Judge returns baby to exorcism grandma (From Watford Observer)
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Judge returns baby to exorcism grandma
5:10pm Sunday 16th September 2012 in News
A judge has overturned a Watford court’s decision to remove a baby from her grandmother’s care after she had her daughter exorcised.
Last month Judge Farooq Ahmed, at Watford County Court, ordered the infant's removal from her grandmother's home, saying it would be "deeply unsafe" to leave her there.
Hertfordshire social workers had expressed concerns over the devout Christian grandmother's mental health after learning of she had her daughter exorcised by church elders fearing she was "possessed by demons" .
However, Lord Justice McFarlane, sitting at London's Civil Appeal Court, has now ruled that was an over-reaction and put the family back together again.
The judge said the grandmother was the girl's primary carer, due to the fragile mental health of the child’s mother, and had done her best to raise her in a loving environment.
Judge Farooq Ahmed had based his decision to order the girl's removal on an episode three years ago - two years before the child’s birth - in which the grandmother spoke of her own daughter being possessed by demons.
She had called in elders of the church where she worships who performed an exorcism before contacting health professionals. Judge Ahmed said he was "very concerned" that the woman might come to think her baby granddaughter was also "possessed" and "do something to the baby to remove the demons".
However the family’s lawyers argued that the judge’s finding that the grandmother posed a risk to the child were "speculative" and should be overruled.
Lord Justice McFarlane, sitting with Lord Justice Ward, said the normally careful judge had gone too far when he ordered the girl’s removal. There was no clear evidence that the grandmother had actually experienced hallucinations when she expressed fears about her daughter’s demons, he said.
Comments(48)
LSC
says...
7:02pm Sun 16 Sep 12
I notice 'The Religion of Peace' is currently slaughtering people again because of a badly made and badly dubbed You Tube video.
I've watched it.
It's a bit rubbish.... No; actually it is really ****.
But people are being killed because of it, of course. Like religious people need an excuse to kill people that don't agree with them.
Deist1
says...
7:17pm Sun 16 Sep 12
WatfordAlex
says...
8:18pm Sun 16 Sep 12
LSC: you never miss a chance to slag off 'religion' - as if it is one homogeneous thing. You can cherry pick bad examples to your hearts content (so can I: Stalin), but it is meaningless. I am not going to defend those lunatics in poverty ridden parts of the world who like smashing stuff up. But equally, I would not be so simplistic as to think they represent 'religion' any more than the knuckle heads at Old Trafford, who were singing about Liverpool, represent all sports fans.
pepsiman
says...
10:08pm Sun 16 Sep 12
LSC
says...
1:24am Mon 17 Sep 12
Those are the people religion needs to make it work. As you say, knuckleheads.
Currently they are cheerfully killing people; but they are also automatically in the House of Lords making the rules your children have to live by.
That may, or may not, bother you.
It bothers me.
JohnnyHornet
says...
8:51am Mon 17 Sep 12
pepsiman wrote:Well it would be here in GB, all taking dole money and benefits.
Imagine - a world without religion or territories. It would be so overcrowded.
dontknowynot
says...
9:34am Mon 17 Sep 12
garston tony
says...
12:48pm Mon 17 Sep 12
That bothers me.
Of course back to the ACTUAL story, I'd point out that it was the elders of the church who called health professionals in. That doesn’t sit very well with your view point though does it?
TRT
says...
2:43pm Mon 17 Sep 12
Having heard of some of the despicable acts carried out against children lately (and though some of these are rooted in religion, many more aren't), these cases involving child protection really are very delicate value judgments - is it more harmful to leave a child where it is or remove it from the family home?
Roy Stockdill
says...
3:20pm Mon 17 Sep 12
It couldn't be that he is a Muslim, could it, while the family are Christian? No perish the thought, judges are impartial aren't they? Not, of course, that I approve of exorcisms in any religion - they are as LSC says a manifestation of backward and superstitious beliefs.
LSC
says...
4:30pm Mon 17 Sep 12
You make sense 99% of the time.
But this story is about people who believe in demons.
That is a Mental Health issue, although the church does officially support the fact it can happen. How can you go with that rubbish?
Roy Stockdill
says...
4:50pm Mon 17 Sep 12
Of course, we're not supposed to say this, are we, because it's racist? Well, I am going to say it because I for one am not willing to fudge the truth, even if others are. If someone can prove me wrong, I will gladly apologise.
mc77
says...
7:33pm Mon 17 Sep 12
My own son's school say prayers at assembly and "thank God" for the gift of nature, whilst also "not seeking to impose religious beliefs on the children". I take great exception to this. Is it unreasonable to expect our children's education to be based on scientific fact?
Which leads us to the question of "respect" for the views of others. If a person in a public place is seen to be conversing with a non-existent entity, would we not question that person's mental capacity? But is this not what people do on a daily basis all over the world in the name of faith? It's a fine line, and a debate that we should not be afraid to have when the upbringing of the next generation is in question.
Roy Stockdill
says...
8:07pm Mon 17 Sep 12
I find it very sad indeed, as a fellow atheist, that there are many, many millions (no, make that billions) of people in the world who are so ignorant and backward that they are unable to see how stupid and uneducated they are, simply because they have had religion forced down their throats from birth and have never thought to challenge it. I am sorry to say it but this applies particularly to the Muslim world more than any other religion. Truly, they live in the Middle Ages and not the 21st century.
We can but hope that one of these days they will grow up and come to see the truth and how ignorant they have been.
TRT
says...
8:39pm Mon 17 Sep 12
You are no less guilty of perpetuating the conflict and ill-feeling.
When each person looks and feels and knows their own personal truth, whatever that may be, then could there not be some underlying truth? Something that, when it is revealed, will have everyone saying "but of course! How could we have missed something so obvious?"
stuegs
says...
8:54pm Mon 17 Sep 12
I am an atheist, but i can see how some people may need to have something to put their 'faith' in. I always thought that religion was a platform to promote tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. I alway thought that religion, in its purest form, should be a set of guidelines that encourage communities to live together in peace. Wrong, the opposite is true.
We all know that, throughout history, religion is responsible for more deaths, persercution and oppression than anything else.
Religion, in general, causes more harm than good.
LSC
says...
9:43pm Mon 17 Sep 12
I'm not one side of a debate.
There is no debate to be had.
There are no Sky Fairies.
Right this minute people are being killed over someone who wasn't even a supposed god being mocked. He was only a prophet in the first place.
That, in the league table puts him somewhere below jesus (The son of god) and slightly above John the baptist, although I forget what he did; made someone wet at some point probably.
garston tony
says...
1:00pm Tue 18 Sep 12
The point is that believing in demons does not make you someone who is going to harm others. This lady despite her belief did nothing to harm her daughter and has done nothing to indicate that she will harm her granddaughter yet the original judge basically convicted her of something for which there was no evidence. The second judge was quite right to quash that 'conviction' therefore.
If we're going down that route shouldn’t people who believe in ghosts and aliens, and there are many non religious people that do believe these things, also have their children taken away. After all aren't ghosts and aliens also 'blamed' for people doing awful things?
I don’t believe in sky faries either LSC, I do believe in God though and would like to say a big LIKE to TRT's comment
garston tony
says...
1:06pm Tue 18 Sep 12
Its understandable but a shame that all too often people look at the actions of people and take those actions to be based in their religion when (with a little effort) they'd see they are totally man made and nothing actually to do with their professed religion.
But really comments like Roy's about billions of backward and ignorant people fly in the face of reality, people of faith come in all shapes and sizes so yes there will be some who haven't had a decent education or the culture they are born in isn't as 'developed' (and that’s a subjective word/belief in itelf) as ours (but that doesn’t make them idiots) but there are plenty who are highly intelligent, very well educated and who were lucky enough to be born in a so called 'advanced' culture who believe in God.
garston tony
says...
1:12pm Tue 18 Sep 12
Your attitude is like someone winning the lottery and behaving afterwards like their win was down to their own genius rather than having picked numbers that a machine spouted out at random. For all your self aggrandisement you could just have easily been born in a slum in Africa with no access to education, jobs, health care and so on and died at an early age.
Okay you've made the most of the opportunity you were given and credit to you for that, the fact you've had the life you've had however is still 90% down to chance.
I'd wager take the majority of the ignorant backward people from around the world and put them in this country and they will do far more with the opportunity they are presented with than the millions of people born here who waste the privileges they are given. But that is a different matter of debate
Roy Stockdill
says...
1:38pm Tue 18 Sep 12
A prophet that some historians cast doubt on whether he ever existed at all! Personally, I have no time whatsoever for so-called prophets, whether they be Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, St Paul, Moses, Mohammed, Joseph Smith (founder of the Mormons), Kim Sun Moon of the Moonies or that conman who founded the Scientologists, L Ron Hubbard, who was no more than a failed pulp science fiction writer, so decided to invent a religion instead.
The Scientologists have a lot of followers in Hollywood, which is perhaps understandable since the film and acting world is full of nutters, especially in America! But I find it hard to comprehend how supposedly intelligent people can be so gullible as to fall for all the codswallop.
On the subject of the current Muslim rioting, can you imagine the carnage there would have been over Monty Python's marvellous Life of Brian film if that had been about the Prophet Mohammed instead of christianity?
Why do Muslims take everything so seriously and take exception to the merest perceived slight against their religion? Surely if a religion is worth having it should be capable of taking a joke against itself now and then, but militant Muslims appear to visibly lack any vestige of a sense of humour.
LSC
says...
1:57pm Tue 18 Sep 12
But I can't really put the insecure label on muslims who respond to any perceived sleight with murder and mayhem.
They seem very secure indeed.
Roy Stockdill
says...
2:09pm Tue 18 Sep 12
The medieval attitude of many Muslim men towards women surely indicates a gross immaturity because they appear to perceive women as a threat to their macho male dominance. Isn't this the whole major problem with Muslim society, especially in the more backward areas?
LSC
says...
2:18pm Tue 18 Sep 12
garston tony wrote:It is all a fine line Tony, and every case should be judged individually.
But I believe in demons LSC. Maybe not in the same way and manner as the lady in this article, but should I go see a shrink then?
The point is that believing in demons does not make you someone who is going to harm others. This lady despite her belief did nothing to harm her daughter and has done nothing to indicate that she will harm her granddaughter yet the original judge basically convicted her of something for which there was no evidence. The second judge was quite right to quash that 'conviction' therefore.
If we're going down that route shouldn’t people who believe in ghosts and aliens, and there are many non religious people that do believe these things, also have their children taken away. After all aren't ghosts and aliens also 'blamed' for people doing awful things?
I don’t believe in sky faries either LSC, I do believe in God though and would like to say a big LIKE to TRT's comment
There is a big difference between a trusted adult telling a child:
"I believe there are Monsters under the bed; but not everyone does"
and
"There are Monsters under the bed".
The fact you are willing to debate your beliefs, to me, puts you in the first catergory, the healthy one. So no, I think you are wrong, but not mentally unstable.
I don't believe in ghosts, but I think there are probably aliens out there somewhere. That's just the law of probability though. I don't believe they have visited this planet at any time.
And that is how I would put my belief to anyone, children included.
I would not teach it as fact, which is where I have my main beef with religion.
Facts are facts, and theory is theory. I am typing on this computer. Fact.
I think in an infinate Universe there is other life forms on some other planets. Theory. To my mind, probable; but unproven.
garston tony
says...
12:15pm Wed 19 Sep 12
LSC you wouldn’t teach your belief in aliens as fact which is great, I understand. And I understand your point about Chritianity being taught as fact too to a point. All I'd say to that is two things 1) even when taught to children as fact they will always reach a point where they decide for themselves if they actually believe it or not and 2) you're quite happy to have evolution and big bang taught as fact when the evidence for that is not conclusive by a long stretch.
I'd add another point, just because you believe in and are happy to tell your children about say God does not make you a bad person, nor does it mean you are doing them any harm.
Oi, Roy I'll take your ignoring my post about your misplaced arrogance to mean that you know it to be the truth. Stop bashing people who havent had your opportunities in life, opportunities you only had through sheer luck and nothing you’ve actually done yourself
Roy Stockdill
says...
12:31pm Wed 19 Sep 12
>Why not take something seriously, why not be passionate about something? If someone attacked a member of your family wouldn’t you respond? Well to Muslims the Prophet is far more important than even the closest family member.<
That is precisely my point and why I consider them to be backward, since they appear to take literally the words of a prophet who may or may not have existed and whose words (whoever wrote them) were written some 14 or 15 hundred years ago and have been misinterpreted and embellished by militant fanatics. This is why there can never be any understanding between the Muslim and Western worlds until they drag themselves out of the Middle Ages and into the 21st century.
Roy Stockdill
says...
12:42pm Wed 19 Sep 12
Do you know how I got my first job when I was only 15 and just about to leave grammar school, still awaiting the results of my GCE exams? I walked into the large offices of the Halifax Courier, my local evening newspaper in the town centre, with my school satchel on my back and asked to see the editor! They were so amazed they actually took me to his office where he interviewed me without an appointment. I told him exactly why I wanted to be a journalist and how good I was at English. A few weeks later he wrote to my father offering me a job as a junior reporter and he said in his letter that the reason they were taking me on was because they were so impressed with my initiative and ambition. Seemingly, no-one had ever done it before!
For the rest of my life I have always grasped at opportunities when they came along, which is how I rose in the media. I like to think I am still as ambitious now in my early 70s as I was all those years ago in Halifax, which is why you will find my name all over the Internet as a top genealogist. Once you lose ambition you may as well turn up your toes!
garston tony
says...
7:41am Thu 20 Sep 12
garston tony
says...
7:44am Thu 20 Sep 12
But your sense of superiority is extremely blatently flawed as you had no say in where you were born and therefore no say in what opportunities were provided to you. The CHANCE of where you were born gave you the life you have had. The CHANCE of where you are born could easily have seen you born in one of the many countries that you so smuggly look down on and be one of the billions of people you dismiss so easily. You could be one of the starving millions you'd happily allow to die.
Just because billions around the world dont have the same opportunities that you have had doesnt make them in any way inferior than you Roy. CHANCE is what has given you the 'better' life Roy, nothing else
Roy Stockdill
says...
8:14am Thu 20 Sep 12
I will not change my view that the Muslim culture is way behind the West and that the attitude of many Muslim men to women is barbaric and medieval. And before you tell me that male attitudes to women in this country were rather backward once upon a time, yes I am aware of that. But Muslim men today seem just as terrified of their womenfolk gaining their independence as British men did before WWI and in the 1920s and were fearful of the suffragettes.
garston tony
says...
10:13am Thu 20 Sep 12
Nothing youve done, none of the luck youve had gives you the right to judge others like you do.
Roy Stockdill
says...
11:46am Thu 20 Sep 12
And I have a perfect right to express my opinion of something of which I disapprove. It's a concept called freedom of speech. No religion or culture is sacrosanct or exempt from criticism of some aspects of it, including our own. This is a vital tenet of Western democracy.
Roy Stockdill
says...
11:50am Thu 20 Sep 12
LSC
says...
12:37pm Thu 20 Sep 12
garston tony wrote:A telling statement Tony. 'Born' a muslim? Are you suggesting that it is difficult to stop being one anytime you wanted to? That you are of a religion before you have a choice?
Still just LUCK that you werent born a Muslim Roy.
Nothing youve done, none of the luck youve had gives you the right to judge others like you do.
Are you in fact admitting that people are forced into, and then contained into religions by family and community pressure for life?
Because that's what I have been arguing for months.
mc77
says...
12:46pm Thu 20 Sep 12
I too was brought up Roman Catholic. It wasn't until I went to senior school that I realised it wasn't the only path to follow, and if it wasn't the only path - that there were others who believed strongly in a different God - who was to say that what I had held true all my life was the TRUTH.
I look back on my primary school years and feel, for want of a different phrase, brainwashed. That God-fearing little girl knew no better. And let me tell you, it didn't make me into any kind of little saint either. I behaved in exactly the same way as any other child my age. Religion doesn't make you a better person, it just means you know no better.
But in a scientific age, it is unacceptable to force ones religious beliefs on ones children.
Evolution is FACT, creationism is FAITH. The phrase Big Bang is always followed by the word "theory", nobody knows how the universe was created, we are in an age of discovery, but the universe is expanding FACT. I expect my child to be taught FACT. It's not too much to ask is it?
Roy Stockdill
says...
1:39pm Thu 20 Sep 12
Has anyone read about the ordeal of Salman Rushdie, spending years in hiding and constantly afraid of being killed merely for the perceived "crime" of writing a book - a book, which in my opinion was actually so utterly unreadable that I very much doubt whether one in a thousand Muslims were capable of understanding it anyway. This is the true dictatorship of ignorant and malignant religion.
garston tony
says...
2:37pm Thu 20 Sep 12
Roy Stockdill wrote:Wasn’t saying don’t criticise where its valid, just saying cut out the arrogance Roy. Your mis placed self aggrandisement only weakens anything valid you may very occasionally have to say
I rather tend to doubt that I am the only one who considers many Muslim men to be backward in their attitudes to women and frightened of losing their macho male domination. I believe my view is almost certainly shared by millions of English people. And I have a perfect right to express my opinion of something of which I disapprove. It's a concept called freedom of speech. No religion or culture is sacrosanct or exempt from criticism of some aspects of it, including our own. This is a vital tenet of Western democracy.
garston tony
says...
2:38pm Thu 20 Sep 12
LSC wrote:LSC, okay born into a Muslim family, born into a Muslim community. Still comes a point where you can choose your own path and beliefs. Believe me I've been to many a predominantly, even hardcore Muslim country and spoken to ordinary folk who have turned from the religion and fear no repercussions.
garston tony wrote: Still just LUCK that you werent born a Muslim Roy. Nothing youve done, none of the luck youve had gives you the right to judge others like you do.A telling statement Tony. 'Born' a muslim? Are you suggesting that it is difficult to stop being one anytime you wanted to? That you are of a religion before you have a choice? Are you in fact admitting that people are forced into, and then contained into religions by family and community pressure for life? Because that's what I have been arguing for months.
garston tony
says...
2:40pm Thu 20 Sep 12
mc77 wrote:MC77, no its perfectly possible to have the 'Christian' values but have none of the other beliefs of that faith. I've never claimed otherwise. By the same token, its perfectly possible for children to grow up surrounded and taught not just the values but the other beliefs of Christianity and yet not believe in God or Jesus.
Are we saying, GarstonTony, that it is not possible to raise a child with "Christian values" without bringing religion into their upbringing? I raise my child to show compassion and respect towards others without telling him that it is God's will, it's just the morally right thing to do. I too was brought up Roman Catholic. It wasn't until I went to senior school that I realised it wasn't the only path to follow, and if it wasn't the only path - that there were others who believed strongly in a different God - who was to say that what I had held true all my life was the TRUTH. I look back on my primary school years and feel, for want of a different phrase, brainwashed. That God-fearing little girl knew no better. And let me tell you, it didn't make me into any kind of little saint either. I behaved in exactly the same way as any other child my age. Religion doesn't make you a better person, it just means you know no better. But in a scientific age, it is unacceptable to force ones religious beliefs on ones children. Evolution is FACT, creationism is FAITH. The phrase Big Bang is always followed by the word "theory", nobody knows how the universe was created, we are in an age of discovery, but the universe is expanding FACT. I expect my child to be taught FACT. It's not too much to ask is it?
You have shared a bit about your upbringing and you have proven my point, there was a point where you saw other things and in your case decided Christianity wasn’t for you. Like I did. Every kid reaches a point where what they have been brought up to believe (and not just about religion, about everything) is tested and they then make a decision to carry on believing something or they change their beliefs.
Micro evolution is fact, macro evolution isnt. Creationism does involve a lot of faith, but faith backed up by real historical evidence. But if you only want 'facts' taught then neither evolution nor big bang should have a place in the class room should they.
If this scientific age teaches us anything is that what science believes one minute can quite easily change the next....
garston tony
says...
2:42pm Thu 20 Sep 12
Hows that for a supposedly man made 2000 + year old 'bit of rubbish'. This of course is just one of the many scientific facts contained in the Bible written all that time ago that science is only just starting to'discover' for itself.
garston tony
says...
2:42pm Thu 20 Sep 12
Roy Stockdill wrote:The Roman Catholic church does not represent all of Christianity, neither do militant Muslims represent the entirety of that faith either. They're called 'militant' for a reason you know….
Are not Roman Catholicism and Islam the two major world religions that do more harm than any other by bullying and brainwashing their adherents into accepting the faith without question? Militant Muslims even believe that those whom dare to leave the faith - and those who don't belong to it at all - should be murdered. Beyond belief! Has anyone read about the ordeal of Salman Rushdie, spending years in hiding and constantly afraid of being killed merely for the perceived "crime" of writing a book - a book, which in my opinion was actually so utterly unreadable that I very much doubt whether one in a thousand Muslims were capable of understanding it anyway. This is the true dictatorship of ignorant and malignant religion.
Just like you Roy arent a great reflection on Humanism for instance. Or have you given up on that now?
mc77
says...
2:55pm Thu 20 Sep 12
This is LYING to children. I'm not talking tooth fairy or Father Christmas here. I'm talking about teaching children about a non-existent deity. It's one thing being taught it at home, but it should have ABSOLUTELY no place in the school setting.
garston tony
says...
3:42pm Thu 20 Sep 12
b) I look forward to your equally empassioned call to stop evolution and big bang being taught in schools then.
If your sons schools has prayers at assembly and 'thanks God' for nature it sounds like its faith based. Can I ask please why therefore in this age of parent choice you send him to that school if you disagree with it so much?
mc77
says...
6:18pm Thu 20 Sep 12
If parents feel the need to teach their child about their religious beliefs at home, that is their right. And a subject I could get a bit "ranty" about on another occasion.
But the classroom, in 2012, is certainly not a place for the acceptable face of "brainwashing".
LSC
says...
1:43am Fri 21 Sep 12
garston tony wrote:Source Tony? I'd find that interesting.
Oh, by the way do you know where I first read about the universe expanding? The Bible. When I was around 9.
Hows that for a supposedly man made 2000 + year old 'bit of rubbish'. This of course is just one of the many scientific facts contained in the Bible written all that time ago that science is only just starting to'discover' for itself.
I find it interesting because it is so often challenging the bible that has resulted in Humankind learning things and finding the real answer.
Thank goodness we are not still stuck in the age of the Inquisition, burning people for heresy, and priests being the richest, most important guys in town. When people were banned from reading and education; where medicine was suppressed.
A few people challenged it, and many died. But they are the heroes.
Without those people we wouldn't have Great Ormond Street Hospital; we'd still have people holding hands and chanting.
garston tony
says...
12:17pm Fri 21 Sep 12
mc77 wrote:I must be out of touch as I thought only faith based schools did prayers and assembly. I appreciate your point more even though myself I have no problem with it.
What I am trying to say is theories and religious beliefs have no place in the school setting when they are being taught as fact. The classroom is a place of science and learning. If I had sent my child to a "faith" school (which I have not), that would be a different matter. I fully expect my child to be taught what science has PROVED to be true. If parents feel the need to teach their child about their religious beliefs at home, that is their right. And a subject I could get a bit "ranty" about on another occasion. But the classroom, in 2012, is certainly not a place for the acceptable face of "brainwashing".
But my counter point again is if you only want science FACT taught then 99% of evolution shouldnt be taught and 100% of big bang has no place in the school either.
I would point out, as I have in the past on other discussions, that much of what science ACTUALLY knows and holds up as proof of evolution doesnt actually contradict the Bible nor is it definitive proof of evolution.
I'd also like to clairfy in the absense of italics i'm using capitals for emphasis not shouting!
garston tony
says...
12:38pm Fri 21 Sep 12
We've been over this many a time but there seems to be this view that somehow every scientific discovery is a nail in the coffin for creationism when the reality is none of what science actually knows contradicts the Bible account of how the world came to be and indeed as I mentioned in my last post (and many a time before) many scientific discoveries actually confirms whats written in the Bible.
The only science that contradicts the Bible is some scientific theory, which is continually being changed anyway and is totally unproven.
So if you personally don’t believe the Bible that’s your choice, but as we've discussed plenty of times in the past please don’t claim the Bible to be man made and use man made science to argue against it!
phil mitchel says...
5:45pm Sun 16 Sep 12