Incident between rival fans at pub (From Watford Observer)

All pictures and information related to this issue which was entirely the fault of Peterborough fans arriving drunk without police in attendance will be passed to Peterborough officials.

You can clearly tell Neil Price is a Watford fan in this piece. Blame everyone else!!

Of course he is, he used to play for us and him and his brother run thr pub.
Doesn't alter the facts though, Posh fans to blame

As many commentators and sports writers predicted, it was only a brief matter of time before the heroics and outstanding sportsmanship of the London Olympics were long forgotten and moronic football fans from the gutters took over the sports headlines once more.

Coming after the disgraceful treatment of young England players in Serbia and the attack on a goalkeeper in the Leeds-Sheffield Wednesday derby, one is bound to ask: will anything ever change in football? Ironic, isn't it, that the world's most popular sport is the one that seems to attract more of the neanderthal scum from the lower orders than any other? I cannot think of any other sport in which such mayhem regularly happens.

Don't think this will be the last incident. There will be many, many more until we as a supposed civilised society find some way of dealing with these animals. The problem seems to be that as they are of such low mentality and IQ, they have nothing else in their sad little lives other than to exhibit tribal hatred.

I'd like to see special prisons on the lines of the American "boot camps" set up in which offenders are treated to such harsh regimes that they will think twice or several times about ever causing trouble again.

WO bit late with this one, it seems the posh fans were causing trouble in Wetherspoons and escaped the police out the back way, not sure why they were able to carry on opposite the ground at the pub without the police being around to deal with them before anyone was hurt. Good to get 3 points though. COYH

@Roy. The thing that made me sick to my stomach was that moron ran on the pitch at Hillsborough of all places. A place that used to have cage fences to stop that kind of thing...

Beyond belief.

CroxleyTandoori wrote:
You can clearly tell Neil Price is a Watford fan in this piece. Blame everyone else!!

All Neil did was report the cowardly events as they happened. In the garden at this time were a lot of familes and kids.If anything Neil understated what was a nasty incident caused by some nasty little thugs.

There's been a lot of negativity surrounding football not just over the years but recently, but why does it attract the real scum of society?

Why do people who are sane and rational any other time come match day act like thugs and morons?

Yes its a release from the daily grind for probably everyone who goes to games but there is no excuse for this or the myriad other behaviour people think is acceptable or accept is the norm at a football game

Photos of some of the Peterborough culprits on Yellow & Red Lion Facebook Page.

These photos and photos of the girls injury to her nose/face are being passed to Peterborough Director by the Pubs Secretary Alan Palmer

Police did interview the injured girl but in her own words "didn't seem to care"

Questions need to be asked of the police :-

Why were a group of 30 individuals being monitored by police allowed to escape the Moon pub in the high street out the back and walk half a mile "chanting" right up to the ground ?

Why were there no police outside the ground by away end

Why were there no police in the ground (after said incident)

Why was the victim left feeling "that the police didn't care"

Is there CCTV outside pub or away end

This was minor compared to Hillsborough on Friday night, but ineffective policing is an ongoing concern ....

Maybe the Wobby can get an official statement from Herts Police or is it OK for a girl to get hit by a glass and a bar staff member getting punched ?

There was a group of around 10-15 on the train from Euston to Watford Junction at 12.24. Around the 16-20 age and looked like after a pint they might get a bit gobby.

Tony, I grew up watching and playing football as avidly as anyone in the 1950s and I simply do not remember any such incidents in those days.

I think one cause today is the fanatical tribalism that the game seems to attract, i.e. where rival supporters literally hate anyone who doesn't follow the same team as them. I can recall when I was a lad living near Halifax the big local side were Burnley, then a major club in the old First Division and we used to go there sometimes. Huddersfield Town were also a big club and they weren't far away. My grandfather used to take me to Bradford City and I had an uncle who followed the other Bradford team, Park Avenue, for whom the great Len Shackleton played. We even hopped on the train to Manchester now and then for a match. Now and then, for a laugh, we'd go and watch Halifax Town at The Shay!

The point is that we didn't slavishly follow one team, we went where we thought the best match might be and especially if some legendary player like Stanley Matthews or Tom Finney was playing we would move heaven and earth to see them.

There are numerous causes of the violence and strife in soccer today but principally among them are.....

1) Money. Current players earn Mickey Mouse wages far beyond those of the average fan who pays them. So many players also are now foreign mercenaries with no loyalties whatsoever to a particular club. Also, many players themselves have IQs and behavioural systems little better than some of the fans, whereas those stars in other sports who earn large sums - tennis players, golfers, motor racing drivers, cyclists, jockeys, cricketers, etc - tend to be middle class and above the intelligence level of the average footballer, many of whom seem to come from gutter sink estates. Violence on the field by badly behaved players often provokes violence off it.

2) Greed. Football club owners, many of them now foreign, are interested only in what they can get out of it, along with agents and managers, some of whom are as bent as corkscrews.

3) Media. Yes, I partly blame my own former profession here for stoking the fires of controversy and provoking outbursts between fans with some of the irresponsible coverage. I do not blame the sportswriters themselves, rather the editors who demand it because they know it puts on circulation. You never seem to read a preview or straight report of a match today without it being angled at controversy and disputes.

4) A general lowering of standards in society and a lack of education, especially amongst the lower orders who seem to lead such sad and empty lives that they have little else to do other than create trouble. If only they could learn to develop a few other interests outside football!

http://www.facebook.
com/groups/289484841
151563/

If you wish to join the Yellow & Red Lion Facebook Page contact Alan Raymond Palmer on Facebook or email "alanraymondpalmer@b
tinternet.com"

Alan is the Pub's Secretary

Roy Stockdill wrote:
As many commentators and sports writers predicted, it was only a brief matter of time before the heroics and outstanding sportsmanship of the London Olympics were long forgotten and moronic football fans from the gutters took over the sports headlines once more.

Coming after the disgraceful treatment of young England players in Serbia and the attack on a goalkeeper in the Leeds-Sheffield Wednesday derby, one is bound to ask: will anything ever change in football? Ironic, isn't it, that the world's most popular sport is the one that seems to attract more of the neanderthal scum from the lower orders than any other? I cannot think of any other sport in which such mayhem regularly happens.

Don't think this will be the last incident. There will be many, many more until we as a supposed civilised society find some way of dealing with these animals. The problem seems to be that as they are of such low mentality and IQ, they have nothing else in their sad little lives other than to exhibit tribal hatred.

I'd like to see special prisons on the lines of the American "boot camps" set up in which offenders are treated to such harsh regimes that they will think twice or several times about ever causing trouble again.

Almost as moronic as pathetic little local rag 'journalists' comparing football to the Olympics and making chavland heroes of these silly little boys by making such a big issue of a relatively minor issue....morons like u Stockdill are typical of the attitude of people in authority who sit and write eye catching phrases like 'mindless morons' low mentality' and pathetic comparisons with world level events instead of dealing with the problem which has more often than not been caused by people from decent backgrounds with steady jobs....sitting in an office all day never was a qualification in understanding the tribal mentality of a football crowd...stick to what you know little man..

Holly68 asks some good questions about the police's attitude.

I get the feeling the police have all but given up keeping our streets safe and simply throw up their hands when confronted with drunken football supporters, taking the easy way out and the view there's nothing they can do about it.

Contrast this with the actions of the police in Lancashire recently when a trigger-happy thug posing as a police officer tasered a blind pensioner because he mistook his white stick for a samurai sword, then sat on the poor man and handcuffed him, severely injuring him.

I was just about to say that there are some people who are simply spoiling for a fight. I don't understand it myself.

https://picasaweb.go
ogle.com/m/viewer#al
bum/1050472883156702
28342/58016960086915
98337

Pics from the pub and over the wall taken by the pubs secretary once the police finally arrived

Thanks for your comments, Tiger Bay.

What you call the "tribal mentality" of a football crowd is what we better educated and more intelligent in society would describe as a mindless mob of morons and cretins on the march. As I have explained above, I simply do not recall it happening when I was younger and I went to lots of football matches in those days. People on the whole were better behaved then and better educated (before the introduction of dumbed-down comprehensive education in a hopelessly failed attempt to make everybody equal).

Your trivial comment about people sitting in offices and not understanding it is not even worthy of a response.

Point here is this wasn't an arranged meet, it was unfair unprovoked taken by surprise attack on a pub full of families at family day !

I think the problem is people desperatley trying to find an identity. In the 50's era Roy describes, people had one. A generation who had just been 'in it together' in the war. There were jobs for life. You were a miner from a mining village. A steel worker from Sheffield.
But now, well, who are you?
Class, race, family, jobs; all these lines are more blurred now than 50 years ago.
People need to belong, and a football team is as good as any.
Problem is, some people need to prove to themselves and others they belong, and just wearing a shirt isn't enough for them.

LSC is absolutely right. Society has changed out of all recognition in the 60-odd years since WWII and not entirely for the better.

In the same way that some football fans seek "togetherness" in their tribal support for a team, many black youths in the inner cities seek recognition and a purpose in life which is why, sadly, they join gangs and become immersed in the gun and knife and crime culture and incite riots.

Perhaps we need another war to provide some sort of national unity! The problem is we've become so wishy washy, politically correct and namby pamby in many of our attitudes that I doubt we'd ever be capable of fighting one again. Where on earth today would we find the 21st century equivalents of those brave young men who fought and won the Battle of Britain in the skies?

The bad smell returns, a small bit of aggro and the Ex News of the World man Roy Stockdill offers his out of date nonsense views on something he knows nothing about! You've retired no one listens to you anymore Pops. Get yourself on a saga cruise instead.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
LSC is absolutely right. Society has changed out of all recognition in the 60-odd years since WWII and not entirely for the better.

In the same way that some football fans seek "togetherness" in their tribal support for a team, many black youths in the inner cities seek recognition and a purpose in life which is why, sadly, they join gangs and become immersed in the gun and knife and crime culture and incite riots.

Perhaps we need another war to provide some sort of national unity! The problem is we've become so wishy washy, politically correct and namby pamby in many of our attitudes that I doubt we'd ever be capable of fighting one again. Where on earth today would we find the 21st century equivalents of those brave young men who fought and won the Battle of Britain in the skies?

Or maybe you should stop reading the Mail and think up some opinions of your own?

Was anyone on this post is the garden? I was, the first spit and item thrown came from within the garden. The only things thrown into the garden were the plastic glasses the Watford fans had thrown out.

Very one sided account including from mr price. One Watford fan was continually throwing said glasses, shaking the gate like he really wanted to get through and confront the posh when he simply could have walked through the door.

Yes there were young families, yes it it was uncomfortable and intimidating, but one sided? 6 of one as I saw it :-(

Oh dear, the voice of youth gives vent to its semi-literate ramblings from its priviliged position as the recipient of a comprehensive education at some sink school.

As it happens, the Mail's opinions are largely shared by millions of peope in Middle England, young and old, the better educated and the more sophisticated. You know, that portion of society whose lips don't move, mouthing the words, when they are struggling to read the Sun or the Star, the Beano or the latest twitters from cretinous, moronic footballers.

> Was anyone on this post is the garden? I was, the first spit and item thrown came from within the garden. The only things thrown into the garden were the plastic glasses the Watford fans had thrown out.
> Very one sided account including from mr price. One Watford fan was continually throwing said glasses, shaking the gate like he really wanted to get through and confront the posh when he simply could have walked through the door. Yes there were young families, yes it it was uncomfortable and intimidating, but one sided? 6 of one as I saw it :-(<

Who cares who started it or whether it was six of one and half a dozen of the other? I think you just made my point that only football fans behave in such a fashion. I don't recall reading about cricket, rugby, cycling, tennis, athletics fans, etc, behaving like this because it seems to be only football fans who are sufficiently low life.

Stockdill won't read the Mail not after working for the news of the world for years! He reads the sun and the sport!

Roy Stockdill wrote:
As many commentators and sports writers predicted, it was only a brief matter of time before the heroics and outstanding sportsmanship of the London Olympics were long forgotten and moronic football fans from the gutters took over the sports headlines once more.

Coming after the disgraceful treatment of young England players in Serbia and the attack on a goalkeeper in the Leeds-Sheffield Wednesday derby, one is bound to ask: will anything ever change in football? Ironic, isn't it, that the world's most popular sport is the one that seems to attract more of the neanderthal scum from the lower orders than any other? I cannot think of any other sport in which such mayhem regularly happens.

Don't think this will be the last incident. There will be many, many more until we as a supposed civilised society find some way of dealing with these animals. The problem seems to be that as they are of such low mentality and IQ, they have nothing else in their sad little lives other than to exhibit tribal hatred.

I'd like to see special prisons on the lines of the American &quot;boot camps" set up in which offenders are treated to such harsh regimes that they will think twice or several times about ever causing trouble again.

The only fight I saw at the stadium last season was at a Saracens game.

smeg wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
LSC is absolutely right. Society has changed out of all recognition in the 60-odd years since WWII and not entirely for the better.

In the same way that some football fans seek &quot;togetherness" in their tribal support for a team, many black youths in the inner cities seek recognition and a purpose in life which is why, sadly, they join gangs and become immersed in the gun and knife and crime culture and incite riots.

Perhaps we need another war to provide some sort of national unity! The problem is we've become so wishy washy, politically correct and namby pamby in many of our attitudes that I doubt we'd ever be capable of fighting one again. Where on earth today would we find the 21st century equivalents of those brave young men who fought and won the Battle of Britain in the skies?

Or maybe you should stop reading the Mail and think up some opinions of your own?

Smeg for a fridge you are ok mate!

allgood wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
As many commentators and sports writers predicted, it was only a brief matter of time before the heroics and outstanding sportsmanship of the London Olympics were long forgotten and moronic football fans from the gutters took over the sports headlines once more.

Coming after the disgraceful treatment of young England players in Serbia and the attack on a goalkeeper in the Leeds-Sheffield Wednesday derby, one is bound to ask: will anything ever change in football? Ironic, isn't it, that the world's most popular sport is the one that seems to attract more of the neanderthal scum from the lower orders than any other? I cannot think of any other sport in which such mayhem regularly happens.

Don't think this will be the last incident. There will be many, many more until we as a supposed civilised society find some way of dealing with these animals. The problem seems to be that as they are of such low mentality and IQ, they have nothing else in their sad little lives other than to exhibit tribal hatred.

I'd like to see special prisons on the lines of the American &quot;boot camps" set up in which offenders are treated to such harsh regimes that they will think twice or several times about ever causing trouble again.

The only fight I saw at the stadium last season was at a Saracens game.

Yep I saw a punch up with a Sarries and Gloucester fan, who looked like he was the product of a brother and sister marriage. Strange things are reproduced around the Forest of Dean!
Point is stop looking at football as the root of all society's ills. You cannot compare Olympics with it.
Anything wrong with this country is down to the Liblabcon and our corrupt and ineffective police forces

Actually, Buckler, old boy, I haven't read the Sun or the Sport for many years, not since I retired when, as a senior executive, it was compulsory to read ALL newspapers from the sport to the Financial Times in case the editor tried to catch you out! I even stopped reading the NoW the day I left because it had long ceased to be the newspaper I joined. Anyone who keeps dragging up this pathetic old slur must be a very sad little, semi-literate soul who can think of no other arguments.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt; Was anyone on this post is the garden? I was, the first spit and item thrown came from within the garden. The only things thrown into the garden were the plastic glasses the Watford fans had thrown out.
&gt; Very one sided account including from mr price. One Watford fan was continually throwing said glasses, shaking the gate like he really wanted to get through and confront the posh when he simply could have walked through the door. Yes there were young families, yes it it was uncomfortable and intimidating, but one sided? 6 of one as I saw it :-(&lt;

Who cares who started it or whether it was six of one and half a dozen of the other? I think you just made my point that only football fans behave in such a fashion. I don't recall reading about cricket, rugby, cycling, tennis, athletics fans, etc, behaving like this because it seems to be only football fans who are sufficiently low life.

Roy,I was in the garden. Unprovoked attack on Watford fans is exactly what happend,as Mr.Price said. What are we supposed to do? Stand and get attacked,or run inside while they spit and shout abuse? I was with the girl who had a object thrown in her face and I can assure you that was before any objects were thrown over. They were vile idiots looking for trouble. Six of one is a discusting account of what happend

Well, they were from Peterborough!

History tells us that Peterborough was a fairly quiet, nondescript little place until it was designated as a New Town in 1967 and had to take a lot of the overspill of the London gutters.

Holly68 im not sure who you are but i dont appreciate you commenting on my behalf! if people want to know what has happened to me and my face then i will tell them myself. And you need to get all of the facts before you comment as the police did not interview me.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Oh dear, the voice of youth gives vent to its semi-literate ramblings from its priviliged position as the recipient of a comprehensive education at some sink school.

As it happens, the Mail's opinions are largely shared by millions of peope in Middle England, young and old, the better educated and the more sophisticated. You know, that portion of society whose lips don't move, mouthing the words, when they are struggling to read the Sun or the Star, the Beano or the latest twitters from cretinous, moronic footballers.

The Mails opinions are not shared by millions. They are fed to millions who don't have the wit to think for themselves. I don't read any papers because they are yesterdays news or worse, an opinion on yesterdays news designed to create a reaction. Much like you are doing right now. For the record I don't believe you even hold these silly views and sweeping generational. You just can't help yourself. Maybe old habits die hard.

Little Miss Hornet wrote:
Holly68 im not sure who you are but i dont appreciate you commenting on my behalf! if people want to know what has happened to me and my face then i will tell them myself. And you need to get all of the facts before you comment as the police did not interview me.

I haven't "named you", I mention you as a "girl".

Plus you did post "I spoke to the police and they didn't seem to care" on the Y&R Facebook page this morning.

Plus I did speak to you on Saturday after the match .... And you explained exactly what happened.

So I've reposted "in support of you" and annoyance at what happened, what's the problem ?

>The Mails opinions are not shared by millions. They are fed to millions who don't have the wit to think for themselves.<

And what would you say about those cretins who are so thick and ignorant they can't even read The Sun, probably because they have difficulty in spelling their own name? I suspect we are talking about quite a lot of football fans here.

Standards of literacy and numeracy have declined substantially since the 1960s, almost certainly because of comprehensive education.

Holly68 wrote:

Little Miss Hornet wrote:
Holly68 im not sure who you are but i dont appreciate you commenting on my behalf! if people want to know what has happened to me and my face then i will tell them myself. And you need to get all of the facts before you comment as the police did not interview me.

I haven't &quot;named you", I mention you as a "girl".

Plus you did post "I spoke to the police and they didn't seem to care" on the Y&amp;R Facebook page this morning.

Plus I did speak to you on Saturday after the match .... And you explained exactly what happened.

So I've reposted "in support of you" and annoyance at what happened, what's the problem ?

Plus the secretary of the pub (who I was with when he spoke to a Peterborough Director) confirms he was to send the pictures to Peterborough. Hopefully they will do sOmething nice for you as an Apology.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;The Mails opinions are not shared by millions. They are fed to millions who don't have the wit to think for themselves.&lt;

And what would you say about those cretins who are so thick and ignorant they can't even read The Sun, probably because they have difficulty in spelling their own name? I suspect we are talking about quite a lot of football fans here.

Standards of literacy and numeracy have declined substantially since the 1960s, almost certainly because of comprehensive education.

Ah Roy your snobbery and self perceived superiority is astounding, alongside your one man war against football.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Actually, Buckler, old boy, I haven't read the Sun or the Sport for many years, not since I retired when, as a senior executive, it was compulsory to read ALL newspapers from the sport to the Financial Times in case the editor tried to catch you out! I even stopped reading the NoW the day I left because it had long ceased to be the newspaper I joined. Anyone who keeps dragging up this pathetic old slur must be a very sad little, semi-literate soul who can think of no other arguments.

STOCKDILL NOT EVERYONE KNOWS YOU WORKED FOR THE NEWS OF THE WORLD. I'm just letting them know . Sorry if its a slur on your boring old name!

lutondown, I suggest you read now and then the brilliant column on the back page of the sports section of the Mail on Sunday by Patrick Collins, arguably the best and most perceptive sports writer in the UK media and a very old friend and colleague of mine.

Patrick writes in a manner that has not been achieved since the late, lamented Ian Wooldridge, also of the Mail. But, then, I wouldn't expect simple football fans to appreciate the use of such prose and the English language. Such outstanding writing is not normally associated with sports journalism.

I think if you read Pat Collins you will find he states the truth on just about every occasion. But, then, few people associated with football enjoy hearing the truth because they either don't understand it or can't take it.

My own attitude is not snobbery but a simple understanding and acceptance of the fact that those of us who had an old-fashioned grammar school education in the 1950s ARE basically superior because we had a basic education in literacy and numeracy which does not seem to happen today.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
lutondown, I suggest you read now and then the brilliant column on the back page of the sports section of the Mail on Sunday by Patrick Collins, arguably the best and most perceptive sports writer in the UK media and a very old friend and colleague of mine.

Patrick writes in a manner that has not been achieved since the late, lamented Ian Wooldridge, also of the Mail. But, then, I wouldn't expect simple football fans to appreciate the use of such prose and the English language. Such outstanding writing is not normally associated with sports journalism.

I think if you read Pat Collins you will find he states the truth on just about every occasion. But, then, few people associated with football enjoy hearing the truth because they either don't understand it or can't take it.

My own attitude is not snobbery but a simple understanding and acceptance of the fact that those of us who had an old-fashioned grammar school education in the 1950s ARE basically superior because we had a basic education in literacy and numeracy which does not seem to happen today.

I cannot abide Patrick Collins and his anti English asides. A Fenian Scot, a dour and bitter writer if ever I saw one. You journos are a joke,never reporting the real issues like the decimation of our country. Liars and fabricators and rotten to the core.
Sad thing is papers like the sun decide who governs us, and the media are the lackeys of the rich inner circle.
Now leave us to talk football, or grunt among ourselves as you would believe.
Sorry about the new paragraph, I'm getting above my literary station.

Sorry buckler, old boy, but anyone who has to spell out their message in capital letters has just indicated how sad and moronic they are.

Perhaps you couldn't work out how to release the Caps key on your keyboard? It's on the left-hand side and has an icon of a little arrow pointing upwards.

Dear me.....the mentality of football fans defies belief!

Little Miss Hornet wrote:
Holly68 im not sure who you are but i dont appreciate you commenting on my behalf! if people want to know what has happened to me and my face then i will tell them myself. And you need to get all of the facts before you comment as the police did not interview me.

For the record, Little Miss Hornet and Holly68 just cleared the Air (in private) Lol

Anyway Let's hope Peterborough make a nice gesture by way of apology ....

I owe Little Miss Hornet a drink x

Actually, lutondown old son, Patrick Collins is from an Irish background, not Scots.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Actually, lutondown old son, Patrick Collins is from an Irish background, not Scots.

You obviously overlooked the Fenian bit, and just to bring you up to speed on real history, the scots are an irish tribe that emigrated to land of the Picts where they overran and assimilated with the Picts.
And as Collins is so for Scotland every time we play them at any sport, one could be forgiven for thinking he was a sweaty.
He, that fat clown Samuels, you all the same...tools

Well, let's face it, they're both little nations of little consequence, aren't they? Not in the same league as we English.

But I would still say that Patrick Collins is a brilliant writer whose wise words must make a lot of the criminal scum in football feel very shaky when they read him on Sundays.

Might see you at Cardiff Buckler ? What about LD ?

Holly68 wrote:
Might see you at Cardiff Buckler ? What about LD ?

No Buckler don't want someone of my size and social standing in his roller.
Well that pukka pie I'd wrapped up for Christmas for him as now been unceremoniously unwrapped and fed to my Dog.
And seriously looked at coach but back too late,and I do have a business to attend!
Don't want to miss too much at the moment!

What annoys me most about all of this is the reaction of the police, last year the Millwall fans attacked the family end and I was struck by a chair and I had my two lads with me, one 14 and one 10. The older one was being threatened to have his head smashed in and the younger one was obviously upset, I went to see the chief officer in front of 30 other police and asked him if they were going to be contained or let go at the final whistle? What was the reply???? I don't know! It's like they don't want to get involved and offer us no protection, if I had retaliated I bet they would have nicked me on the spot. Wake up Herts police and sort it out!

stewbyhorn wrote:
What annoys me most about all of this is the reaction of the police, last year the Millwall fans attacked the family end and I was struck by a chair and I had my two lads with me, one 14 and one 10. The older one was being threatened to have his head smashed in and the younger one was obviously upset, I went to see the chief officer in front of 30 other police and asked him if they were going to be contained or let go at the final whistle? What was the reply???? I don't know! It's like they don't want to get involved and offer us no protection, if I had retaliated I bet they would have nicked me on the spot. Wake up Herts police and sort it out!

Bring back pc 48 he would have sorted them!
We hate 48...! But he didn't mess about!

So you couldn't sleep either, eh?

Roy Stockdill wrote:
So you couldn't sleep either, eh?

No, up for work! No rest for the wicked and God, I'm wicked

I'm working too, writing an article for a family history magazine that has to be with the editor by the end of today, otherwise I'll miss my deadline and not get paid!

BTW, you might be interested in my latest blog at: http://blog.findmypa
st.co.uk/2012/10/fam
ous-family-trees-gab
by-logan/

The subject, as you can see, is Gabby Logan, every male football fan's fantasy woman and, of course, the daughter of Terry Yorath, former Leeds Utd and Welsh international skipper.

Perhaps it's not so widely known that she and Aidy Boothroyd were both survivors of the Bradford City fire. He was 14 and she was 12 at the time. So you see, I do actually know a bit about football after all.

Any chance of any singing at the Vic ! For 15000 people that was embarrassing on saturday.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
lutondown, I suggest you read now and then the brilliant column on the back page of the sports section of the Mail on Sunday by Patrick Collins, arguably the best and most perceptive sports writer in the UK media and a very old friend and colleague of mine.

Patrick writes in a manner that has not been achieved since the late, lamented Ian Wooldridge, also of the Mail. But, then, I wouldn't expect simple football fans to appreciate the use of such prose and the English language. Such outstanding writing is not normally associated with sports journalism.

I think if you read Pat Collins you will find he states the truth on just about every occasion. But, then, few people associated with football enjoy hearing the truth because they either don't understand it or can't take it.

My own attitude is not snobbery but a simple understanding and acceptance of the fact that those of us who had an old-fashioned grammar school education in the 1950s ARE basically superior because we had a basic education in literacy and numeracy which does not seem to happen today.

wow, a real live dinosaur !!

>wow, a real live dinosaur !!<

As opposed to a real live moronic cretin, you mean? Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?

Actually I watched a very interesting programme last night on BBC2 called Prehistoric Autopsy which focused on scientists, archaeologists and anthropogists constructing a lifelike model of a Neanderthal Man as he might have looked something like 12,000 years ago. The final product was quite remarkably similar to many modern-day football fans!

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;wow, a real live dinosaur !!&lt;

As opposed to a real live moronic cretin, you mean? Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?

Actually I watched a very interesting programme last night on BBC2 called Prehistoric Autopsy which focused on scientists, archaeologists and anthropogists constructing a lifelike model of a Neanderthal Man as he might have looked something like 12,000 years ago. The final product was quite remarkably similar to many modern-day football fans!

You have too much time on your hands Mr Stockdill. Neanderthal man looking like a modern day football fan - is that the comment of an intelligent well educated man ? Get yourself a hobby - perhaps bowling ??My education will stand up to yours I'm afraid (10 O's, 3 A's, 2.1 degree and professional qualification).

Presumably today's football fans are more likely to be better educated than those of 30-40 years ago due to rising attendance costs and the need to earn decent money to attend ? Just watch "the 101 great goals" VHS from the 1970s and cringe at the "you're gonna get your f****** heads kicked in" chant as Allan Clarke scores for Leeds at Middlesbro.

Football fans are far better behaved today but there will always be an element (smaller now than in the past) who take the tribal aspects too far and want to physically injure opposing fans/players.

Actually, I got up at 4.30 a.m. today to finish off an article I had to get to my editor, so am able to participate in this debate.

If you are as educated as you claim, then why do you find it necessary to make stupid observations about dinosaurs.

As for football fans being better educated today because, they have more money, I suspect some of them pay their costs out of their benefits.

Why should there "always be an element who take the tribal aspect too far"? Why can't football administrators, clubs, police and the majority of decent fans simply bite the bullet and outlaw them from the game? Given CCTV, clubs must be able to identify them, the police arrest them, clubs ban them from the grounds for life and magistrates chuck them into jail. All it needs is a concerted, unified effort by all concerned to sort out the minority trouble makers once for all. The trouble is, there is little willpower on the part of the vultures who now run football because they want the money.

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;wow, a real live dinosaur !!&lt;

As opposed to a real live moronic cretin, you mean? Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?

Actually I watched a very interesting programme last night on BBC2 called Prehistoric Autopsy which focused on scientists, archaeologists and anthropogists constructing a lifelike model of a Neanderthal Man as he might have looked something like 12,000 years ago. The final product was quite remarkably similar to many modern-day football fans!

You have too much time on your hands Mr Stockdill. Neanderthal man looking like a modern day football fan - is that the comment of an intelligent well educated man ? Get yourself a hobby - perhaps bowling ??My education will stand up to yours I'm afraid (10 O's, 3 A's, 2.1 degree and professional qualification).

Presumably today's football fans are more likely to be better educated than those of 30-40 years ago due to rising attendance costs and the need to earn decent money to attend ? Just watch &quot;the 101 great goals" VHS from the 1970s and cringe at the "you're gonna get your f****** heads kicked in" chant as Allan Clarke scores for Leeds at Middlesbro.

Football fans are far better behaved today but there will always be an element (smaller now than in the past) who take the tribal aspects too far and want to physically injure opposing fans/players.

Quinny, not only are you the fat one, but also the learned one!
Well I got a CSE 2 in English, and went on to pen that great football anthem..' Your gonna get your f'ing head kicked in'.
Now I'm off to drag my knuckles up to the gym!
U Horns

If we are going to cite education as a measure, I can trump yours Mickey. But that isn't the point.
I think what Roy is rather clumsily pointing out is that modern football fans still resort to this sickening behavior.
Motorsport, Rugby, Cricket and hundreds of other sports have massive followings, but rarely thuggery.
You do not, generally, get a punch in the face for shouting 'Come on Tim!' during Wimbledon.

lutondown wrote:

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;wow, a real live dinosaur !!&lt;

As opposed to a real live moronic cretin, you mean? Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?

Actually I watched a very interesting programme last night on BBC2 called Prehistoric Autopsy which focused on scientists, archaeologists and anthropogists constructing a lifelike model of a Neanderthal Man as he might have looked something like 12,000 years ago. The final product was quite remarkably similar to many modern-day football fans!

You have too much time on your hands Mr Stockdill. Neanderthal man looking like a modern day football fan - is that the comment of an intelligent well educated man ? Get yourself a hobby - perhaps bowling ??My education will stand up to yours I'm afraid (10 O's, 3 A's, 2.1 degree and professional qualification).

Presumably today's football fans are more likely to be better educated than those of 30-40 years ago due to rising attendance costs and the need to earn decent money to attend ? Just watch &quot;the 101 great goals" VHS from the 1970s and cringe at the "you're gonna get your f****** heads kicked in" chant as Allan Clarke scores for Leeds at Middlesbro.

Football fans are far better behaved today but there will always be an element (smaller now than in the past) who take the tribal aspects too far and want to physically injure opposing fans/players.

Quinny, not only are you the fat one, but also the learned one!
Well I got a CSE 2 in English, and went on to pen that great football anthem..' Your gonna get your f'ing head kicked in'.
Now I'm off to drag my knuckles up to the gym!
U Horns

LD - I happily sang along to that and the equally themed "you're going home in a watford ambulance" ....do i owe you royalties ??

Nor do pitched battles between rival supporters break out in a Test Match at Lord's or between Yorkists and Lancastrians in the Roses Match at Headingley or Old Trafford.

And in rugby, both codes, the only thuggery is usually on the field!

This is because, as I have repeatedly pointed out, football is the only sport that seems to attract the lower elements of society. In times gone by football fans would have been those fighting for a place near the front at public hangings and beheadings.

LSC wrote:
If we are going to cite education as a measure, I can trump yours Mickey. But that isn't the point.
I think what Roy is rather clumsily pointing out is that modern football fans still resort to this sickening behavior.
Motorsport, Rugby, Cricket and hundreds of other sports have massive followings, but rarely thuggery.
You do not, generally, get a punch in the face for shouting 'Come on Tim!' during Wimbledon.

No but you do get a very stern "Quiet please..." !!

Not trying to say I'm the cleverest, just responding to the "Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?" comment.

Football will always be more of a working man's game and I'd hate it to be wholly lost to the prawn sandwich brigade. We need more singing, atmosphere and noise at the vic but the chanting at the L vs Sheff W game was sickening. Yes they should throw the book at them but at a time when policing costs are being reduced and prisons are nearly full sadly i don't think they will ever completely eliminate that small minority.

ps hope Sean goes for and gets the palace job !

There is nothing wrong with it being a working man's game and I agree about the prawn sandwich brigade. However, at risk of repeating myself, I say again that when I used to go to matches regularly in the 1950s I simply cannot recall any incidents of the type we have been seeing from the 1970s onwards. A gang of us lads regularly used to follow a team to away grounds and I don't remember ever being threatened by home supporters.

Maybe as LSC said, Britain was still recovering from the war and there was a "Let's all pull together" national unity that has sadly been long lost.

As for full prisons, there's a simple solution to that - build more of them! Aren't there a few redundant oil rigs and wartime fortresses in the North Sea that could be pressed into service?

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

LSC wrote:
If we are going to cite education as a measure, I can trump yours Mickey. But that isn't the point.
I think what Roy is rather clumsily pointing out is that modern football fans still resort to this sickening behavior.
Motorsport, Rugby, Cricket and hundreds of other sports have massive followings, but rarely thuggery.
You do not, generally, get a punch in the face for shouting 'Come on Tim!' during Wimbledon.

No but you do get a very stern &quot;Quiet please..." !!

Not trying to say I'm the cleverest, just responding to the "Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?" comment.

Football will always be more of a working man's game and I'd hate it to be wholly lost to the prawn sandwich brigade. We need more singing, atmosphere and noise at the vic but the chanting at the L vs Sheff W game was sickening. Yes they should throw the book at them but at a time when policing costs are being reduced and prisons are nearly full sadly i don't think they will ever completely eliminate that small minority.

I agree that football is a bit different, and that the passion of the crowd plays a part in lifting the team. I doubt Micheal Schumacher ever heard a crowd chant in his life and raised his driving in response, but football players have often talked of the crowd being the 12th man.

I just don't get the 'punching other people' part.

LSC wrote:
If we are going to cite education as a measure, I can trump yours Mickey. But that isn't the point.
I think what Roy is rather clumsily pointing out is that modern football fans still resort to this sickening behavior.
Motorsport, Rugby, Cricket and hundreds of other sports have massive followings, but rarely thuggery.
You do not, generally, get a punch in the face for shouting 'Come on Tim!' during Wimbledon.

Yes but I bet you can't boast your as badly educated as me
That's the price for going to Leggatts Way a school so good Maggie had it shut down!
Who said life was a level playing field...?

References to the "working man's game" might make us reflect on how much the working classes have changed as well as society. Is there such a thing as the working class any more? I tend to doubt it. Many people who once upon a time would cheerfully acknowledge being working class are now upwardly mobile and regard themselves as being middle class, while a minority have fallen out of the old working classes and become what is now called the underclass, i.e. those at the very bottom of the social pile from which the football yobs have emerged.

In Victorian times and well into the 20th century, working men had dignity and sought education through libraries and institutions like the Workers' Educational Association as a means of improving their lives. They were ambitious for their children and didn't want them to spend their days down the pit or toiling in mills as their fathers and grandfathers had done for generations.

Go into the homes of some of the underclass today and I would take a guess the only book you'll find is the one they tot up their benefits in!

LSC wrote:

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

LSC wrote:
If we are going to cite education as a measure, I can trump yours Mickey. But that isn't the point.
I think what Roy is rather clumsily pointing out is that modern football fans still resort to this sickening behavior.
Motorsport, Rugby, Cricket and hundreds of other sports have massive followings, but rarely thuggery.
You do not, generally, get a punch in the face for shouting 'Come on Tim!' during Wimbledon.

No but you do get a very stern &quot;Quiet please..." !!

Not trying to say I'm the cleverest, just responding to the "Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?" comment.

Football will always be more of a working man's game and I'd hate it to be wholly lost to the prawn sandwich brigade. We need more singing, atmosphere and noise at the vic but the chanting at the L vs Sheff W game was sickening. Yes they should throw the book at them but at a time when policing costs are being reduced and prisons are nearly full sadly i don't think they will ever completely eliminate that small minority.

I agree that football is a bit different, and that the passion of the crowd plays a part in lifting the team. I doubt Micheal Schumacher ever heard a crowd chant in his life and raised his driving in response, but football players have often talked of the crowd being the 12th man.

I just don't get the 'punching other people' part.

I see Rugby again is held up as shining example of sportsmanship! Having played as a loose head prop and having punched and been punched, why I ask is it deemed any less violent than two soccer thugs punching each other?
No difference really is there when you come to think of it?
Just one note though, can't really remember two fans punching each other it's usually a kick then retreat twenty paces to ensure not to get kicked back!
Suppose I just contradicted myself...as I do!

>I agree that football is a bit different, and that the passion of the crowd plays a part in lifting the team.<

Go to a rugby league derby game between, say, Wigan and St Helens or Leeds Rhinos and Bradford Bulls and you will hear just as much passion. And though I've been to a rugby union match in Wales, I suspect they get pretty passionate too. But you don't hear about clashes between rival supporters.

And can there be any doubt the passion of the fans helped Andy Murray to thrash his long time rival Roger Federer to win the gold medal in the Olympics? And what about the sensational support for Team GBs' fantastic cyclists that almost took the roof off the velodrome? Again, passion in plenty. But the only violence I saw was that of the Australian Anna Meares who cheated Victoria Pendleton out of a second gold medal by elbowing her viciously in the ribs!

Sorry, I meant to say I've never been to a rugby union game in Wales.

"I see Rugby again is held up as shining example of sportsmanship! Having played as a loose head prop and having punched and been punched, why I ask is it deemed any less violent than two soccer thugs punching each other?
No difference really is there when you come to think of it?"

The punching and kicking within sport is to gain an advantage. It's cheating, but I understand it.
But if I'm in the crowd and kick someone in the head purely because they were born in Wigan, I'm not sure quite what I achieved there!

LSC wrote:
&quot;I see Rugby again is held up as shining example of sportsmanship! Having played as a loose head prop and having punched and been punched, why I ask is it deemed any less violent than two soccer thugs punching each other?
No difference really is there when you come to think of it?"

The punching and kicking within sport is to gain an advantage. It's cheating, but I understand it.
But if I'm in the crowd and kick someone in the head purely because they were born in Wigan, I'm not sure quite what I achieved there!

You really need to finish my post LSC.
All I can really add is sometimes passion spills over, it happens in all sports and sometimes among fans.
And I can tell you, some of the stuff that goes on in the scrum is very unsporting! Eye gouging, punching, biting ( yes all if those things) i dont think its done to gain a yard but out of pure adrenaline and violence.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Nor do pitched battles between rival supporters break out in a Test Match at Lord's or between Yorkists and Lancastrians in the Roses Match at Headingley or Old Trafford.

And in rugby, both codes, the only thuggery is usually on the field!

This is because, as I have repeatedly pointed out, football is the only sport that seems to attract the lower elements of society. In times gone by football fans would have been those fighting for a place near the front at public hangings and beheadings.

I attended all but two Watford home matches last season and saw no violence.
I also took in two Saracens games and at the second a brawl broke out when some very drunk and I suppose well educated Hooray Henry's upset some family groups with their obnoxious behaviour.
The Plebs who gave them a hiding obviously didn't respect their so called betters.

allgood wrote:

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Nor do pitched battles between rival supporters break out in a Test Match at Lord's or between Yorkists and Lancastrians in the Roses Match at Headingley or Old Trafford.

And in rugby, both codes, the only thuggery is usually on the field!

This is because, as I have repeatedly pointed out, football is the only sport that seems to attract the lower elements of society. In times gone by football fans would have been those fighting for a place near the front at public hangings and beheadings.

I attended all but two Watford home matches last season and saw no violence.
I also took in two Saracens games and at the second a brawl broke out when some very drunk and I suppose well educated Hooray Henry's upset some family groups with their obnoxious behaviour.
The Plebs who gave them a hiding obviously didn't respect their so called betters.

And to add to that these football fans that Roy dismisses as blood thirsty knuckle draggers would also more likely be the same ilk as those first over the top in WW1/WW2 and today in Afghanistan.
Great line from Rudyard " it's Tommy this and Tommy That...." You'll know it Roy, and it still applies today.

Roy Stockdill wrote:
Thanks for your comments, Tiger Bay.

What you call the &quot;tribal mentality" of a football crowd is what we better educated and more intelligent in society would describe as a mindless mob of morons and cretins on the march. As I have explained above, I simply do not recall it happening when I was younger and I went to lots of football matches in those days. People on the whole were better behaved then and better educated (before the introduction of dumbed-down comprehensive education in a hopelessly failed attempt to make everybody equal).

Your trivial comment about people sitting in offices and not understanding it is not even worthy of a response.

But you did anyway...You really are an arrogant little smug man..There are millions of good, honest, intelligent people who have come through 'dumbed down comprehensive education' If you are an example of what us mere council estate kids missed out on, then I think i and the millions of others are the lucky ones. If you really are stupid enough to lump everyone in the same bracket i.e. 'Mindless morons on the march' then it really is no surprise that you educated elite haven't been able to come up with a solution to a problem that has plagued football for 100 years (yes, 100 years, check your archives) You probably don't recall it from your younger days as sitting in main stands before returning home to the Cassiobury in daddys car probably blinded you to what the rest of us saw regularly. Ive no doubt your smart education will be able to shoot me down in flames and you will continue to spout your expertise gained at socialite lunches,,...back to your air-conned office now little man..

Actually, old boy, I have never lived at Cassiobury Park because I didn't live in Watford as a child. I came here when I was 24 to be chief reporter of the old West Herts Post (long gone) but I was only there less than a year before going to Fleet Street. You must know perfectly well where I have lived all these years because it's an open secret (unlike, the vast majority here, I am not afraid to put my head above the parapet and post in my own name).

What curious ideas you do have! My dad was a smallholder in Yorkshire when I was a toddler, eking out a bare living from a Pennine hill farm, then my folks had a couple of pubs near Halifax. Yes, he had a big car (a lovely old Armstrong Siddeley) and always dressed immaculately as if he was worth a million, but it was all show! He left under a thousand quid when he died.

I went to a very modest grammar school at Elland, a little mill town midway between Halifax and Huddersfield. Eton or Harrow it wasn't but they had dedicated teachers who gave us a good education and only about 400 pupils, not the giant comprehensives of today. I got a scholarship, BTW, by passing the old 11-plus exam - a pity they ever got rid of it because it really sorted out the sheep from the goats.

The trouble with comprehensive education is that it assumes all kids are the same and have the same ability levels, which of course is nonsense. The theory is that the brighter, more academic scholars will drag the rest up to their levels, whereas of course it works quite the other way, i.e. the less academic and less keen to work drag the rest down to the lowest common denominator.

I never saw anything wrong with the old system of grammar schools and secondary moderns. The grammars produced society's leaders and professionals, scientists, lawyers, doctors, politicians, businessmen, mathematicians, actors and so on, while the secondary-mods produced the artisans and tradespeople like plumbers, electricians, builders, mechanics, etc, who were just as vital to the smooth running of society. It was a system called "horses for courses" that worked perfectly well until Loony Left egalitarians mucked it all up.

BTW, I work at home, so my office is not air-conditioned! It just shows how little you really know about me, doesn't it?

Roy Stockdill wrote:
&gt;wow, a real live dinosaur !!&lt;

As opposed to a real live moronic cretin, you mean? Are you proud of your stupidity, ignorance and lack of education?

Actually I watched a very interesting programme last night on BBC2 called Prehistoric Autopsy which focused on scientists, archaeologists and anthropogists constructing a lifelike model of a Neanderthal Man as he might have looked something like 12,000 years ago. The final product was quite remarkably similar to many modern-day football fans!

What's an anthropogist? Do enlighten me.

lutondown wrote:

LSC wrote:
&quot;I see Rugby again is held up as shining example of sportsmanship! Having played as a loose head prop and having punched and been punched, why I ask is it deemed any less violent than two soccer thugs punching each other?
No difference really is there when you come to think of it?"

The punching and kicking within sport is to gain an advantage. It's cheating, but I understand it.
But if I'm in the crowd and kick someone in the head purely because they were born in Wigan, I'm not sure quite what I achieved there!

You really need to finish my post LSC.
All I can really add is sometimes passion spills over, it happens in all sports and sometimes among fans.
And I can tell you, some of the stuff that goes on in the scrum is very unsporting! Eye gouging, punching, biting ( yes all if those things) i dont think its done to gain a yard but out of pure adrenaline and violence.

I disagree. There are many biographies of footballers who admit they would be viscous to an opponent to establish who is boss and put them off their natural game. It wasn't for the fun of it or the occasion getting to them.
If I recall correctly, that famous picture of Vinnie Jones and Gazza; Vinnie has admitted he did it because Gazza would have played him off the park. He had to stop him.

>What's an anthropogist? Do enlighten me.<

It's an anthropologist whose lost a middle bit, so his study of the human behaviour and cultural development of primitive tribes like football fans isn't complete in its research and validity.

An illiterate, uneducated anthropologist, presumably...