the obesity epidemic). If you have to ration the supply of surgery places, then it makes sense to give them to people who are demonstrating that they are doing something to make themselves better. Anyway, the unhealthy people will still get surgery, but they will just have to wait longer (it is non-emergency surgery after all). The skateboarding anecdote is a red herring - you can go skateboarding and not injure yourself. However, smoking or eating mountains of calorific food will make you less healthy full stop. WatfordAlex
  • Score: 0

11:19pm Mon 9 Jan 12

Hornets number 12 fan says...

WatfordAlex wrote:
Seems sensible enough. There is a limited supply of surgery places and too much demand (partly due to the obesity epidemic). If you have to ration the supply of surgery places, then it makes sense to give them to people who are demonstrating that they are doing something to make themselves better. Anyway, the unhealthy people will still get surgery, but they will just have to wait longer (it is non-emergency surgery after all). The skateboarding anecdote is a red herring - you can go skateboarding and not injure yourself. However, smoking or eating mountains of calorific food will make you less healthy full stop.
And that was a party political briadcast on behalf of the I'm alright Jack party!
[quote][p][bold]WatfordAlex[/bold] wrote: Seems sensible enough. There is a limited supply of surgery places and too much demand (partly due to the obesity epidemic). If you have to ration the supply of surgery places, then it makes sense to give them to people who are demonstrating that they are doing something to make themselves better. Anyway, the unhealthy people will still get surgery, but they will just have to wait longer (it is non-emergency surgery after all). The skateboarding anecdote is a red herring - you can go skateboarding and not injure yourself. However, smoking or eating mountains of calorific food will make you less healthy full stop.[/p][/quote]And that was a party political briadcast on behalf of the I'm alright Jack party! Hornets number 12 fan
  • Score: 0

9:22am Tue 10 Jan 12

Toshhorn says...

So as I said to my wife, when I am feeling ill, there is no point going to the doctors, as all I will get is a lecture about being fat and sent away.
She always tries to get me to the doctor, but what's the point? they will only treat us obese people as and when we become urgent cases.
Sorry to be such a burden, but I honestly can't understand why I can't be treated.Message to all fat people, stay away from the doctors, they don't want to treat you, nice message.
So as I said to my wife, when I am feeling ill, there is no point going to the doctors, as all I will get is a lecture about being fat and sent away. She always tries to get me to the doctor, but what's the point? they will only treat us obese people as and when we become urgent cases. Sorry to be such a burden, but I honestly can't understand why I can't be treated.Message to all fat people, stay away from the doctors, they don't want to treat you, nice message. Toshhorn
  • Score: 0

9:47am Tue 10 Jan 12

phall lover says...

Go to weight watchers. It works and you dont have to get off your fat ar*e.
Im doing it .And avoid Iceland.
Go to weight watchers. It works and you dont have to get off your fat ar*e. Im doing it .And avoid Iceland. phall lover
  • Score: 0

2:37pm Tue 10 Jan 12

garston tony says...

Every one seems to have ignored the second paragraph. Asking people to lose weight will most likely help with their recovery. This is followed a few paragraphs later with 'surgery is more effective if people lose weight and then surgery may not be needed at all', this immediately followed by 'risk is significantly higher (of being given an anaesthetic) when they are overweight'.

This is entirely about the health and wellfare of the patient, either because the operation and recover is possibly going to go better or because the need for an operation may go away.
Every one seems to have ignored the second paragraph. Asking people to lose weight will most likely help with their recovery. This is followed a few paragraphs later with 'surgery is more effective if people lose weight and then surgery may not be needed at all', this immediately followed by 'risk is significantly higher (of being given an anaesthetic) when they are overweight'. This is entirely about the health and wellfare of the patient, either because the operation and recover is possibly going to go better or because the need for an operation may go away. garston tony
  • Score: 0

2:38pm Tue 10 Jan 12

garston tony says...

As to people saying they have paid taxes over the years so are entitled to operations etc. that is true, but considering the costs involved chances are any care (if you include not just the operation but from initial contact to recovery and onwards) is likely to cost far more than anything contributed by the individual over the years.

So to take cameluk's comment, it is a free country and as a tax payer I am entitled to ask that my taxes are not wasted on avoidable proceedures and care or on people who continue in the lifestyle that got them into health difficulties in the first place!
As to people saying they have paid taxes over the years so are entitled to operations etc. that is true, but considering the costs involved chances are any care (if you include not just the operation but from initial contact to recovery and onwards) is likely to cost far more than anything contributed by the individual over the years. So to take cameluk's comment, it is a free country and as a tax payer I am entitled to ask that my taxes are not wasted on avoidable proceedures and care or on people who continue in the lifestyle that got them into health difficulties in the first place! garston tony
  • Score: 0

4:28pm Tue 10 Jan 12

Reader (R) says...

The NHS is a bit like a bank account, if you don't make a deposit you can't make a withdrawal. The real problem with the NHS is that we have far too many people who have made little or no deposits but have availed themselves of the withdrawal facility.
The NHS is a bit like a bank account, if you don't make a deposit you can't make a withdrawal. The real problem with the NHS is that we have far too many people who have made little or no deposits but have availed themselves of the withdrawal facility. Reader (R)
  • Score: 0

2:15pm Wed 11 Jan 12

garston tony says...

Reader, you could add to that the NHS providing unecessary services (i'm glad for one that women who got those PIP implants through private firms are not going to automatically get them removed on the NHS) and dealing with preventable ilnness including amongst many other things smoking related disease, drug addicts, yes overweight people and drunks wasting their time most nights of the week now (amongst many other things)
Reader, you could add to that the NHS providing unecessary services (i'm glad for one that women who got those PIP implants through private firms are not going to automatically get them removed on the NHS) and dealing with preventable ilnness including amongst many other things smoking related disease, drug addicts, yes overweight people and drunks wasting their time most nights of the week now (amongst many other things) garston tony
  • Score: 0

5:53pm Wed 11 Jan 12

WFTTWTFR says...

I seriously believe that the NHS is unsustainable in it's current form and cannot continue to provide the range of services that it does to a larger and increasingly ageing and unhealthy population. However, this is moving into piecemeal rationing of services at a local level based on pretty predictable critera. What is needed is a more fundamental review - broader healthcare insurance provision might be the only viable way forward if bodies like the Herts GPs start arbitarily refusing to treat people. On the other hand, that brings into play precisely the "league table" issue that's been referred to.

However, that's a wider debate. What gets me about this article is the patronising and sanctimonious tone that we've come to expect from doctors, e.g. "it's our job to inform people about living healthily". Well, no, actually, it's your job to justify your six-figure salaries by treating people. Eat a balanced diet, don't smoke, don't drink too much, take exercise - we get it, not sure a "cessation advisor" will add much.

And just to restate the point that others have already made, the chances of an obese person who is 15 times more likely to need a hip or knee operation losing weight looks a bit remote given exercise issues. If you're in that position, best move counties.
I seriously believe that the NHS is unsustainable in it's current form and cannot continue to provide the range of services that it does to a larger and increasingly ageing and unhealthy population. However, this is moving into piecemeal rationing of services at a local level based on pretty predictable critera. What is needed is a more fundamental review - broader healthcare insurance provision might be the only viable way forward if bodies like the Herts GPs start arbitarily refusing to treat people. On the other hand, that brings into play precisely the "league table" issue that's been referred to. However, that's a wider debate. What gets me about this article is the patronising and sanctimonious tone that we've come to expect from doctors, e.g. "it's our job to inform people about living healthily". Well, no, actually, it's your job to justify your six-figure salaries by treating people. Eat a balanced diet, don't smoke, don't drink too much, take exercise - we get it, not sure a "cessation advisor" will add much. And just to restate the point that others have already made, the chances of an obese person who is 15 times more likely to need a hip or knee operation losing weight looks a bit remote given exercise issues. If you're in that position, best move counties. WFTTWTFR
  • Score: 0

11:51pm Wed 11 Jan 12

LSC says...

Just to play devils advocate here.
We all know that it is a bad idea for a young girl to be out alone at 3am, in a dark place, in a short skirt and silly shoes.
We know that is a bad idea. She knows it is a bad idea. She has been told by Mum, Dad, freinds, everyone. But she did it anyway, and then she got attacked.
Hands up who thinks the police would be right to say that because she didn't follow the obvious guidlines they are not going to bother investigating the case?
Just to play devils advocate here. We all know that it is a bad idea for a young girl to be out alone at 3am, in a dark place, in a short skirt and silly shoes. We know that is a bad idea. She knows it is a bad idea. She has been told by Mum, Dad, freinds, everyone. But she did it anyway, and then she got attacked. Hands up who thinks the police would be right to say that because she didn't follow the obvious guidlines they are not going to bother investigating the case? LSC
  • Score: 0

10:56am Thu 12 Jan 12

stuegs says...

Ridiculous example LSC. By that example you are suggesting that being fat is someone elses fault.

Obesity and smoking are two of the biggest drains on the NHS and are both self inflicted. So its about time the NHS used some sort of incentive to force people to help themselves.

They re not going to refuse giving urgent life saving treatment, so this is a perfect comprimise.

Its about time people stop making excuses for fat people. It is their fault they are fat, nothing else. They eat too much and dont do enough exercise, simple. Its about time being fat became as socially unacceptable as smoking.
Ridiculous example LSC. By that example you are suggesting that being fat is someone elses fault. Obesity and smoking are two of the biggest drains on the NHS and are both self inflicted. So its about time the NHS used some sort of incentive to force people to help themselves. They re not going to refuse giving urgent life saving treatment, so this is a perfect comprimise. Its about time people stop making excuses for fat people. It is their fault they are fat, nothing else. They eat too much and dont do enough exercise, simple. Its about time being fat became as socially unacceptable as smoking. stuegs
  • Score: 0

12:27pm Thu 12 Jan 12

AbbieSlimmingWorld says...

I just wanted to endorse some of the comments made in this article regarding the dangers of obesity and the benefits to patients of weight loss before they undergo surgery..

In our groups in Radlett, we find that most members have joined because of health-related issues and have had incredible success with reducing medication and even curing themselves of diabetes in some instances. Many have gone on to become physically active - even running marathons...

Our Slimming World Food plan is not a "Diet" but a healthy eating plan for life, and our groups give the most incredible support, not surprising then that local GP's are supportive of what we offer local patients. If all local residents were able to lose weight, our NHS would reduce some of the burden on its resources today and we would have a happier, healthier society.

Abbie, Slimming World Radlett,
Thursdays 5.30/7.30 Radlett Village Institute. Call 07917 794716
I just wanted to endorse some of the comments made in this article regarding the dangers of obesity and the benefits to patients of weight loss before they undergo surgery.. In our groups in Radlett, we find that most members have joined because of health-related issues and have had incredible success with reducing medication and even curing themselves of diabetes in some instances. Many have gone on to become physically active - even running marathons... Our Slimming World Food plan is not a "Diet" but a healthy eating plan for life, and our groups give the most incredible support, not surprising then that local GP's are supportive of what we offer local patients. If all local residents were able to lose weight, our NHS would reduce some of the burden on its resources today and we would have a happier, healthier society. Abbie, Slimming World Radlett, Thursdays 5.30/7.30 Radlett Village Institute. Call 07917 794716 AbbieSlimmingWorld
  • Score: -1

2:12pm Thu 12 Jan 12

Toshhorn says...

I was always slim and sporty until arthritis and stiff joints kicked in,
I stopped smoking (ten years ago), put on the weight (I'm now just under 17st , 5ft11 ins tall and the Doctor said I was obese)and now can't excercise because of the above,
Constant knee, back and neck pain is driving me mad, but I still go to work everyday.
It's not nice struggling in this way and now there is no point me visiting a doctor for anything, because I am fat.
To all those in good health out there, look after yourselves.
To all us fatties, if you can't lose the weight, tough, just go away, nice caring people, I give up.
You can't be racist,sexist or ageist but it's ok to hate the fat people.
I was always slim and sporty until arthritis and stiff joints kicked in, I stopped smoking (ten years ago), put on the weight (I'm now just under 17st , 5ft11 ins tall and the Doctor said I was obese)and now can't excercise because of the above, Constant knee, back and neck pain is driving me mad, but I still go to work everyday. It's not nice struggling in this way and now there is no point me visiting a doctor for anything, because I am fat. To all those in good health out there, look after yourselves. To all us fatties, if you can't lose the weight, tough, just go away, nice caring people, I give up. You can't be racist,sexist or ageist but it's ok to hate the fat people. Toshhorn
  • Score: 0

2:42pm Thu 12 Jan 12

stuegs says...

Toshhorn, why are fat people fat? Bad diet, too many calories. No one forces fat people to lots of food. Its really not rocket science. So many fat people act like they suddenly woke up one morning and had gained 5 stone in their sleep, through no fault of their own.

Same for smokers. If you smoke you might get lung cancer, amoungst other things. No one forces people to smoke, its a choice they have made.

Same old stuff, people really should start taking responsibilities for their actions
Toshhorn, why are fat people fat? Bad diet, too many calories. No one forces fat people to lots of food. Its really not rocket science. So many fat people act like they suddenly woke up one morning and had gained 5 stone in their sleep, through no fault of their own. Same for smokers. If you smoke you might get lung cancer, amoungst other things. No one forces people to smoke, its a choice they have made. Same old stuff, people really should start taking responsibilities for their actions stuegs
  • Score: 0

4:23pm Thu 12 Jan 12

Toshhorn says...

Wait till you can't excercise, then you'll understand why the weight piles on trust me. I bet I don't eat any more than you
Wait till you can't excercise, then you'll understand why the weight piles on trust me. I bet I don't eat any more than you Toshhorn
  • Score: 0

10:14am Fri 13 Jan 12

Herts GP says...

This decision is not supported by all Hertfordshire GPs. There is no evidence that hip and knee surgery outcomes are worse for overweight people. In fact, the hospital stay rate is the same as is the complication rate.

In my opinion, we (the NHS) should not be penalising citizens who suffer an addiction like smoking. The debate on rationing operations in this way has been held over many years. A significant number of healthcare professionals (HCPs) do not condone witholding limb saving/life saving surgery from people who smoke.

Life is a lottery however you look at it. The imposition of rationing using measurable data should not be celebrated. Rather, we should be asking why there is not enough money and resources to treat all who need help.
This decision is not supported by all Hertfordshire GPs. There is no evidence that hip and knee surgery outcomes are worse for overweight people. In fact, the hospital stay rate is the same as is the complication rate. In my opinion, we (the NHS) should not be penalising citizens who suffer an addiction like smoking. The debate on rationing operations in this way has been held over many years. A significant number of healthcare professionals (HCPs) do not condone witholding limb saving/life saving surgery from people who smoke. Life is a lottery however you look at it. The imposition of rationing using measurable data should not be celebrated. Rather, we should be asking why there is not enough money and resources to treat all who need help. Herts GP
  • Score: 1

12:05pm Fri 13 Jan 12

garston tony says...

HERTS GP, I dont think life saving treatment should be witheld but ultimately what is the point of treatment if the patient is just going to carry on with the habits which caused the problem/illness in the first place?

Surely it is right that the NHS focuses on prevention and such advise like this is along those lines. Not only does prevention save the NHS money in terms of having less to treat but more importantly it improves quality of life and indeed saves lives.

Is it something like 100,000 people die each year from smoking related illness and 30000 from illness related to being obese?

Im no medical expert but if someones illness can be improved by a change of diet and habit that must be better than surgery and a potential life time on pills?

And Toshorn I accept for some people their weight is something to a certain extent that is out of their control. But for many many many people it isnt, and neither is smoking, drinking and taking illegal drugs
HERTS GP, I dont think life saving treatment should be witheld but ultimately what is the point of treatment if the patient is just going to carry on with the habits which caused the problem/illness in the first place? Surely it is right that the NHS focuses on prevention and such advise like this is along those lines. Not only does prevention save the NHS money in terms of having less to treat but more importantly it improves quality of life and indeed saves lives. Is it something like 100,000 people die each year from smoking related illness and 30000 from illness related to being obese? Im no medical expert but if someones illness can be improved by a change of diet and habit that must be better than surgery and a potential life time on pills? And Toshorn I accept for some people their weight is something to a certain extent that is out of their control. But for many many many people it isnt, and neither is smoking, drinking and taking illegal drugs garston tony
  • Score: 0

2:36pm Fri 13 Jan 12

LSC says...

Smoking and over-eating are perfectly legal, and yet this proposal suggests they will get secondary care to a Heroin addict! Surely that cannot be right? My limited knowledge of class A drugs suggests that a body is completely wrecked by them, adding complications and slowing recovery.
If having a high BMI or smoking were illegal, I could begin to see the logic of this whole thing.
Surely a professional boxer, whose whole job requires being repeatedly hit very hard in the head should be put 'down the list' for NHS treatment too?
What about firemen, who keep running into burning buildings. They chose the job, knowing the risks, should they be secondary as well?
The whole thing in a free country is madness. If they ban smoking, then they can refuse me treatment for smoking related problems should I continue illegaly. But to take my duty on the cigs, my income tax and National Insurance then give me inferior service is simply morally wrong.
Smoking and over-eating are perfectly legal, and yet this proposal suggests they will get secondary care to a Heroin addict! Surely that cannot be right? My limited knowledge of class A drugs suggests that a body is completely wrecked by them, adding complications and slowing recovery. If having a high BMI or smoking were illegal, I could begin to see the logic of this whole thing. Surely a professional boxer, whose whole job requires being repeatedly hit very hard in the head should be put 'down the list' for NHS treatment too? What about firemen, who keep running into burning buildings. They chose the job, knowing the risks, should they be secondary as well? The whole thing in a free country is madness. If they ban smoking, then they can refuse me treatment for smoking related problems should I continue illegaly. But to take my duty on the cigs, my income tax and National Insurance then give me inferior service is simply morally wrong. LSC
  • Score: 0

3:58pm Fri 13 Jan 12

comments says...

I know its unfair on anyone who is a tax payer and has worked/paid NI etc etc
However with the exception of obese people who have knee/hip problems...
it might actually be a good thing....It might push people to get healthy and stay healthy! ...
I know its unfair on anyone who is a tax payer and has worked/paid NI etc etc However with the exception of obese people who have knee/hip problems... it might actually be a good thing....It might push people to get healthy and stay healthy! ... comments
  • Score: 0

3:59pm Fri 13 Jan 12

comments says...

btw - dont forget this is for non urgent surgery....
btw - dont forget this is for non urgent surgery.... comments
  • Score: 0

6:53pm Fri 13 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Has it not occurred to anyone, especially these so-called health experts (whom I call health fascists and nannying busybodies), that by constantly bullying people about their health we are actually building up enormous problems for future generations?

Already a great many people are living to be 100 and over, far more people are being told they will have to work until they are 75 before they will get a pension and far, far more people will need constant and expensive care when they get into their 80s and 90s?

The cost to the NHS of all this encouraging people to live more healthily and live longer will, in the longer term, actually cost a vast amount more than it is costing now in treating the consequences of smoking, drinking and obesity.

In the past our population was kept roughly in balance because as many people died as were born. The balance today has been completely reversed and the population is zooming as a result.

Might it not be better in the long run to allow people to choose to eat, smoke and drink themselves to death as they always did?
Has it not occurred to anyone, especially these so-called health experts (whom I call health fascists and nannying busybodies), that by constantly bullying people about their health we are actually building up enormous problems for future generations? Already a great many people are living to be 100 and over, far more people are being told they will have to work until they are 75 before they will get a pension and far, far more people will need constant and expensive care when they get into their 80s and 90s? The cost to the NHS of all this encouraging people to live more healthily and live longer will, in the longer term, actually cost a vast amount more than it is costing now in treating the consequences of smoking, drinking and obesity. In the past our population was kept roughly in balance because as many people died as were born. The balance today has been completely reversed and the population is zooming as a result. Might it not be better in the long run to allow people to choose to eat, smoke and drink themselves to death as they always did? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

10:01pm Fri 13 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

I would like to add that on Wednesday of this week I attended the funeral and wake at Fulham of one of my oldest friends and colleagues, Sue Carroll, with whom I worked for a number of years on the News of the World. Sue became a columnist on the Sun and then the Daily Mirror, where she wrote a controversial weekly column for 13 years. Reports of her obituary and funeral are easily found online and many tributes have been paid to her.

Sue was like me, totally non-PC. She smoked (which I actually do not), drank wine and champagne as if it was going out of existence (which I do) and ate red meat (which I also do). She loathed health fascists who wanted to tell her what to do! She ignored them, as I do, and died at 58 of pancreatic cancer, which has little to do with lifestyle because in her case it was probably hereditary since her father died of it also.

Several hundred of we tabloid hacks had a wonderful time (along with a few famous celebs) remembering her, had a lot of laughter and a few tears, a lot to drink, and we all left the church and her wake feeling better. She was described in an address by the Daily Mirror editor as a "cross between Rita Hayworth and Elsie Tanner". Sue was a gorgeous, feisty, fighting female journalist, a Geordie from Newcastle, who emphasised all the best (and probably the worst) in my former profession. She was glamorous, exotic, extravagant and funny and much loved. Yes, she died at only 58 but she had a far, far more interesting lifestyle than boring little nobodies who live to be 90 and more but spent all their lives working in a town hall or bank or building society. She loved every minute of it, as I have done of mine.

Which would you rather be? I know what the health fascists would say but I also know which I would rather be! If I fell under a bus tomorrow I would say that I've had a great life, travelling the world, meeting lots of famous people and getting drunk in bars from Manchester and Madrid to Manhattan and San Francisco! How many can say that? But if they have their way, the health fascists and nanny state busybodies don't want you to do that
because it upsets them too much and causes them too much work.

Sod them, I say!
I would like to add that on Wednesday of this week I attended the funeral and wake at Fulham of one of my oldest friends and colleagues, Sue Carroll, with whom I worked for a number of years on the News of the World. Sue became a columnist on the Sun and then the Daily Mirror, where she wrote a controversial weekly column for 13 years. Reports of her obituary and funeral are easily found online and many tributes have been paid to her. Sue was like me, totally non-PC. She smoked (which I actually do not), drank wine and champagne as if it was going out of existence (which I do) and ate red meat (which I also do). She loathed health fascists who wanted to tell her what to do! She ignored them, as I do, and died at 58 of pancreatic cancer, which has little to do with lifestyle because in her case it was probably hereditary since her father died of it also. Several hundred of we tabloid hacks had a wonderful time (along with a few famous celebs) remembering her, had a lot of laughter and a few tears, a lot to drink, and we all left the church and her wake feeling better. She was described in an address by the Daily Mirror editor as a "cross between Rita Hayworth and Elsie Tanner". Sue was a gorgeous, feisty, fighting female journalist, a Geordie from Newcastle, who emphasised all the best (and probably the worst) in my former profession. She was glamorous, exotic, extravagant and funny and much loved. Yes, she died at only 58 but she had a far, far more interesting lifestyle than boring little nobodies who live to be 90 and more but spent all their lives working in a town hall or bank or building society. She loved every minute of it, as I have done of mine. Which would you rather be? I know what the health fascists would say but I also know which I would rather be! If I fell under a bus tomorrow I would say that I've had a great life, travelling the world, meeting lots of famous people and getting drunk in bars from Manchester and Madrid to Manhattan and San Francisco! How many can say that? But if they have their way, the health fascists and nanny state busybodies don't want you to do that because it upsets them too much and causes them too much work. Sod them, I say! Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

10:15am Mon 16 Jan 12

Hornets number 12 fan says...

Toshhorn wrote:
I was always slim and sporty until arthritis and stiff joints kicked in,
I stopped smoking (ten years ago), put on the weight (I'm now just under 17st , 5ft11 ins tall and the Doctor said I was obese)and now can't excercise because of the above,
Constant knee, back and neck pain is driving me mad, but I still go to work everyday.
It's not nice struggling in this way and now there is no point me visiting a doctor for anything, because I am fat.
To all those in good health out there, look after yourselves.
To all us fatties, if you can't lose the weight, tough, just go away, nice caring people, I give up.
You can't be racist,sexist or ageist but it's ok to hate the fat people.
Exactly! Fatness is not always the fault of the patient. Prescription drugs can cause weight gain and as you said having mobility problems due to arthritis can cause it too. People ALWAYS assume fat people are crisp munching,fast food hoovers!
This is just not the case. People just blindly listen to Government spin and they take it all in then join the witch hunt of the group pf people concerned!
[quote][p][bold]Toshhorn[/bold] wrote: I was always slim and sporty until arthritis and stiff joints kicked in, I stopped smoking (ten years ago), put on the weight (I'm now just under 17st , 5ft11 ins tall and the Doctor said I was obese)and now can't excercise because of the above, Constant knee, back and neck pain is driving me mad, but I still go to work everyday. It's not nice struggling in this way and now there is no point me visiting a doctor for anything, because I am fat. To all those in good health out there, look after yourselves. To all us fatties, if you can't lose the weight, tough, just go away, nice caring people, I give up. You can't be racist,sexist or ageist but it's ok to hate the fat people.[/p][/quote]Exactly! Fatness is not always the fault of the patient. Prescription drugs can cause weight gain and as you said having mobility problems due to arthritis can cause it too. People ALWAYS assume fat people are crisp munching,fast food hoovers! This is just not the case. People just blindly listen to Government spin and they take it all in then join the witch hunt of the group pf people concerned! Hornets number 12 fan
  • Score: 0

10:20am Mon 16 Jan 12

Hornets number 12 fan says...

Roy Stockdill wrote:
I would like to add that on Wednesday of this week I attended the funeral and wake at Fulham of one of my oldest friends and colleagues, Sue Carroll, with whom I worked for a number of years on the News of the World. Sue became a columnist on the Sun and then the Daily Mirror, where she wrote a controversial weekly column for 13 years. Reports of her obituary and funeral are easily found online and many tributes have been paid to her.

Sue was like me, totally non-PC. She smoked (which I actually do not), drank wine and champagne as if it was going out of existence (which I do) and ate red meat (which I also do). She loathed health fascists who wanted to tell her what to do! She ignored them, as I do, and died at 58 of pancreatic cancer, which has little to do with lifestyle because in her case it was probably hereditary since her father died of it also.

Several hundred of we tabloid hacks had a wonderful time (along with a few famous celebs) remembering her, had a lot of laughter and a few tears, a lot to drink, and we all left the church and her wake feeling better. She was described in an address by the Daily Mirror editor as a "cross between Rita Hayworth and Elsie Tanner". Sue was a gorgeous, feisty, fighting female journalist, a Geordie from Newcastle, who emphasised all the best (and probably the worst) in my former profession. She was glamorous, exotic, extravagant and funny and much loved. Yes, she died at only 58 but she had a far, far more interesting lifestyle than boring little nobodies who live to be 90 and more but spent all their lives working in a town hall or bank or building society. She loved every minute of it, as I have done of mine.

Which would you rather be? I know what the health fascists would say but I also know which I would rather be! If I fell under a bus tomorrow I would say that I've had a great life, travelling the world, meeting lots of famous people and getting drunk in bars from Manchester and Madrid to Manhattan and San Francisco! How many can say that? But if they have their way, the health fascists and nanny state busybodies don't want you to do that
because it upsets them too much and causes them too much work.

Sod them, I say!
Hear hear Roy! Bloody Nanny state gets right up my hooter
[quote][p][bold]Roy Stockdill[/bold] wrote: I would like to add that on Wednesday of this week I attended the funeral and wake at Fulham of one of my oldest friends and colleagues, Sue Carroll, with whom I worked for a number of years on the News of the World. Sue became a columnist on the Sun and then the Daily Mirror, where she wrote a controversial weekly column for 13 years. Reports of her obituary and funeral are easily found online and many tributes have been paid to her. Sue was like me, totally non-PC. She smoked (which I actually do not), drank wine and champagne as if it was going out of existence (which I do) and ate red meat (which I also do). She loathed health fascists who wanted to tell her what to do! She ignored them, as I do, and died at 58 of pancreatic cancer, which has little to do with lifestyle because in her case it was probably hereditary since her father died of it also. Several hundred of we tabloid hacks had a wonderful time (along with a few famous celebs) remembering her, had a lot of laughter and a few tears, a lot to drink, and we all left the church and her wake feeling better. She was described in an address by the Daily Mirror editor as a "cross between Rita Hayworth and Elsie Tanner". Sue was a gorgeous, feisty, fighting female journalist, a Geordie from Newcastle, who emphasised all the best (and probably the worst) in my former profession. She was glamorous, exotic, extravagant and funny and much loved. Yes, she died at only 58 but she had a far, far more interesting lifestyle than boring little nobodies who live to be 90 and more but spent all their lives working in a town hall or bank or building society. She loved every minute of it, as I have done of mine. Which would you rather be? I know what the health fascists would say but I also know which I would rather be! If I fell under a bus tomorrow I would say that I've had a great life, travelling the world, meeting lots of famous people and getting drunk in bars from Manchester and Madrid to Manhattan and San Francisco! How many can say that? But if they have their way, the health fascists and nanny state busybodies don't want you to do that because it upsets them too much and causes them too much work. Sod them, I say![/p][/quote]Hear hear Roy! Bloody Nanny state gets right up my hooter Hornets number 12 fan
  • Score: 0

4:12pm Mon 16 Jan 12

Turvey Tortie says...

Maybe we who have paid mightlily and frankly quietly into the scheme with little return should now tell these guys to stop giving attention to non payers, recent immigrants, peopel with sports injuries (self inflicted) alcoholics, drug related issues et al then we who have uncomplainingly paid obese or otherwise can get on with benefitting from a service we paid for.
Altenatively return to a service for all.
Such selection is the thin edge of the wedge the list above will follow bit by bit you see.

Me? I don't live in Herts so currently not my problem! But you do have my sympathy
Maybe we who have paid mightlily and frankly quietly into the scheme with little return should now tell these guys to stop giving attention to non payers, recent immigrants, peopel with sports injuries (self inflicted) alcoholics, drug related issues et al then we who have uncomplainingly paid obese or otherwise can get on with benefitting from a service we paid for. Altenatively return to a service for all. Such selection is the thin edge of the wedge the list above will follow bit by bit you see. Me? I don't live in Herts so currently not my problem! But you do have my sympathy Turvey Tortie
  • Score: 0

4:14pm Mon 16 Jan 12

Turvey Tortie says...

Perhaps they should also exclude all health professionals who appear to have a vested interest in the same way employees can not enter competitions in newspapers etc!
Perhaps they should also exclude all health professionals who appear to have a vested interest in the same way employees can not enter competitions in newspapers etc! Turvey Tortie
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Mon 16 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

From what I have read in the press, all health professionals are being told they must quiz people about their lifestyles, i.e. whether they smoke, how much they drink, what they eat and whether they exercise etc, even if patients only go to their doctor for something as simple as a flu jab.

Well, anyone who starts asking me those impertinent questions that have little relation to what I am at the surgery for is going to get a very short and sharp reply because this is the bullying nanny state in full cry!

I have already exercised my right to opt out of the national database of ALL medical records that the NHS is attempting to build up because it seemed to me the thin end of the wedge. Make no mistake, whatever shade of government is in power, whether Left, Right or Coalition, the powers-that-be are determined to try and gather as much information as they possibly can on all private citizens. We should fight it all the way down the line because the nanny state is also a totalitarian state.
From what I have read in the press, all health professionals are being told they must quiz people about their lifestyles, i.e. whether they smoke, how much they drink, what they eat and whether they exercise etc, even if patients only go to their doctor for something as simple as a flu jab. Well, anyone who starts asking me those impertinent questions that have little relation to what I am at the surgery for is going to get a very short and sharp reply because this is the bullying nanny state in full cry! I have already exercised my right to opt out of the national database of ALL medical records that the NHS is attempting to build up because it seemed to me the thin end of the wedge. Make no mistake, whatever shade of government is in power, whether Left, Right or Coalition, the powers-that-be are determined to try and gather as much information as they possibly can on all private citizens. We should fight it all the way down the line because the nanny state is also a totalitarian state. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 1

8:19am Tue 17 Jan 12

JonBoy says...

does this policy discriminate against the disabled?
does this policy discriminate against the disabled? JonBoy
  • Score: 1

11:14am Tue 17 Jan 12

The Rover says...

JonBoy wrote:
does this policy discriminate against the disabled?
Only the fat disabled!
[quote][p][bold]JonBoy[/bold] wrote: does this policy discriminate against the disabled?[/p][/quote]Only the fat disabled! The Rover
  • Score: 0

11:35am Tue 17 Jan 12

garston tony says...

Im sure Sue Carroll had led an interesting life Roy, but I wonder if given the opportunity she would have liked to go back in time and maybe change a habit or two that may have enabled her to live longer?

By the same token Roy there are many people in their 80's and 90's who have lived extremely interesting lives and who still have their faculties about them and are still mobile.

If people choose to ignore health advise that is of course their own choice however as with many things why should their choice mean a cost burden to the rest of us?
Im sure Sue Carroll had led an interesting life Roy, but I wonder if given the opportunity she would have liked to go back in time and maybe change a habit or two that may have enabled her to live longer? By the same token Roy there are many people in their 80's and 90's who have lived extremely interesting lives and who still have their faculties about them and are still mobile. If people choose to ignore health advise that is of course their own choice however as with many things why should their choice mean a cost burden to the rest of us? garston tony
  • Score: 0

12:31pm Tue 17 Jan 12

stuegs says...

I honestly cannot see why this is a debate??

Surely, its common sense that those who ignore health advice should be further down the list when it comes to non urgent treatment.
I honestly cannot see why this is a debate?? Surely, its common sense that those who ignore health advice should be further down the list when it comes to non urgent treatment. stuegs
  • Score: 0

4:10pm Tue 17 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

One reason is that some of the advice issued by so-called health professionals is either patronising, bullying or plain WRONG! Doctors and nurses especially seem to patronise older patients and treat them as children on the assumption that when we reach a certain age we all go gaga and start drooling at the mouth. Well, I won't stand for that and tell them so in no uncertain terms, and they don't usually like it when you take them on!

For just one example, we keep reading that the maximum number of alcohol units that should be consumed in a week is 21 for men and 14 for women. Who says so? Some committee somewhere? Why exactly 21, why not 20 or 22, 23 or 24? Does someone simply pluck these figures out of thin air? I was told this fact some time ago by a very bossy diabetic nurse and I asked her to explain where the figures came from. She couldn't, simply muttering something about them being "the laid-down guidelines". But who laid them down, I asked? She couldn't answer me. I pointed out to her that this one-fits-all rule is nonsense because it fails to take into account one vital factor, i.e. everybody has a different tolerance level to alcohol.

So-called health professionals, it seems to me, fail to take into account that every patient is different and has different needs and tolerance levels. However, this is too much bother for them - much simpler to lay down inflexible rules and treat everybody exactly the same.
One reason is that some of the advice issued by so-called health professionals is either patronising, bullying or plain WRONG! Doctors and nurses especially seem to patronise older patients and treat them as children on the assumption that when we reach a certain age we all go gaga and start drooling at the mouth. Well, I won't stand for that and tell them so in no uncertain terms, and they don't usually like it when you take them on! For just one example, we keep reading that the maximum number of alcohol units that should be consumed in a week is 21 for men and 14 for women. Who says so? Some committee somewhere? Why exactly 21, why not 20 or 22, 23 or 24? Does someone simply pluck these figures out of thin air? I was told this fact some time ago by a very bossy diabetic nurse and I asked her to explain where the figures came from. She couldn't, simply muttering something about them being "the laid-down guidelines". But who laid them down, I asked? She couldn't answer me. I pointed out to her that this one-fits-all rule is nonsense because it fails to take into account one vital factor, i.e. everybody has a different tolerance level to alcohol. So-called health professionals, it seems to me, fail to take into account that every patient is different and has different needs and tolerance levels. However, this is too much bother for them - much simpler to lay down inflexible rules and treat everybody exactly the same. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

2:32pm Wed 18 Jan 12

JonBoy says...

The Rover wrote:
JonBoy wrote: does this policy discriminate against the disabled?
Only the fat disabled!
you try exercising when you're disabled you fool
[quote][p][bold]The Rover[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JonBoy[/bold] wrote: does this policy discriminate against the disabled?[/p][/quote]Only the fat disabled![/p][/quote]you try exercising when you're disabled you fool JonBoy
  • Score: 0

2:35pm Wed 18 Jan 12

JonBoy says...

Roy, judging by some of your comments, I am guessing you consume far more than 21 units per week
Roy, judging by some of your comments, I am guessing you consume far more than 21 units per week JonBoy
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Wed 18 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

>Roy, judging by some of your comments, I am guessing you consume far more than 21 units per week<

Sometimes - though I wouldn't say "far more" - but nothing like as much as I used to when I was on expenses and spending Rupert Murdoch's money!

Who was it who said "A day without wine is like a day without sunshine"? Well, I agree! Wine is one of the few civilised pleasures of life remaining when you reach a certain age and no interfering busybody is going to stop me from having a glass or three of a decent red with my dinner.
>Roy, judging by some of your comments, I am guessing you consume far more than 21 units per week< Sometimes - though I wouldn't say "far more" - but nothing like as much as I used to when I was on expenses and spending Rupert Murdoch's money! Who was it who said "A day without wine is like a day without sunshine"? Well, I agree! Wine is one of the few civilised pleasures of life remaining when you reach a certain age and no interfering busybody is going to stop me from having a glass or three of a decent red with my dinner. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

9:31am Thu 19 Jan 12

garston tony says...

And Roy aptly shows the problem that occurs all too often, the real problem some people have with health advice is that it is often confronting them with the need to change an aspect of their life which they are unwilling to give up.

Roy you are right, the guidelines don’t take into account individuals circumstances but on the whole they are an accurate median point on which to base health advice.

'm surprised at you calling something which is based on scientific research wrong, I thought with you science was the all mighty truth which we must all bow down to? Are you saying that science doesn’t get everything right and doesn’t know everything? Glad you're finally getting the point.
And Roy aptly shows the problem that occurs all too often, the real problem some people have with health advice is that it is often confronting them with the need to change an aspect of their life which they are unwilling to give up. Roy you are right, the guidelines don’t take into account individuals circumstances but on the whole they are an accurate median point on which to base health advice. 'm surprised at you calling something which is based on scientific research wrong, I thought with you science was the all mighty truth which we must all bow down to? Are you saying that science doesn’t get everything right and doesn’t know everything? Glad you're finally getting the point. garston tony
  • Score: 0

9:55am Thu 19 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Tony, as one who lives largely alone I can tell you that there is no finer way to relax after a day labouring over a hot computer than to sink into my favourite armchair late at night, with the lights low, and listen to Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald or perhaps a bit of light Mozart or Vivaldi on the hi-fi, sipping from a nice bottle of Merlot, Chiraz or Malbec.

Anyone who wants me to give up this simple pastime will have to fight me first! On the whole, I find non-drinkers exceedingly boring, rather smug and prone to issuing patronising advice to others when they should be minding their own business.

Looking back on my life, I would hardly change a thing. As a journalist for the best part of half a century, as I said earlier I've travelled widely in Europe and America, wined and dined with famous people, publishers, MPs, business folks and so on and had probably several million words published in newspapers, magazines and books. Most people have never had anything published in their whole lives! Now at the start of my eighth decade, I am still beavering away as a freelance writer and genealogist, still being published widely in magazines.
And, yes, like the vast majority of journalists, I've consumed a lot of alcohol over the years! It goes with the territory - we are like showbiz people, we work hard, play hard and lead an unconventional and peripatetic life.

However, if somebody had told me 50 years ago when I first started out on this career, that I could extend my life by 5 or maybe even 10 years by taking a boring job in a bank, building society, town hall or shop, going home at 5.0 o'clock every night and never touching alcohol, I would still have taken the option I did. What is life for if not for living?
Tony, as one who lives largely alone I can tell you that there is no finer way to relax after a day labouring over a hot computer than to sink into my favourite armchair late at night, with the lights low, and listen to Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald or perhaps a bit of light Mozart or Vivaldi on the hi-fi, sipping from a nice bottle of Merlot, Chiraz or Malbec. Anyone who wants me to give up this simple pastime will have to fight me first! On the whole, I find non-drinkers exceedingly boring, rather smug and prone to issuing patronising advice to others when they should be minding their own business. Looking back on my life, I would hardly change a thing. As a journalist for the best part of half a century, as I said earlier I've travelled widely in Europe and America, wined and dined with famous people, publishers, MPs, business folks and so on and had probably several million words published in newspapers, magazines and books. Most people have never had anything published in their whole lives! Now at the start of my eighth decade, I am still beavering away as a freelance writer and genealogist, still being published widely in magazines. And, yes, like the vast majority of journalists, I've consumed a lot of alcohol over the years! It goes with the territory - we are like showbiz people, we work hard, play hard and lead an unconventional and peripatetic life. However, if somebody had told me 50 years ago when I first started out on this career, that I could extend my life by 5 or maybe even 10 years by taking a boring job in a bank, building society, town hall or shop, going home at 5.0 o'clock every night and never touching alcohol, I would still have taken the option I did. What is life for if not for living? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

12:23pm Thu 19 Jan 12

stuegs says...

Roy, you really are full of yourself, any excuse for some shameless self promotion. I cant believe a man as well traveled as yourself, who has wined and dined with the rich and famous, is honouring this forum with your widely published words of wisdom.

You really are a plonka!!
Roy, you really are full of yourself, any excuse for some shameless self promotion. I cant believe a man as well traveled as yourself, who has wined and dined with the rich and famous, is honouring this forum with your widely published words of wisdom. You really are a plonka!! stuegs
  • Score: 0

12:40pm Thu 19 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Thank you so much, stuegs, for YOUR words of wisdom. Envy is not one of the more attractive of the Seven Deadly Sins.

For one thing, I enjoy a good debate, especially with obviously rather stupid people such as yourself who seem to take life so seriously. I enjoy a good wind-up!

Secondly, what you call shameless self promotion I call good advertising. You will probably not understand this, but any professional writer will tell you the same: even after 55 years (I started as a 16-year-old on my local evening paper in Yorkshire) I still get a buzz out of seeing my name in print, and I mean my real name not some silly little pseudonym. I also get a further buzz when the cheque arrives!

I recently had a page lead in the Daily Mail, answering a question about genealogy, which was obviously well noticed because it has brought me several clients who want to hire me for my professional services.

If you care to find me in any of the Rootsweb genealogy mailing lists you will find that I usually append to my signature the old Oscar Wilde aphorism that goes: "There is only thing worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

No such thing as bad publicity, you see, which is why I still enjoy blowing my own trumpet, especially when it gets up the nose of people like you! Those who know me well have come to expect it of me.
Thank you so much, stuegs, for YOUR words of wisdom. Envy is not one of the more attractive of the Seven Deadly Sins. For one thing, I enjoy a good debate, especially with obviously rather stupid people such as yourself who seem to take life so seriously. I enjoy a good wind-up! Secondly, what you call shameless self promotion I call good advertising. You will probably not understand this, but any professional writer will tell you the same: even after 55 years (I started as a 16-year-old on my local evening paper in Yorkshire) I still get a buzz out of seeing my name in print, and I mean my real name not some silly little pseudonym. I also get a further buzz when the cheque arrives! I recently had a page lead in the Daily Mail, answering a question about genealogy, which was obviously well noticed because it has brought me several clients who want to hire me for my professional services. If you care to find me in any of the Rootsweb genealogy mailing lists you will find that I usually append to my signature the old Oscar Wilde aphorism that goes: "There is only thing worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." No such thing as bad publicity, you see, which is why I still enjoy blowing my own trumpet, especially when it gets up the nose of people like you! Those who know me well have come to expect it of me. Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

1:37pm Thu 19 Jan 12

stuegs says...

All i know Roy, is i dont have to shout about what i do for a living or the people i have met. I dont crave attention and i dont need to blow my own trumpet.

You have made quite an assumption by suggesting i am stupid, but i guess that just reinforces the stereotype that surround most journalists these days, its a shame really.

And by the way, if we 're playing 'top trumps celebrities iv met' im pretty sure id beat you hands down. Im a fireman and when off duty i provide fire cover for film crews and special effects. Just finished the latest Johnny Depp film, about to start the new James Bond. Ill say hi to Johnny and Daniel from you.
All i know Roy, is i dont have to shout about what i do for a living or the people i have met. I dont crave attention and i dont need to blow my own trumpet. You have made quite an assumption by suggesting i am stupid, but i guess that just reinforces the stereotype that surround most journalists these days, its a shame really. And by the way, if we 're playing 'top trumps celebrities iv met' im pretty sure id beat you hands down. Im a fireman and when off duty i provide fire cover for film crews and special effects. Just finished the latest Johnny Depp film, about to start the new James Bond. Ill say hi to Johnny and Daniel from you. stuegs
  • Score: 0

1:51pm Thu 19 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Great! However, I wouldn't employ you as a writer if your above message illustrates your general command of English grammar.

Didn't they teach you at school about the use of the apostrophe and that the personal pronoun of the first-person singular (I) is always written in upper case?
Great! However, I wouldn't employ you as a writer if your above message illustrates your general command of English grammar. Didn't they teach you at school about the use of the apostrophe and that the personal pronoun of the first-person singular (I) is always written in upper case? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

1:57pm Thu 19 Jan 12

stuegs says...

I didnt realise i was being marked! Sorry roy, i was just trying to write quickly on my phone. Must try harder.

Well, i bet you d be useless at putting out fires and cutting people out of cars. I guess its all relative
I didnt realise i was being marked! Sorry roy, i was just trying to write quickly on my phone. Must try harder. Well, i bet you d be useless at putting out fires and cutting people out of cars. I guess its all relative stuegs
  • Score: 0

2:20pm Thu 19 Jan 12

garston tony says...

Roy you may feel a drink of wine is the best way to relax. Others may take drugs, or eat a pizza, or chocolates or climb Everest to relax. Doesn’t make it good for your life expectancy.

Oh, and you may not like non drinkers, many people don’t like self promoters especially if they are so obviously full of wind.
Roy you may feel a drink of wine is the best way to relax. Others may take drugs, or eat a pizza, or chocolates or climb Everest to relax. Doesn’t make it good for your life expectancy. Oh, and you may not like non drinkers, many people don’t like self promoters especially if they are so obviously full of wind. garston tony
  • Score: 0

2:48pm Thu 19 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Clearly, Tony, you don't understand and probably never will. Journalists are like showbiz people, as I've tried to explain. We enjoy life and sometimes we abuse it and we have egos, often big ones! How do you think star columnists like Richard Littlejohn, Kelvin Mackenzie and the late, great Keith Waterhouse (not that I am remotely in their league) could bring themselves to address their opinions to millions unless they have strong opinions of their own talents and publicise them widely?

Virtually all the great actors that I can think of were big drinkers and died early, i.e. Richard Burton, Richard Harris, Trevor Howard, Wilfrid Lawson. So were many of the great writers and painters, Alcohol fuelled their genius - think of Ernest Hemingway, Dylan Thomas, Van Gogh, Francis Bacon et al. Not to mention brilliant sporting personalities like George Best, Brian Clough and Alex "Hurricane" Higgins.

But who do you think left far greater legacies - they or some obscure little nobody who spent his entire life working behind a desk in a bank or building society or even worse, a town hall, and never made a single blip in the history books?
Clearly, Tony, you don't understand and probably never will. Journalists are like showbiz people, as I've tried to explain. We enjoy life and sometimes we abuse it and we have egos, often big ones! How do you think star columnists like Richard Littlejohn, Kelvin Mackenzie and the late, great Keith Waterhouse (not that I am remotely in their league) could bring themselves to address their opinions to millions unless they have strong opinions of their own talents and publicise them widely? Virtually all the great actors that I can think of were big drinkers and died early, i.e. Richard Burton, Richard Harris, Trevor Howard, Wilfrid Lawson. So were many of the great writers and painters, Alcohol fuelled their genius - think of Ernest Hemingway, Dylan Thomas, Van Gogh, Francis Bacon et al. Not to mention brilliant sporting personalities like George Best, Brian Clough and Alex "Hurricane" Higgins. But who do you think left far greater legacies - they or some obscure little nobody who spent his entire life working behind a desk in a bank or building society or even worse, a town hall, and never made a single blip in the history books? Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

12:52am Fri 20 Jan 12

Bauer_Is_Back says...

Firstly, the person pushing the skimming world is incredibly misinformed. Diabetes cannot be cured. As some one who helps on the Desmond diabetic courses, we are told by people like you that it can be cured. It can't. It is irresponsible for you to be claiming this, and giving people who have diabetes false hope.

As for Roy, the Guardian would call you a cult. Get of your high horse!
Firstly, the person pushing the skimming world is incredibly misinformed. Diabetes cannot be cured. As some one who helps on the Desmond diabetic courses, we are told by people like you that it can be cured. It can't. It is irresponsible for you to be claiming this, and giving people who have diabetes false hope. As for Roy, the Guardian would call you a cult. Get of your high horse! Bauer_Is_Back
  • Score: 1

6:17am Fri 20 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

Where in any of the above messages did I say that diabetes can be cured? Frankly, I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about! What on earth is "the skimming world"? I've never heard of it.

As for the Guardian, I care about as much what that ailing, failing newspaper - read principally by teachers, social workers and an assorted ragbag of loony lefties - thinks as I do about the opinions of Victoria Beckham or Colleen Rooney!
Where in any of the above messages did I say that diabetes can be cured? Frankly, I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about! What on earth is "the skimming world"? I've never heard of it. As for the Guardian, I care about as much what that ailing, failing newspaper - read principally by teachers, social workers and an assorted ragbag of loony lefties - thinks as I do about the opinions of Victoria Beckham or Colleen Rooney! Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

9:22am Fri 20 Jan 12

garston tony says...

Oh dear, it seems somethings gotten to your head - probably the wine - and you seem to think you are a celebrity and superior to those who actually do a hard days work for their living. Nothing new from you mind you but you seem to think constantly showing us your ego somehow justifies your ludicrous belief
Oh dear, it seems somethings gotten to your head - probably the wine - and you seem to think you are a celebrity and superior to those who actually do a hard days work for their living. Nothing new from you mind you but you seem to think constantly showing us your ego somehow justifies your ludicrous belief garston tony
  • Score: 0

9:41am Fri 20 Jan 12

Roy Stockdill says...

I spent over 40 years doing a hard day's work for a living, Tony, and made enough money to enable me to retire early with a pension in my late 50s. My wife often didn't know whether I would be home that night or whether I'd be in Manchester, Madrid, Milan or Manhattan and she mightn't see me for a week. As I have tried to explain, this is the peripatetic nature of being a journalist, but which you clearly have no conception of. Journalists are quite simply "different" to other people who do boring, mundane jobs all their lives. We are much akin to people in showbiz in this respect, which is why I normally get on well with them. I at least have several million published words in newspapers, magazines and books to show for a lifetime career. What does someone who's spent their life as a bank clerk or town hall lackey have to show?

After taking early retirement, I then embarked on a second career as a genealogist, turning a hobby of 40 years into another occupation.

I am still working all day today at home on the computer but in a different field, researching and writing articles for magazines and also for a few select professional clients. I am one of those people who love their work so much - whereas most people seem to hate their jobs and can't wait to give them up - that I would almost certainly drop off the perch if I had to give up! I cannot envisage myself ever retiring.

Quick final thought: I also love winding up boring, smug, po-faced politically correct nonentities with no vestige of a sense of humour!
I spent over 40 years doing a hard day's work for a living, Tony, and made enough money to enable me to retire early with a pension in my late 50s. My wife often didn't know whether I would be home that night or whether I'd be in Manchester, Madrid, Milan or Manhattan and she mightn't see me for a week. As I have tried to explain, this is the peripatetic nature of being a journalist, but which you clearly have no conception of. Journalists are quite simply "different" to other people who do boring, mundane jobs all their lives. We are much akin to people in showbiz in this respect, which is why I normally get on well with them. I at least have several million published words in newspapers, magazines and books to show for a lifetime career. What does someone who's spent their life as a bank clerk or town hall lackey have to show? After taking early retirement, I then embarked on a second career as a genealogist, turning a hobby of 40 years into another occupation. I am still working all day today at home on the computer but in a different field, researching and writing articles for magazines and also for a few select professional clients. I am one of those people who love their work so much - whereas most people seem to hate their jobs and can't wait to give them up - that I would almost certainly drop off the perch if I had to give up! I cannot envisage myself ever retiring. Quick final thought: I also love winding up boring, smug, po-faced politically correct nonentities with no vestige of a sense of humour! Roy Stockdill
  • Score: 0

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