Seventh Day Adventist Church HQ destroyed by fire (From Watford Observer)
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Seventh Day Adventist Church HQ destroyed by fire
3:23pm Sunday 16th November 2008 in
The British headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist Church has been destroyed by fire.
Firefigthers battled this afternoon to contain a devastating blaze at the organisation's Stanborough Park offices, in St Albans Road.
The nearby church building was not damaged.
Eyewitness Jo Hart said: “I really can’t believe what I’m seeing, smoke and flames are coming from all over the place. It looks like half the building is missing.
“There are police cars and ambulances everywhere.”
Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service said it was called to the blaze at around 2.10pm this afternoon.
Ten crews attended the scene. No casualties were reported.
Witness Paul Day saw part of the building collapse. He said: "We heard a noise like thunder as part of the roof was coming down. It's really bad there - it looks like the whole thing is ready to come down."
Did you see the fire? Call our newsdesk on 01923 216 372 or email nskinner@london.newsquest.co.uk
Comments(44)
Nightreader
says...
9:50pm Sun 16 Nov 08
Blimey..I hope nobody was injured.
Paradise Watford
says...
8:53am Mon 17 Nov 08
I heard that nobody was injured thankfully, it looks pretty bad doesn't it!
The rumour is that there was some work being done to the roof and that this may have had something to do with the fire starting, who knows.
Having just arrived at work it made me think what if my work place had burnt down.... Apart from giving a shout for joy and having a few days off how does a business/organisatio
n continue? How long would it take to get back to some sort of normality albeit in different offices? Would they have to make people unemployed maybe? Hope not, that would be the real tradegy of this story if that was to happen.
The rumour is that there was some work being done to the roof and that this may have had something to do with the fire starting, who knows.
Having just arrived at work it made me think what if my work place had burnt down.... Apart from giving a shout for joy and having a few days off how does a business/organisatio
n continue? How long would it take to get back to some sort of normality albeit in different offices? Would they have to make people unemployed maybe? Hope not, that would be the real tradegy of this story if that was to happen.
Roy Stockdill
says...
9:39am Mon 17 Nov 08
As the Seventh Day Adventists are one of those multi-billionaire churches founded and based in America (where else?) with somewhat curious beliefs but with vast worldwide interests, I suspect this will be no more than a minor blip for them. I assume they have insurance.
Moreover, I tend to doubt they have employees in the normal sense of the word. I imagine most of their administrative work is performed by church members who are volunteers (probably the same people who shove the church's literature through my door).
Not wishing, of course, to minimise the seriousness of this incident. I am very glad no-one was hurt.
Moreover, I tend to doubt they have employees in the normal sense of the word. I imagine most of their administrative work is performed by church members who are volunteers (probably the same people who shove the church's literature through my door).
Not wishing, of course, to minimise the seriousness of this incident. I am very glad no-one was hurt.
jaysus
says...
10:06am Mon 17 Nov 08
I'm glad that no one was hurt, thanks to baby Jesus.
Jesus saves! (either that or he wants a new church for Xmas)
Jesus saves! (either that or he wants a new church for Xmas)
Paradise Watford
says...
10:50am Mon 17 Nov 08
Roy, what would these curious beliefs be? Would they be any more curious than any and all other christian churches?
One of my neighbours are members of this church and the nicest people you could ever meet - neighbourly in the proper old fashioned sense of the word and with no ulterior motive (i.e. they've not bible bashed me, although they have invited me to their xmas carol concert this year).
I was curious about this church when my neighbours moved in as I didn't know much about them and after hunting around on the internet they seem to be just a regular church. I mean from what I saw all denominations have their own specific beliefs, their own interpretation of the bible but this church doesn’t seem to have any that are particularly far out.
One of my neighbours are members of this church and the nicest people you could ever meet - neighbourly in the proper old fashioned sense of the word and with no ulterior motive (i.e. they've not bible bashed me, although they have invited me to their xmas carol concert this year).
I was curious about this church when my neighbours moved in as I didn't know much about them and after hunting around on the internet they seem to be just a regular church. I mean from what I saw all denominations have their own specific beliefs, their own interpretation of the bible but this church doesn’t seem to have any that are particularly far out.
Roy Stockdill
says...
11:36am Mon 17 Nov 08
As a humanist and Darwinian, I regard all religious beliefs as curious and naive, not to mention medieval, superstitious twaddle.
I am sure Seventh Day Adventists are nice people and well-meaning but also gullible, and after reading a certain amount about them on the Internet (and there is a lot out there) I am not clear as to why they exist and what they actually believe they have that other churches don't provide.
You might also recall that it was extremist breakaway branches of the Seventh Day Adventists that were responsible for the infamous Jonestown Massacre 30 years ago and the Waco siege and shootout of 1993.
Both were lunatic cults that believed in the second coming of the so-called Messiah and believed this would signal the end of the world - well, for them, it did, but entirely through human madness and not through any divine providence.
I also have the strong suspicion that virtually all these religious cults that start in America are really just vast money-making exercises. Americans are very naive and the sort of people who fall for this rubbish, i.e. the Mormons, Scientology, the Moonies (though they were founded by a Korean), all of them simply exercises in raking in the millions.
If you want to find out what sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people believe, I suggest you go to the Watford Area Humanists' website at: http://www.wah.btik.
com/ or read our president John Dowdle's blog on this site.
I am sure Seventh Day Adventists are nice people and well-meaning but also gullible, and after reading a certain amount about them on the Internet (and there is a lot out there) I am not clear as to why they exist and what they actually believe they have that other churches don't provide.
You might also recall that it was extremist breakaway branches of the Seventh Day Adventists that were responsible for the infamous Jonestown Massacre 30 years ago and the Waco siege and shootout of 1993.
Both were lunatic cults that believed in the second coming of the so-called Messiah and believed this would signal the end of the world - well, for them, it did, but entirely through human madness and not through any divine providence.
I also have the strong suspicion that virtually all these religious cults that start in America are really just vast money-making exercises. Americans are very naive and the sort of people who fall for this rubbish, i.e. the Mormons, Scientology, the Moonies (though they were founded by a Korean), all of them simply exercises in raking in the millions.
If you want to find out what sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people believe, I suggest you go to the Watford Area Humanists' website at: http://www.wah.btik.
com/ or read our president John Dowdle's blog on this site.
Jimbobfury
says...
11:44am Mon 17 Nov 08
Sounds like it was the work of the Devil!
Tony Dee
says...
12:09pm Mon 17 Nov 08
In reply to Roy Stockdill's comments.
Many may see Humanists as the "well-meaning but gullible ones". If you wish to understand the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists I suggest you study the Bible rather than surfing the internet, this is never a great place to understand doctrines as anything can be written and taken for Gospel, excuse the pun.
You're correct in that the Waco sect were a breakaway group of Seventh Day Adventists, likewise the Columbine killers were staunch Darwinists, however I would hate to tar all evolutionists with the same brush.
It's rather ironic that you mention Scientology as a strange cult, considering there beliefs are cemented in Humanism.
I would check out the web site you suggested however I'm more interested in what "sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people believe"
Many may see Humanists as the "well-meaning but gullible ones". If you wish to understand the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists I suggest you study the Bible rather than surfing the internet, this is never a great place to understand doctrines as anything can be written and taken for Gospel, excuse the pun.
You're correct in that the Waco sect were a breakaway group of Seventh Day Adventists, likewise the Columbine killers were staunch Darwinists, however I would hate to tar all evolutionists with the same brush.
It's rather ironic that you mention Scientology as a strange cult, considering there beliefs are cemented in Humanism.
I would check out the web site you suggested however I'm more interested in what "sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people believe"
Andrew123
says...
12:15pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Roy, had a good look at your site and Humanism itself fills all the requirements of a religion. It takes faith to hold to it's views and promotes itself reaching out to others; doing good community projects in exactly the same way. Being hostile to anothers belief system will never win an argument or convert. Respect for others viewpoints however might possibly...
I am glad to see no-one was hurt - 10 firecrews must have been quite a blaze.
I am glad to see no-one was hurt - 10 firecrews must have been quite a blaze.
John Howard Norfolk
says...
12:21pm Mon 17 Nov 08
I would be sad if this devastating fire interferes with the running of Stanborough Park School at this site.
I remember many visits there to talk to older students and I have to say I was impressed by the courtesy and behaviour of the school's students.
As a retired school careers adviser who has spent almost twenty years working with Watford's teenagers I found this school's classrooms an unexpected oasis of calm learning.
I know the thread of this story is the fire damage but - as Roy Stockdill has raised the issue - it would be fascinating to find out whether the young well behaved kids they turn out after GCSE do go on to lead responsible adult lives or, as he hints, become naive converts to extremism.
RoyDV
says...
1:10pm Mon 17 Nov 08
May I as a life-long Seventh-day Adventist believer say that I see the hand of providence in the fact that the fire occurred when no-one was present in that building.
And to those who are convinced that Humanism is the most successful way of life in this currently very troubled world I want to say that world governments thus far have not shown a very good track record for the human managing of world economies! God could do a lot better for us if He was consulted more often on how to manage human affairs! After all He undoubtedly prevented the Stanborough fire from taking place when any of His people were in that building! So that was a merciful act! And one of the Adventist beliefs is that we have a merciful God! Now we have definite verification of that concept!
So please! let's be a bit reasonably tolerant of one anothers beliefs, even if we don't agree on each ones concepts. This world can be a much happier place for all if we do that, surely!
And to those who are convinced that Humanism is the most successful way of life in this currently very troubled world I want to say that world governments thus far have not shown a very good track record for the human managing of world economies! God could do a lot better for us if He was consulted more often on how to manage human affairs! After all He undoubtedly prevented the Stanborough fire from taking place when any of His people were in that building! So that was a merciful act! And one of the Adventist beliefs is that we have a merciful God! Now we have definite verification of that concept!
So please! let's be a bit reasonably tolerant of one anothers beliefs, even if we don't agree on each ones concepts. This world can be a much happier place for all if we do that, surely!
HertsPeter
says...
2:08pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Is it the 7th Day Adventists that like, don't do anyting on a Sunday, but it was OK for the emergency services to go and block the road and put the fire out etc? Just asking !
Tony Dee
says...
2:19pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Replying to HertsPeter...
No!
No!
Paradise Watford
says...
2:25pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Roy, if my memory serves me correctly the people involved in the jonestown massacre were not Seventh Day Adventist (if we're going to name names I seem to recall Jim Jones actually trained as a Methodist minister - ok I admit I googled that one!).
Whilst Waco did involved a number of ex Adventists the emphasis surely is on the 'ex'. I understand that David Koresh had been thrown out of the church when he was quite young due to his views that went against what the church believed/taught. I also understand that he was quite charismatic which was how he managed to drag some of those poor people down with him.
Think of any group of a decent size that ever existed and you're going to find an element in them that we would say 'went bad' but as someone has said in a previous post you can't tar them all with the same brush.
My knowledge is limited but I would imagine that ALL Christian churches believe in the second coming of Christ/Messiah - isnt that the whole point of Christianity?
I admit that I don't know much about humanist either (something else to research there I guess) but I did go to the funeral of a colleague who was one. I found the service to be quite devoid of any.... hope I guess. Strange word to use but I have been to a couple of funerals of people who were christians and there all the mourners, whilst sad at the person's passing, were also filled with hope and joy that their beloved would be in heaven. That really struck a chord with me and if I had to choose i'd go with those who had hope than those that seemed utterly defeated.
As for Darwinism I have to admit to being skeptical about the whole evolution thing. Again it just seems ultimately defeatest as the ultimate conclusion is that our lives are pointless and that eventually this earth will wear out and explode. At least Christians again seem to have a hope for the future and a purpose for their lives.
And yes you can get all sorts of views off the internet and need to be very careful what you believe or not.
What I can say is, again going on my neighbours, Adventists do seem to spend a lot of time reading their bibles as a way of testing what the church stands for as a way of confirming it for themselves as opposed to say blindly following the dictums of a leader such as the Pope.
I didn't mean to start a religious debate when I questioned Roy's posting but I did think your comment about 'curious beliefs' rather flippant. You are of course entitled to your beliefs and opinions, at the end of the day none of us know 100% do we
Whilst Waco did involved a number of ex Adventists the emphasis surely is on the 'ex'. I understand that David Koresh had been thrown out of the church when he was quite young due to his views that went against what the church believed/taught. I also understand that he was quite charismatic which was how he managed to drag some of those poor people down with him.
Think of any group of a decent size that ever existed and you're going to find an element in them that we would say 'went bad' but as someone has said in a previous post you can't tar them all with the same brush.
My knowledge is limited but I would imagine that ALL Christian churches believe in the second coming of Christ/Messiah - isnt that the whole point of Christianity?
I admit that I don't know much about humanist either (something else to research there I guess) but I did go to the funeral of a colleague who was one. I found the service to be quite devoid of any.... hope I guess. Strange word to use but I have been to a couple of funerals of people who were christians and there all the mourners, whilst sad at the person's passing, were also filled with hope and joy that their beloved would be in heaven. That really struck a chord with me and if I had to choose i'd go with those who had hope than those that seemed utterly defeated.
As for Darwinism I have to admit to being skeptical about the whole evolution thing. Again it just seems ultimately defeatest as the ultimate conclusion is that our lives are pointless and that eventually this earth will wear out and explode. At least Christians again seem to have a hope for the future and a purpose for their lives.
And yes you can get all sorts of views off the internet and need to be very careful what you believe or not.
What I can say is, again going on my neighbours, Adventists do seem to spend a lot of time reading their bibles as a way of testing what the church stands for as a way of confirming it for themselves as opposed to say blindly following the dictums of a leader such as the Pope.
I didn't mean to start a religious debate when I questioned Roy's posting but I did think your comment about 'curious beliefs' rather flippant. You are of course entitled to your beliefs and opinions, at the end of the day none of us know 100% do we
Roy Stockdill
says...
2:43pm Mon 17 Nov 08
The extraordinary responses from Seventh Day Adventists to this drama only goes to illustrate my belief that they are gullible folks. On investigation, this fire will prove to be entirely due to human, mechanical or technological circumstances. It's too soon to talk about arson but that is one possibility. Another is a slow-burning electrical fault. No doubt the fire brigade investigators are already at work.
But, really, to suggest that it was God's work that the fire occurred on a Sunday (Adventists celebrate their Sabbath on a Saturday) when nobody was in the building is the stuff of fantasy-land! The simple laws of chance dictate that if there is to be a fire in a particular building the likelihood of it occurring on a Sunday is one-in-seven - not in themselves particularly long odds. Now multiply that figure by the millions of buildings that exist throughout the country and you will see there is a likelihood of many thousands-to-one ON - in other words, near certainty - that a fire will happen somewhere in Britain on a Sunday. That it happened in this particular building is pure chance, absolutely nothing more, and God doesn't come into it. This was an act of pure coincidence governed by physical laws, example of which are countless.
How anyone can believe in a totally mythical and supernatural figure that defies all known laws of physics, science and the universe is quite beyond me. Perhaps the Adventists can explain how it is that if God is looking after them, as they seem to believe, he isn't looking after all the people dying in Iraq, Aghanistan and Africa? I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent and everywhere.
But, really, to suggest that it was God's work that the fire occurred on a Sunday (Adventists celebrate their Sabbath on a Saturday) when nobody was in the building is the stuff of fantasy-land! The simple laws of chance dictate that if there is to be a fire in a particular building the likelihood of it occurring on a Sunday is one-in-seven - not in themselves particularly long odds. Now multiply that figure by the millions of buildings that exist throughout the country and you will see there is a likelihood of many thousands-to-one ON - in other words, near certainty - that a fire will happen somewhere in Britain on a Sunday. That it happened in this particular building is pure chance, absolutely nothing more, and God doesn't come into it. This was an act of pure coincidence governed by physical laws, example of which are countless.
How anyone can believe in a totally mythical and supernatural figure that defies all known laws of physics, science and the universe is quite beyond me. Perhaps the Adventists can explain how it is that if God is looking after them, as they seem to believe, he isn't looking after all the people dying in Iraq, Aghanistan and Africa? I thought he was supposed to be omnipotent and everywhere.
Paradise Watford
says...
2:57pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Hertspeter, to answer your question no.
Your post seemed quite bitter that the road had to be blocked off, hardly the churches fault. Would you rather the fire brigade had not bothered because it caused an inconvenience? That would set a rather unpleasant precedence!
Adventist if I get this right don't believe in working on their Sabbath day as it is a day of rest (God rested on the seventh day after creating the world and gave it to his people to rest also or something along those lines) which is fair enough. I’m sure that they wouldn’t be opposed to essential things being done (I understand that they run a number of hospitals around the world, its not as if the nursing staff etc. are going to not care for patients on their Sabbath day is it? Didn't Jesus, according to the bible, do good deeds/miracles on the sabbath day?). I think there are some sections of the Jewish community that might go along with fires not being put out on the Sabbath day but I would imagine they are the ultra legalistic part.
Hertspeter you got the day wrong too, the one thing that seems to really stand the Adventist church apart from others is that they worship on Saturday not Sunday. However from what I understand most churches and denominations would agree that Saturday, not Sunday, was the original sabbath day (without going into detail - cause I cant remember most of it and I seem to write too much on here anyway - it can be proved historically). When I was in Mauritious a few years ago I remember being told that the Catholic church in that country had changed back to Saturday as their Sabbath day.
On that note I have travelled quite a lot around the world and love picking up phrases etc. Something that I have noticed is that in many languages the word for Saturday is also the word for Sabbath in that language.
Hmm, maybe I should take a theology course I’m finding this quite interesting.
Oh Roy, don’t think anyone is saying that it was God’s work that the fire started on a Sunday just God’s work that there were not more people in the building therefore reducing the risk of injury or death. And it isn’t just Adventists who subscribe events in the world to God – I would refer to my previous post, none of us, not even humanist, know 100% so rather than calling people names just because of their beliefs how’s about respecting each others beliefs.
Isn't it interesting how a building burning down can result in such a conversation as this?
Your post seemed quite bitter that the road had to be blocked off, hardly the churches fault. Would you rather the fire brigade had not bothered because it caused an inconvenience? That would set a rather unpleasant precedence!
Adventist if I get this right don't believe in working on their Sabbath day as it is a day of rest (God rested on the seventh day after creating the world and gave it to his people to rest also or something along those lines) which is fair enough. I’m sure that they wouldn’t be opposed to essential things being done (I understand that they run a number of hospitals around the world, its not as if the nursing staff etc. are going to not care for patients on their Sabbath day is it? Didn't Jesus, according to the bible, do good deeds/miracles on the sabbath day?). I think there are some sections of the Jewish community that might go along with fires not being put out on the Sabbath day but I would imagine they are the ultra legalistic part.
Hertspeter you got the day wrong too, the one thing that seems to really stand the Adventist church apart from others is that they worship on Saturday not Sunday. However from what I understand most churches and denominations would agree that Saturday, not Sunday, was the original sabbath day (without going into detail - cause I cant remember most of it and I seem to write too much on here anyway - it can be proved historically). When I was in Mauritious a few years ago I remember being told that the Catholic church in that country had changed back to Saturday as their Sabbath day.
On that note I have travelled quite a lot around the world and love picking up phrases etc. Something that I have noticed is that in many languages the word for Saturday is also the word for Sabbath in that language.
Hmm, maybe I should take a theology course I’m finding this quite interesting.
Oh Roy, don’t think anyone is saying that it was God’s work that the fire started on a Sunday just God’s work that there were not more people in the building therefore reducing the risk of injury or death. And it isn’t just Adventists who subscribe events in the world to God – I would refer to my previous post, none of us, not even humanist, know 100% so rather than calling people names just because of their beliefs how’s about respecting each others beliefs.
Isn't it interesting how a building burning down can result in such a conversation as this?
Tony Dee
says...
3:21pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Yes Roy God is omnipotent and everywhere. However the Bible does not only preach God, it also reveals a character named satan, described as the "Prince of this World". Obviously you don't believe in the existence of satan but that is how I would Biblically answer your question regarding people dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Africa.
No coincidence for mind that as society wants less and less to do with God, the world is becoming more and more diabolical. Take knife crime in the UK for example, we teach kids that they come from animals, so we now get them acting like animals, killing each other almost indiscriminately. Of course if you believe in evolution then what we believe to be morally right or wrong is just a by-product of evolution. I could stab someone tonight and it would just be arbitrary really given that we could just as easily evolved believing it's okay to rape, murder, etc. Of course the more sensible and plausible explanation to our sense of right and wrong would be that we have been given this sense by an Intelligent Designer, one whose mind is infinitely more intelligent than ours. However if we were all to believe this then the extremely finite minds of humanists would have to think of something else to do in their spare time rather than ridiculing others for their beliefs.
No coincidence for mind that as society wants less and less to do with God, the world is becoming more and more diabolical. Take knife crime in the UK for example, we teach kids that they come from animals, so we now get them acting like animals, killing each other almost indiscriminately. Of course if you believe in evolution then what we believe to be morally right or wrong is just a by-product of evolution. I could stab someone tonight and it would just be arbitrary really given that we could just as easily evolved believing it's okay to rape, murder, etc. Of course the more sensible and plausible explanation to our sense of right and wrong would be that we have been given this sense by an Intelligent Designer, one whose mind is infinitely more intelligent than ours. However if we were all to believe this then the extremely finite minds of humanists would have to think of something else to do in their spare time rather than ridiculing others for their beliefs.
Roy Stockdill
says...
3:23pm Mon 17 Nov 08
>Oh Roy, don’t think anyone is saying that it was God’s work that the fire started on a Sunday just God’s work that there were not more people in the building therefore reducing the risk of injury or death. And it isn’t just Adventists who subscribe events in the world to God – I would refer to my previous post, none of us, not even humanist, know 100% so rather than calling people names just because of their beliefs how’s about respecting each others beliefs.<
The difference is that humanists base their beliefs on logic, common sense and a belief in only the physical world around them that can be proven to exist by scientific evidence. Those who believe in a God and other supernatural beings have, by definition and against all natural logic, proclaimed their belief in something that defies all the known physical laws of science and the universe. In other words, they believe in fantasy and fairy tales - a bit like believing in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy!
The difference is that humanists base their beliefs on logic, common sense and a belief in only the physical world around them that can be proven to exist by scientific evidence. Those who believe in a God and other supernatural beings have, by definition and against all natural logic, proclaimed their belief in something that defies all the known physical laws of science and the universe. In other words, they believe in fantasy and fairy tales - a bit like believing in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy!
Eraj
says...
3:25pm Mon 17 Nov 08
Roy,
It seemed by reading from all of these, that what we actually need to really worry about is you and the concept of humanism. You are talking about “sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people”!!
Let’s see:
Your first reaction was to develop 2 paragraphs on the multi billions of the church in question and their employees: should the first reaction to such dramatic event be about cynical comments on their income and workers?
And then you gave us a liner on what really matters, the fact that no one was hurt though the situation is extremely serious.
Not cut off from your self inspiration, you thrash those people at a dramatic time as this! Do you know them personally? Have you ever spent some personal time finding out from them what they are truly about?
Then to crown it all: you make a note as to advertise your website!!
Is this really the right time for all these? Are your comments to lead us somewhere?
May I just ask? Is your sense of sanity, sensible, logical and right-thinking complete as per the above?
Things that one learns when one is a true sanity, sensible, logical, right-minded person: no generalisation, not taking what others reports for truth but find out for yourself, when you search don’t be content with some artificial documentation which does not stand on solid ground, and keep quiet when you have no facts in hand
It seemed by reading from all of these, that what we actually need to really worry about is you and the concept of humanism. You are talking about “sane and sensible, logical, right-thinking people”!!
Let’s see:
Your first reaction was to develop 2 paragraphs on the multi billions of the church in question and their employees: should the first reaction to such dramatic event be about cynical comments on their income and workers?
And then you gave us a liner on what really matters, the fact that no one was hurt though the situation is extremely serious.
Not cut off from your self inspiration, you thrash those people at a dramatic time as this! Do you know them personally? Have you ever spent some personal time finding out from them what they are truly about?
Then to crown it all: you make a note as to advertise your website!!
Is this really the right time for all these? Are your comments to lead us somewhere?
May I just ask? Is your sense of sanity, sensible, logical and right-thinking complete as per the above?
Things that one learns when one is a true sanity, sensible, logical, right-minded person: no generalisation, not taking what others reports for truth but find out for yourself, when you search don’t be content with some artificial documentation which does not stand on solid ground, and keep quiet when you have no facts in hand
Minty
says...
4:20pm Mon 17 Nov 08
It is because of these sort of arguments (or strong opinions let's say)that wars start.
I don't disagree with religion (although I don't follow one myself) I do however think the world would be a better place if people kept their opinions to themselves (With regards to this subject)
I understand people have felt provoked to the point where they have to defend their beliefs in light of some rather strong Anti-religeous preaching.
I know it's a hippy thing to say (and I couldn't be further away from being one, I assure you) but why can't people just accept that others enjoy different things, and get over it. It's purely a matter of taste. I like beer, my wife likes wine. We both accept that each of us likes different things. Never have we been compelled to go to battle over who is right. The simple matter is that we are both right in our own minds and we are happy with that. I know that is way to simple an analogy, but why can't it be that simple.... ?
I don't disagree with religion (although I don't follow one myself) I do however think the world would be a better place if people kept their opinions to themselves (With regards to this subject)
I understand people have felt provoked to the point where they have to defend their beliefs in light of some rather strong Anti-religeous preaching.
I know it's a hippy thing to say (and I couldn't be further away from being one, I assure you) but why can't people just accept that others enjoy different things, and get over it. It's purely a matter of taste. I like beer, my wife likes wine. We both accept that each of us likes different things. Never have we been compelled to go to battle over who is right. The simple matter is that we are both right in our own minds and we are happy with that. I know that is way to simple an analogy, but why can't it be that simple.... ?
vhulbert
says...
9:26pm Mon 17 Nov 08
On behalf of those people who actually work in the building that was burnt down (and yes, there are 25 of us) we would simply like to thank the local community and residents in Watford who were so kind to us on Sunday and have sent us messages of encouragment since then. Aplogies that the road was closed - we certainly did not choose to have a fire and hope it did not cause too much inconvienience. We are also extremely grateful to the fire service who did a fantastic job.
Commenting on Roy's observations at the top of this long conversation, I would emphasise that our church is not rich in terms of money, but it is rich with a great diversity of people and a faith that can keep us positive even when our office has burnt down! Thanks again for all Observer readers and the Watford Community who have been so supportive. When the building eventually reopens we would welcome you all for a visit/open day.
Victor Hulbert.
Communication Director
Seventh-day Adventist Church HQ. UK and Ireland.
Commenting on Roy's observations at the top of this long conversation, I would emphasise that our church is not rich in terms of money, but it is rich with a great diversity of people and a faith that can keep us positive even when our office has burnt down! Thanks again for all Observer readers and the Watford Community who have been so supportive. When the building eventually reopens we would welcome you all for a visit/open day.
Victor Hulbert.
Communication Director
Seventh-day Adventist Church HQ. UK and Ireland.
lisiane
says...
10:22pm Mon 17 Nov 08
I hope that many of you will take the opportunity to visit the SDA Church HQ when it reopens in order to discover firsthand what it is SDA Christians believe in.
In the meantime if you have 3-4 hours to spare on a Friday night at 8.15pm you may want to join the group of young people who will be driving to London to distribute hot drinks, sandwiches, clothes etc to the homeless. The van leaves Stanborough Park Church at 8.30 to return approximately at midnight. Give it a try, I can guarantee you will enjoy the experience.
In the meantime if you have 3-4 hours to spare on a Friday night at 8.15pm you may want to join the group of young people who will be driving to London to distribute hot drinks, sandwiches, clothes etc to the homeless. The van leaves Stanborough Park Church at 8.30 to return approximately at midnight. Give it a try, I can guarantee you will enjoy the experience.
Barbara Kerr
says...
1:42am Tue 18 Nov 08
Hi, I am a third-generation Seventh Day Adventist.
My heart has hurt as I read the comments of what some people think Adventist believe. I have also been encouraged by those that have been influenced by friends and neighbors that are Adventists, and that you have seen Jesus in the way they live their lives.
To Roy and all those who seek truth above fiction and false teachings, I encourage you to study your Bibles.
When people ask me what Adventist's believe that is different from other religions, my answer is rather straight forward. It is not intended as a criticism to any other religious organization.
Adventist believe in keeping ALL 10 commandments of God. That includes observing the Seventh day Sabbath (Exodus 20) instead of worshiping on Sunday.
The absolute best documentary I have ever found on the history of the Sabbath being changed to Sunday can be found in a 5 DVD set entitled "The Seventh Day". It can be found at lltproductions.com and covers Creation through Old Testament times - 52 min. Hosted by veteran actor Hal Holbrook, part one of this five-part documentary series considers various views of human origins from ancient myths to Darwinism, and finds the most satisfactory answers in the book of Genesis. It recounts the loyalty and courage of people who saw the seventh-day Sabbath as a special sign between them and their Creator. Packed with special effects, brilliant graphics, and historical documentation. On DVD.
Author: LLT PRODUCTIONS
ISBN: 1-930920-10-5
Publisher: LLT PRODUCTIONS
This series answers questions about lost time in history and any possible question you could have. So if you can get your hands on a copy of the set, and you truly are searching for the truth, get ready to be amazed.
I would also like to recommend a book for you Roy. It is entitled "A Trip Into the Supernatural" by Roger Morneau. It is the story of a young man who was also a believer in Darwin and began dabbling in the supernatural. It is one of the BEST and most fascinating books I have ever read. You cannot put it down. I'm sure you can locate it on amazon.com.
Another key difference in Adventists beliefs is regarding the state of the dead. The Bible teaches that when you die you return to the dust of the earth and are asleep until the second coming of Christ. Most other churches teach that when you die you immediately go to heaven (or hell). There are many scriptures to support the state-of-the-dead belief (SDA do not ever base a doctrine on one verse of scripture -- there must be Biblical support).
Here are some texts for you to look up. If you don't have a Bible, I'm sure you can google the texts.
The story of Lazarus can be found in John 11. Verses 11 - 14 talk specifically about sleep and death. Be sure to read the entire chapter.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Talks about those that are "asleep" will be raised at the second coming of Jesus. Think about it, . . . if all the saints are already in heaven, who would Jesus becoming back to earth for anyway???
Psalms 6:5 Shows us that we are not aware of anything after we die. If we were floating around in heaven watching people on earth, wouldn't we be aware of what was going on?
Here are a few more texts on the subject. Be sure to read the last one! There are many more, but these are just a few to get you started on your search of truth.
Psalms 89:48. Isaiah 25:8. Ezekiel 18:32. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.
I know this is lengthy, but I just had to share. Jesus is coming soon. There isn't time for us to be ridiculing each other. We need to be lifting each other up and searching for truth with all our hearts. God bless you as you study these truths. I'm already praying for you!
My heart has hurt as I read the comments of what some people think Adventist believe. I have also been encouraged by those that have been influenced by friends and neighbors that are Adventists, and that you have seen Jesus in the way they live their lives.
To Roy and all those who seek truth above fiction and false teachings, I encourage you to study your Bibles.
When people ask me what Adventist's believe that is different from other religions, my answer is rather straight forward. It is not intended as a criticism to any other religious organization.
Adventist believe in keeping ALL 10 commandments of God. That includes observing the Seventh day Sabbath (Exodus 20) instead of worshiping on Sunday.
The absolute best documentary I have ever found on the history of the Sabbath being changed to Sunday can be found in a 5 DVD set entitled "The Seventh Day". It can be found at lltproductions.com and covers Creation through Old Testament times - 52 min. Hosted by veteran actor Hal Holbrook, part one of this five-part documentary series considers various views of human origins from ancient myths to Darwinism, and finds the most satisfactory answers in the book of Genesis. It recounts the loyalty and courage of people who saw the seventh-day Sabbath as a special sign between them and their Creator. Packed with special effects, brilliant graphics, and historical documentation. On DVD.
Author: LLT PRODUCTIONS
ISBN: 1-930920-10-5
Publisher: LLT PRODUCTIONS
This series answers questions about lost time in history and any possible question you could have. So if you can get your hands on a copy of the set, and you truly are searching for the truth, get ready to be amazed.
I would also like to recommend a book for you Roy. It is entitled "A Trip Into the Supernatural" by Roger Morneau. It is the story of a young man who was also a believer in Darwin and began dabbling in the supernatural. It is one of the BEST and most fascinating books I have ever read. You cannot put it down. I'm sure you can locate it on amazon.com.
Another key difference in Adventists beliefs is regarding the state of the dead. The Bible teaches that when you die you return to the dust of the earth and are asleep until the second coming of Christ. Most other churches teach that when you die you immediately go to heaven (or hell). There are many scriptures to support the state-of-the-dead belief (SDA do not ever base a doctrine on one verse of scripture -- there must be Biblical support).
Here are some texts for you to look up. If you don't have a Bible, I'm sure you can google the texts.
The story of Lazarus can be found in John 11. Verses 11 - 14 talk specifically about sleep and death. Be sure to read the entire chapter.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Talks about those that are "asleep" will be raised at the second coming of Jesus. Think about it, . . . if all the saints are already in heaven, who would Jesus becoming back to earth for anyway???
Psalms 6:5 Shows us that we are not aware of anything after we die. If we were floating around in heaven watching people on earth, wouldn't we be aware of what was going on?
Here are a few more texts on the subject. Be sure to read the last one! There are many more, but these are just a few to get you started on your search of truth.
Psalms 89:48. Isaiah 25:8. Ezekiel 18:32. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.
I know this is lengthy, but I just had to share. Jesus is coming soon. There isn't time for us to be ridiculing each other. We need to be lifting each other up and searching for truth with all our hearts. God bless you as you study these truths. I'm already praying for you!
graemeannable
says...
1:46am Tue 18 Nov 08
lisiane, I could not agree more. Pat Walton, who has been running this venture and organising all of the volunteers for this to be made possible, should be given an award for all her efforts. This is just a small slice of all the community focused work she has been involved in for so many years.
kramerjudy@comcast.net
says...
3:48am Tue 18 Nov 08
It's been interesting reading the comments of what people perceive Adventists to be. This may be of interest to you. Jesus commissioned His church to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and then the end will come. Here is further information to help you understand the Seventh-day Adventist Church and how they are reaching the world with the good news of Jesus Saving Grace: (Note - The primary speaker for "It Is Written Television program is Shawn Boonstra, native of British Columbia)
Seventh-day Adventist World Church Statistics
The following Statistics are as of December 31, 2006
Churches 61,818
Companies 61,361
Church Membership 15,115,806
Total Accessions 1,107,425
Baptisms 1,074,938
Professions of Faith 32,487
Ordained Ministers, Active 15,813
Total Active Employees 201,646
Mission to the World
Countries and Areas of the World as Recognized by the United Nations 229
Countries and Areas of the World in Which Seventh-day Adventist Work is Established 203
Languages Used in Seventh-day Adventist Publications and Oral Work 885
Divisions 13
Union Conferences and Missions 102
Local Conferences and Missions 566
Educational Program
Total Schools 7,284
Tertiary Institutions 106
Worker Training Institutions 42
Primary Schools 5,666
Secondary Schools 1,470
Total Enrollment 1,436,290
Tertiary Institutions 106,081
Worker Training Institutions 7,100
Secondary Schools 378,866
Primary Schools 944,243
Food Industries 29
Healthcare Ministry
Hospitals and Sanitariums 168
Nursing Homes and Retirement Centers 138
Clinics and Dispensaries 442
Orphanages and Children's Homes 34
Airplanes and Medical Launches 10
Outpatient Visits 15,371,479
Media Centers 10
Publishing Work
Publishing Houses and Branches 63
Literature Evangelists, Credentialed and Licensed 6,193
Languages Used in Publications 359
Sabbath Schools
Sabbath Schools 131,892
Sabbath School Membership 19,199,944
Contributions In US Dollars
Tithe $1,617,800,560
Tithe Per Capita $113.68
Sabbath School Mission Offerings $53,327,823
Ingathering $10,034,443
Total Tithe and Offerings $2,383,690,238
Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita $167.50
Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA)
Countries and Areas of the World Where ADRA is Involved 112
Total Projects Funded (Supporting Offices) 2,421
Development 1,551
Relief 870
Beneficiaries of Projects (Supporting Offices) 36,228,592
Value of Total Aid (Supporting Offices) $286,012,003
Prepared by the
Office of Archives and Statistics
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Updated October 25, 2007
Seventh-day Adventist World Church Statistics
The following Statistics are as of December 31, 2006
Churches 61,818
Companies 61,361
Church Membership 15,115,806
Total Accessions 1,107,425
Baptisms 1,074,938
Professions of Faith 32,487
Ordained Ministers, Active 15,813
Total Active Employees 201,646
Mission to the World
Countries and Areas of the World as Recognized by the United Nations 229
Countries and Areas of the World in Which Seventh-day Adventist Work is Established 203
Languages Used in Seventh-day Adventist Publications and Oral Work 885
Divisions 13
Union Conferences and Missions 102
Local Conferences and Missions 566
Educational Program
Total Schools 7,284
Tertiary Institutions 106
Worker Training Institutions 42
Primary Schools 5,666
Secondary Schools 1,470
Total Enrollment 1,436,290
Tertiary Institutions 106,081
Worker Training Institutions 7,100
Secondary Schools 378,866
Primary Schools 944,243
Food Industries 29
Healthcare Ministry
Hospitals and Sanitariums 168
Nursing Homes and Retirement Centers 138
Clinics and Dispensaries 442
Orphanages and Children's Homes 34
Airplanes and Medical Launches 10
Outpatient Visits 15,371,479
Media Centers 10
Publishing Work
Publishing Houses and Branches 63
Literature Evangelists, Credentialed and Licensed 6,193
Languages Used in Publications 359
Sabbath Schools
Sabbath Schools 131,892
Sabbath School Membership 19,199,944
Contributions In US Dollars
Tithe $1,617,800,560
Tithe Per Capita $113.68
Sabbath School Mission Offerings $53,327,823
Ingathering $10,034,443
Total Tithe and Offerings $2,383,690,238
Total Tithe and Offerings Per Capita $167.50
Adventist Development and Relief Agency International (ADRA)
Countries and Areas of the World Where ADRA is Involved 112
Total Projects Funded (Supporting Offices) 2,421
Development 1,551
Relief 870
Beneficiaries of Projects (Supporting Offices) 36,228,592
Value of Total Aid (Supporting Offices) $286,012,003
Prepared by the
Office of Archives and Statistics
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Updated October 25, 2007
sffca
says...
7:10am Tue 18 Nov 08
What a load of old tosh.
Good that no one was hurt, shame that a building has been destroyed, pity about the religious and anti religious ferver that has developed.
Get over it, it was just a fire.
It would be interesting to see the state of the finances of the church and whether the records have been destroyed!
Good that no one was hurt, shame that a building has been destroyed, pity about the religious and anti religious ferver that has developed.
Get over it, it was just a fire.
It would be interesting to see the state of the finances of the church and whether the records have been destroyed!
RogerD
says...
7:41am Tue 18 Nov 08
Roy,
I've got a couple of questions regards Darwinism...
If evolution is a constant process of adaptation to environments, and there are such a wide variety of environments...
1. why would natural selection that produces a new species happen only once? Shouldn't there be multiple time points where, for example, chimpanzees diverge to humans? In which case we would today see a greater variety of humans as a result of being at different stages of evolution.
2. why is there also not a wide variety within species? For example, the traits of humans are by enlarge the same across the globe despite significant variation in their environment over hundreds of thousands of years.
Further, Darwinism attempts to explain the evolution of life but does not explain the origin of life. I would be interested in your explanation of the origin of life.
And a word of warning...today's known laws of physics, science and the universe are likely to be scoffed at in a few centuries in the same way we now scoff at the idea of a flat world.
I've got a couple of questions regards Darwinism...
If evolution is a constant process of adaptation to environments, and there are such a wide variety of environments...
1. why would natural selection that produces a new species happen only once? Shouldn't there be multiple time points where, for example, chimpanzees diverge to humans? In which case we would today see a greater variety of humans as a result of being at different stages of evolution.
2. why is there also not a wide variety within species? For example, the traits of humans are by enlarge the same across the globe despite significant variation in their environment over hundreds of thousands of years.
Further, Darwinism attempts to explain the evolution of life but does not explain the origin of life. I would be interested in your explanation of the origin of life.
And a word of warning...today's known laws of physics, science and the universe are likely to be scoffed at in a few centuries in the same way we now scoff at the idea of a flat world.
Roy Stockdill
says...
10:44am Tue 18 Nov 08
As the late, great Spike Milligan said: "God said 'Let there be light' and behold there was light. But the Electricity Board told him he'd have to wait until Thursday to be connected to it"!
Seriously, though, how can anyone possibly believe in the myth of a supernatural creator who made the world in six days and then rested on the seventh? This is the stuff of kids' fairy tales, not rational thinking. Can't we accept the fact that religion is entirely man-made and exists only inside people's heads as an excuse to explain the things they don't understand?
Personally, I subscribe to the Big Bang theory as accepted by rational scientists, i.e. the universe began as a gigantic accidental fusion of precisely the right chemical elements millions of years ago and religious myth-makers have been trying to find other reasons to suit their fantasies ever since.
The one, undeniable truth is that religion has been responsible for more wars, deaths and suffering than any other single factor in human history. As for praying for me, thanks but I should keep your prayers for those who believe in them and that they can make any difference, if I were you!
Seriously, though, how can anyone possibly believe in the myth of a supernatural creator who made the world in six days and then rested on the seventh? This is the stuff of kids' fairy tales, not rational thinking. Can't we accept the fact that religion is entirely man-made and exists only inside people's heads as an excuse to explain the things they don't understand?
Personally, I subscribe to the Big Bang theory as accepted by rational scientists, i.e. the universe began as a gigantic accidental fusion of precisely the right chemical elements millions of years ago and religious myth-makers have been trying to find other reasons to suit their fantasies ever since.
The one, undeniable truth is that religion has been responsible for more wars, deaths and suffering than any other single factor in human history. As for praying for me, thanks but I should keep your prayers for those who believe in them and that they can make any difference, if I were you!
Eraj
says...
12:17pm Tue 18 Nov 08
Roy,
Could you just please answer the question asked by Roger D?
If you so strongly believe that God is not the way… why do you waste your time and energy putting Him and his people down?
Give us some substance of your believes!!
Could you just please answer the question asked by Roger D?
If you so strongly believe that God is not the way… why do you waste your time and energy putting Him and his people down?
Give us some substance of your believes!!
Paradise Watford
says...
1:00pm Tue 18 Nov 08
Roy, the comments you made about how could anyone believe in a supernatural being etc. could be aimed at just as easily your own beliefs in humanism and the 'big bang'. An accidental explosion of exact chemical elements.... how sci-fi is that?!?!? Did Arthur C Clark write that, or maybe Ian M Banks?
If you ignore for a minute the mess that humans have made of mother nature through polution etc. the planet with its eco systems and so on is actually very well balanced with everything there filling some purpose or other. You're suggesting that all this came by by accident, by random chance, and coincidences etc. Now isn't that just as far fetched really as believing in a God?
As for so called religious wars most were actually not about religion but about humans wanting power or wealth or influence (greed in other words) and using religion as the 'cover story'.
The Soviet Union of the post WWII years killed millions and millions of its own people and repressed countless more as well as fueling conflicts all over the world. Now they weren't exactly religious were they, if anything more humanist surely in their thinking....
If you want to see the true beliefs of religions I would point you in the direction of all the charitable and community works most if not all are involved with from helping oap's with their shopping to giving food and shelter to homeless people as mentioned in a post previously to being out there in the war zones providing aid on a massive scale.
I agree with Eraj, so far your argument against religions is that they are fairly tales and myths but you have not really given a substantial argument against them or indeed in support of your own beliefs.
Many people, religious and not, have had incidents that have taken place in their lives that can not be accounted for and they choose to subscribe to the theory of a greater being rather than just coincidence.
If we look at 9/11 and the twin towers I remember seeing a program on the TV where they showed example after example of people who should have been in those buildings where something happened that stopped/delayed them in getting to work and their lives were saved. I can't remember specific details well enough to recount them here but I do remember feeling that coincidence alone could not explain what had happened.
If you ignore for a minute the mess that humans have made of mother nature through polution etc. the planet with its eco systems and so on is actually very well balanced with everything there filling some purpose or other. You're suggesting that all this came by by accident, by random chance, and coincidences etc. Now isn't that just as far fetched really as believing in a God?
As for so called religious wars most were actually not about religion but about humans wanting power or wealth or influence (greed in other words) and using religion as the 'cover story'.
The Soviet Union of the post WWII years killed millions and millions of its own people and repressed countless more as well as fueling conflicts all over the world. Now they weren't exactly religious were they, if anything more humanist surely in their thinking....
If you want to see the true beliefs of religions I would point you in the direction of all the charitable and community works most if not all are involved with from helping oap's with their shopping to giving food and shelter to homeless people as mentioned in a post previously to being out there in the war zones providing aid on a massive scale.
I agree with Eraj, so far your argument against religions is that they are fairly tales and myths but you have not really given a substantial argument against them or indeed in support of your own beliefs.
Many people, religious and not, have had incidents that have taken place in their lives that can not be accounted for and they choose to subscribe to the theory of a greater being rather than just coincidence.
If we look at 9/11 and the twin towers I remember seeing a program on the TV where they showed example after example of people who should have been in those buildings where something happened that stopped/delayed them in getting to work and their lives were saved. I can't remember specific details well enough to recount them here but I do remember feeling that coincidence alone could not explain what had happened.
Tony Dee
says...
1:15pm Tue 18 Nov 08
Roy, I assume you tend to think of scientists such as Benjamin Franklin and Galileo as being irrational as they both believed in Intelligent Design. Great to hear you have a far superior intellect than those two hacks.
I also am very rational, I just find the big bang theory and evolution irrational.
Just some quick examples:
1. The big bang theory claims matter spinning out of a dot formed the known planets and stars. The fact that there are moons in our own solar system orbiting in different directions do not adhere to the Law of Physics known as Conservation of Angular Momentum. - Totally Irrational.
2. A linear explosion from a dot can cause the spirals that make up the galaxies. - Totally Irrational.
3. Amino Acids can form from nothing out of a primeval soup - Totally Irrational.
4. If we have evolved as to the theory of natural selection - survival of the fittest, surely we should have evolved in to asexual beings which would be more appropriate for the survival of a species. - Totally Irrational.
5. Sedimentary Rock Layers. No erosion between the layers. The division of layers are perfectly straight. No soil layers between each rock layer. No transitional forms of fossils found. Petrified trees standing upright through supposedly millions of years of layers. - Totally Irrational.
6. Trilobites used as index fossils, yet they have perhaps the most complex eye structure in nature. - Totally irrational.
7. Graptolites used as index fossils, yet they were found alive in the south pacific over 10 years ago. - Totally Irrational.
8. Lobe Finned fish used as index fossils, yet they were found swimming in the Indian ocean in 1938. - Totally Irrational.
I could go on but I think you're beginning to get the picture. Actually Roy you're more religious than any of the other posters. Your faith in something that does not have a shred of evidence is far greater than theirs.
I also am very rational, I just find the big bang theory and evolution irrational.
Just some quick examples:
1. The big bang theory claims matter spinning out of a dot formed the known planets and stars. The fact that there are moons in our own solar system orbiting in different directions do not adhere to the Law of Physics known as Conservation of Angular Momentum. - Totally Irrational.
2. A linear explosion from a dot can cause the spirals that make up the galaxies. - Totally Irrational.
3. Amino Acids can form from nothing out of a primeval soup - Totally Irrational.
4. If we have evolved as to the theory of natural selection - survival of the fittest, surely we should have evolved in to asexual beings which would be more appropriate for the survival of a species. - Totally Irrational.
5. Sedimentary Rock Layers. No erosion between the layers. The division of layers are perfectly straight. No soil layers between each rock layer. No transitional forms of fossils found. Petrified trees standing upright through supposedly millions of years of layers. - Totally Irrational.
6. Trilobites used as index fossils, yet they have perhaps the most complex eye structure in nature. - Totally irrational.
7. Graptolites used as index fossils, yet they were found alive in the south pacific over 10 years ago. - Totally Irrational.
8. Lobe Finned fish used as index fossils, yet they were found swimming in the Indian ocean in 1938. - Totally Irrational.
I could go on but I think you're beginning to get the picture. Actually Roy you're more religious than any of the other posters. Your faith in something that does not have a shred of evidence is far greater than theirs.
Minty
says...
5:06pm Tue 18 Nov 08
Re: Roger D's Comments "And a word of warning...today's known laws of physics, science and the universe are likely to be scoffed at in a few centuries in the same way we now scoff at the idea of a flat world"
Know something we don't Roger? Got some news from the future? Scary stuff!
Know something we don't Roger? Got some news from the future? Scary stuff!
gkopp
says...
6:36pm Tue 18 Nov 08
re: Seventh-Day Adventist loss of their headquarters.
Greetings from British Columbia, Canada. So sorry to hear of your sudden loss but very glad to hear no one was inside at the time of the fire. As someone who has recently lost their home to fire back in October, I understand and can empathize with you. The process to clean up and rebuild may be slow but is a course in time that must be run.
I have read with interest the banter back and forth in regards to this article...quite interesting at times. It is so true the two things people should not debate are politics and religion. Funny how we all feel we have to defend our beliefs religous or otherwise....usually giving fuel for someone elses fire. By the way I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and I have only 'One' who I must answer to. I am not here to debate my religous beliefs but to offer my heart felt sympathies too all people, Adventist or not who had to stand and watch this building burn and to the fire departement members who put their lives on the line each day to try help others. What more can we ask of all people but to offer a helping hand when things seems the bleakest, whether it's your job or not.
Best of luck to you as you rebuild !
Greetings from British Columbia, Canada. So sorry to hear of your sudden loss but very glad to hear no one was inside at the time of the fire. As someone who has recently lost their home to fire back in October, I understand and can empathize with you. The process to clean up and rebuild may be slow but is a course in time that must be run.
I have read with interest the banter back and forth in regards to this article...quite interesting at times. It is so true the two things people should not debate are politics and religion. Funny how we all feel we have to defend our beliefs religous or otherwise....usually giving fuel for someone elses fire. By the way I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and I have only 'One' who I must answer to. I am not here to debate my religous beliefs but to offer my heart felt sympathies too all people, Adventist or not who had to stand and watch this building burn and to the fire departement members who put their lives on the line each day to try help others. What more can we ask of all people but to offer a helping hand when things seems the bleakest, whether it's your job or not.
Best of luck to you as you rebuild !
vhulbert
says...
6:49pm Tue 18 Nov 08
gkopp. Thank you for that timely and well thought out response. From all of us at church headquarters here we appreciate your understanding of what we are going through, your balanced objectivity and your support of the fire service who did a fantastic job.
mordecai
says...
11:13pm Tue 18 Nov 08
Ok, so I have read the arguements for and against faith and for and against the sda church. But seriously what has any of this got to do with a fire in a building, shouldnt we just be happy no one was hurt and that people are ok.
But Roy, i agree with what people say, in that you have no real proof for your believes either, the darwin and evolution theories are flawed, in fact from what I have seen and studied there is more evidence for the creation story of the bible then of the nonsense of evolution. And furthermore, if your beliefs are correct why waste so much time trying to defend them, surely this shows that you are insecure in them anyway. It seems you are hanging yourself here, give it up for a bad job.
The fact is that we can never 100% prove anything and some day one of the beliefs in this world will be proved as factual, until then let people get on with their lives and stop being so pessimistic and weak, because you have no substantial evidence and you are using petty childish arguements to back up your non proven claim.
Lets get on with life and just be thankful that no one was hurt in this fire. We have a freedom of choice in this world and in the UK we are lucky to have freedom of religious believes.
Now let it go and get over yourself!
But Roy, i agree with what people say, in that you have no real proof for your believes either, the darwin and evolution theories are flawed, in fact from what I have seen and studied there is more evidence for the creation story of the bible then of the nonsense of evolution. And furthermore, if your beliefs are correct why waste so much time trying to defend them, surely this shows that you are insecure in them anyway. It seems you are hanging yourself here, give it up for a bad job.
The fact is that we can never 100% prove anything and some day one of the beliefs in this world will be proved as factual, until then let people get on with their lives and stop being so pessimistic and weak, because you have no substantial evidence and you are using petty childish arguements to back up your non proven claim.
Lets get on with life and just be thankful that no one was hurt in this fire. We have a freedom of choice in this world and in the UK we are lucky to have freedom of religious believes.
Now let it go and get over yourself!
RoyDV
says...
12:36pm Wed 19 Nov 08
To all the doubters in this column may I tell of something of the latest scientific facts regarding the "big bang" and a universe that is said to have come into existence purely by chance and as the result of a tiny quantity of nothing suddenly, by some unknown process becoming a dot of intense matter that could only explode into a greater and greater mass of matter that forms galaxies, stars, and planets. Something so huge coming from nothing!!! Is THAT logic!! It takes much more faith to believe that than that there was a powerful supernatural being who intelligently designed it all!!
Now may I tell of some of the latest scientific facts that I mentioned at first.
Astronomers of the scientific community have found that the universe is what they call "finely tuned". To put it in more understandable terms, it has been found that if the mass and weight of the universe were to differ by a greater or lesser amount than the mass and weight of JUST ONE AMERICAN DIME (their smallest coin), then the universe could not exist in the form that it does, and life also could not exist either!!! The mathematical figure is 10 to the power of 55 (if I have that correct, -something of that order anyway!). All the scientists, so I am informed, whether believers in a divine creation or not, agree on these facts! Even the poorest logic would have to agree that pure chance is out of the question here!! 10 to the power of 55 is a figure so massive that it is far away from the realm of any kind of chance! It surely is!
No! As Adventists and Christian believers, we of this church denomination are strengthened in our belief in a great Creator God who, as Scripture says, 'made all things by the breath of His mouth', and that 'He spoke and it was done, and, 'without Him was nothing made that was made'. So there can be no room at all for the chance action of blind, unregulated, unexplainable, forces of some mysterious process that now nowhere is seen at work to be able to demonstrate their existence!
No, its more logical to believe in a Maker who is responsible for the existence of our Universe, and us, and life!
Now may I tell of some of the latest scientific facts that I mentioned at first.
Astronomers of the scientific community have found that the universe is what they call "finely tuned". To put it in more understandable terms, it has been found that if the mass and weight of the universe were to differ by a greater or lesser amount than the mass and weight of JUST ONE AMERICAN DIME (their smallest coin), then the universe could not exist in the form that it does, and life also could not exist either!!! The mathematical figure is 10 to the power of 55 (if I have that correct, -something of that order anyway!). All the scientists, so I am informed, whether believers in a divine creation or not, agree on these facts! Even the poorest logic would have to agree that pure chance is out of the question here!! 10 to the power of 55 is a figure so massive that it is far away from the realm of any kind of chance! It surely is!
No! As Adventists and Christian believers, we of this church denomination are strengthened in our belief in a great Creator God who, as Scripture says, 'made all things by the breath of His mouth', and that 'He spoke and it was done, and, 'without Him was nothing made that was made'. So there can be no room at all for the chance action of blind, unregulated, unexplainable, forces of some mysterious process that now nowhere is seen at work to be able to demonstrate their existence!
No, its more logical to believe in a Maker who is responsible for the existence of our Universe, and us, and life!
Mr.T
says...
9:07am Fri 21 Nov 08
Cockdill gone all quiet again? Quel Surprise !
John Dowdle
says...
10:12pm Fri 21 Nov 08
On behalf of Watford Area Humanists, I wish to respond to some of the comments on this story.
On the question of the fire, this surely serves to reinforce the need to ensure that adequate cover is maintained by the Hertfordshire Fire Service. The constant running down and whittling away of the service is something that all local residents must view now with even greater concern.
In reply to Paradise Watford, I would say that humanist ceremonies are not devoid of hope. Our officiants who preside at funeral ceremonies are called Celebrants and their primary role is to celebrate the lives of those who have died and to invite those attending the ceremony to remember and reflect upon the achievements of the person being remembered.
We all ‘live on’ in the works we leave behind us and in the memories of those we have known. Some ‘live on’ through the children they have raised and through the influences they have achieved on the lives of others.
Evolution is not something to be sceptical about. It explains how the world we live in has become the way it is. As individuals we all evolve throughout our lives. So, too, do other people and species.
The main threat to the survival of all life forms on the planet Earth is the eventual exhaustion of the Sun’s fuel. As that process begins, the Sun will expand, possibly to touch the surface of the planet. The end result will be that the Earth’s atmosphere will be completely dissipated and, after the Sun has gradually lost all its fuel, it will die out, leaving the Earth a cold and empty piece of rock in space.
However, these events will not occur for billions of years and it is to be expected that the innovative nature of humankind is such that our successors will develop new technologies which will enable them to migrate out into space to find new planets to live on – an exciting prospect.
Eraj says inter alia ‘…don’t be content with some artificial documentation which does not stand on solid ground’. Is s/he referring to the Torah, Bible or Koran here?
I thought Barbara Kerr’s assertion that ‘Jesus is coming soon’ was one that has been repeated for close on two thousand years – and still he has not come. Why can none of these prophets ever give us an actual date as to when he will be arriving? Jews and Muslims do not consider Jesus to be a true Messiah so what do they make of Ms Kerr’s assertion, I wonder?
I found the statistics supplied by Judy Kramer of Happy Valley, Oregon most interesting. You would think that an organisation with an annual turnover of almost US$2.4 trillion, employing over 200,000 employees to service a volunteer army exceeding 15 million persons would have the capacity to end all hunger and poverty on the planet Earth. Yet, still it continues. Why are they so ineffectual?
Paradise Watford clearly does not understand that humanists and secularists reject all forms of extreme ideology, whether religious or political. We do not condone the excesses brought about by religious extremists not do we condone the excesses brought about by political ideologues such as Stalin, Hitler or Mao Zedong. We stand for human rights and democracy, something most religious and political ideologies seek to undermine.
The Big Bang theory is consistent with our expanding Universe, and the Large Hadron Collider experiment should provide further evidence of this next year. The theory of evolution is consistent with former and present life forms on our planet. What is amazing is how relevant Darwin’s work remains 150 years after the publication of his Origin of the Species.
On the question of the fire, this surely serves to reinforce the need to ensure that adequate cover is maintained by the Hertfordshire Fire Service. The constant running down and whittling away of the service is something that all local residents must view now with even greater concern.
In reply to Paradise Watford, I would say that humanist ceremonies are not devoid of hope. Our officiants who preside at funeral ceremonies are called Celebrants and their primary role is to celebrate the lives of those who have died and to invite those attending the ceremony to remember and reflect upon the achievements of the person being remembered.
We all ‘live on’ in the works we leave behind us and in the memories of those we have known. Some ‘live on’ through the children they have raised and through the influences they have achieved on the lives of others.
Evolution is not something to be sceptical about. It explains how the world we live in has become the way it is. As individuals we all evolve throughout our lives. So, too, do other people and species.
The main threat to the survival of all life forms on the planet Earth is the eventual exhaustion of the Sun’s fuel. As that process begins, the Sun will expand, possibly to touch the surface of the planet. The end result will be that the Earth’s atmosphere will be completely dissipated and, after the Sun has gradually lost all its fuel, it will die out, leaving the Earth a cold and empty piece of rock in space.
However, these events will not occur for billions of years and it is to be expected that the innovative nature of humankind is such that our successors will develop new technologies which will enable them to migrate out into space to find new planets to live on – an exciting prospect.
Eraj says inter alia ‘…don’t be content with some artificial documentation which does not stand on solid ground’. Is s/he referring to the Torah, Bible or Koran here?
I thought Barbara Kerr’s assertion that ‘Jesus is coming soon’ was one that has been repeated for close on two thousand years – and still he has not come. Why can none of these prophets ever give us an actual date as to when he will be arriving? Jews and Muslims do not consider Jesus to be a true Messiah so what do they make of Ms Kerr’s assertion, I wonder?
I found the statistics supplied by Judy Kramer of Happy Valley, Oregon most interesting. You would think that an organisation with an annual turnover of almost US$2.4 trillion, employing over 200,000 employees to service a volunteer army exceeding 15 million persons would have the capacity to end all hunger and poverty on the planet Earth. Yet, still it continues. Why are they so ineffectual?
Paradise Watford clearly does not understand that humanists and secularists reject all forms of extreme ideology, whether religious or political. We do not condone the excesses brought about by religious extremists not do we condone the excesses brought about by political ideologues such as Stalin, Hitler or Mao Zedong. We stand for human rights and democracy, something most religious and political ideologies seek to undermine.
The Big Bang theory is consistent with our expanding Universe, and the Large Hadron Collider experiment should provide further evidence of this next year. The theory of evolution is consistent with former and present life forms on our planet. What is amazing is how relevant Darwin’s work remains 150 years after the publication of his Origin of the Species.
deep thinker
says...
4:01am Sat 22 Nov 08
I have been reading various comments regarding the fire and about Seventh-Day Adventists in general. Sad to say, some of the comments show a serious lack of factual information about the religion and its doctrines.
I would like to clarify a few points, if you don't mind. First of all I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and have been for the past 33 years. Before makeing that decision, I studied doctrines of nearly all the mainstream denominations, and even some obscure Eastern religions. What convinced me was that the church has no 'creed' other than the Bible. WE adhere to the teachings from the entire Bible, carefully studying out a topic by searching for every text on that subject to get a complete revelation. We believe that God wants mankind to understand all that He has preserved for us, and that the Bible means exactly what it says, when all the texts on aa given topic are studied out. That includes the account of how this earth originated, therefore we cannot accept far-fetched accounts based on skimpy evidence conjured up in some laboratory. We take it literally, believing everything we need to know about or origins, our history, our future is withing those pages. We believe that the Bible is the manual for living a decent and fulfilling life. It has certainly worked for me.
As for the conference building burning on a Sunday -- it is pretty doubtful that God was involved in any way. God is not a God of destruction, but one of encouragement, hope, love -- all the good things that make our sojourn here on this earth bearable.
For those doubting the existence of God -- that is your free choice. If you look around you, you will see that those who have a strong faith-based life are generally happier, healthier, better workers, better neighbors than those who have no hope for an eternal life. Should it turn out that our faith is pointless, we have still had a better life here than it would have been without the anchor of faith. It could be compared to insurance. Its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Someone made a rather snide comment about the multi-million funds the church has. Have you ever examined what those funds are used for? The church supports numerous schools at all levels of education, hospitals, clinics, feeding programs for starving nations, orphanages, desalination plants for clean, safe drinking water, agricultural programs to help people become self-sufficient, housing for poor people, disaster relief of all kinds and at every level. dThe variety of ways they work with people in need is staggering. Because of their genuine humanitarian work among disaster victims, the church community services workers are allowed in where many other groups are excluded. We do not discriminate against any one of any denomination, color or belief, nor do we get involved in local politics. Unfortunately this is not true of all churches and many church workers have been killed as a result. All it takes to a genuine need and the Seventh-Day Adventists are there to relieve the suffering.
Where do the funds come from to support this work? Most of it comes from private donations of the church members themselves. In some areas there are still programs where the community is asked to help with the funding. All such donations are completely voluntary. There must be some modestly paid workers to act as administrators and oversee the distribution of goods and volunteer workers. The vast majority are volunteer workers, often retired people who hold part time jobs to raise the funds needed to pay their own transportation and expenses.
You might ask why anyone would make such personal sacrifices and get nothing in return. Many people cannot understand this, but it is a genuine love for humanity. Jesus came to this earth to save humanity from itself. He died a hideous death by the cruelest device invented by evil men just so you and I could have the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with Him. Before He left this earth, He gave His disiples the commission to go teach all nations everything He had taught them. Teach them, baptize them and lead them to Jesus so they can enjoy eternal life.
That is the commission of Seventh-Day Adventists. Teaching, preaching, relieving suffering -- just as Jesus did.
If you don't like literature stuck through your door, I am sorry. It just means that someone loves you so much they want to spend eternity with you. There is no coercion -- just an opportunity for you to make a choice based upon more evidence than you would get from secular sources alone.
Jim Jones and David Koresh both were fanatics. You find fanatics everywhere. These fanatics actually believed they were the Messiah. Jesus warned His disciples there would rise false Christs -- and He also warned us to have nothing to do with them. You know what happened to those that did not heed the warning.
I apologize that this is rather long, but I did want to clarify some misconseptions that had been expressed. I hope it has helped.
I would like to clarify a few points, if you don't mind. First of all I am a Seventh-Day Adventist and have been for the past 33 years. Before makeing that decision, I studied doctrines of nearly all the mainstream denominations, and even some obscure Eastern religions. What convinced me was that the church has no 'creed' other than the Bible. WE adhere to the teachings from the entire Bible, carefully studying out a topic by searching for every text on that subject to get a complete revelation. We believe that God wants mankind to understand all that He has preserved for us, and that the Bible means exactly what it says, when all the texts on aa given topic are studied out. That includes the account of how this earth originated, therefore we cannot accept far-fetched accounts based on skimpy evidence conjured up in some laboratory. We take it literally, believing everything we need to know about or origins, our history, our future is withing those pages. We believe that the Bible is the manual for living a decent and fulfilling life. It has certainly worked for me.
As for the conference building burning on a Sunday -- it is pretty doubtful that God was involved in any way. God is not a God of destruction, but one of encouragement, hope, love -- all the good things that make our sojourn here on this earth bearable.
For those doubting the existence of God -- that is your free choice. If you look around you, you will see that those who have a strong faith-based life are generally happier, healthier, better workers, better neighbors than those who have no hope for an eternal life. Should it turn out that our faith is pointless, we have still had a better life here than it would have been without the anchor of faith. It could be compared to insurance. Its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Someone made a rather snide comment about the multi-million funds the church has. Have you ever examined what those funds are used for? The church supports numerous schools at all levels of education, hospitals, clinics, feeding programs for starving nations, orphanages, desalination plants for clean, safe drinking water, agricultural programs to help people become self-sufficient, housing for poor people, disaster relief of all kinds and at every level. dThe variety of ways they work with people in need is staggering. Because of their genuine humanitarian work among disaster victims, the church community services workers are allowed in where many other groups are excluded. We do not discriminate against any one of any denomination, color or belief, nor do we get involved in local politics. Unfortunately this is not true of all churches and many church workers have been killed as a result. All it takes to a genuine need and the Seventh-Day Adventists are there to relieve the suffering.
Where do the funds come from to support this work? Most of it comes from private donations of the church members themselves. In some areas there are still programs where the community is asked to help with the funding. All such donations are completely voluntary. There must be some modestly paid workers to act as administrators and oversee the distribution of goods and volunteer workers. The vast majority are volunteer workers, often retired people who hold part time jobs to raise the funds needed to pay their own transportation and expenses.
You might ask why anyone would make such personal sacrifices and get nothing in return. Many people cannot understand this, but it is a genuine love for humanity. Jesus came to this earth to save humanity from itself. He died a hideous death by the cruelest device invented by evil men just so you and I could have the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with Him. Before He left this earth, He gave His disiples the commission to go teach all nations everything He had taught them. Teach them, baptize them and lead them to Jesus so they can enjoy eternal life.
That is the commission of Seventh-Day Adventists. Teaching, preaching, relieving suffering -- just as Jesus did.
If you don't like literature stuck through your door, I am sorry. It just means that someone loves you so much they want to spend eternity with you. There is no coercion -- just an opportunity for you to make a choice based upon more evidence than you would get from secular sources alone.
Jim Jones and David Koresh both were fanatics. You find fanatics everywhere. These fanatics actually believed they were the Messiah. Jesus warned His disciples there would rise false Christs -- and He also warned us to have nothing to do with them. You know what happened to those that did not heed the warning.
I apologize that this is rather long, but I did want to clarify some misconseptions that had been expressed. I hope it has helped.
mcornwell
says...
9:24am Sat 22 Nov 08
I was very sorry to hear of the BUC fire. Stanborough Park was where I went to secondary school back in the '70's. I was baptized at the Stanborough Park Church. The church even supported me to be a missionary in Japan in the '80's, long after I'd left home. There are a bunch of wonderful people who work in the Park who had a great positive influence on my life and I will forever be indebted to them. It is only obvious to a Christian believer, like myself, that there is more to this fire than meets the eye. What may seem to be "just a fire" has opened a door to the Watford and international community (even as far as Hawaii) - an open door for God to continue His purpose; creating an awareness about His soon coming and the eventual defeat of evil. To my old friends, like Victor, who have been directly effected by the fire, I must say, I am encouraged by your positive outlook...I would expect no less from a fellow Seventh-day Adventist with a common hope for a bright future on our renewed earth. Keep up the good work that God has commissioned you for - you're in my prayers.
John Dowdle
says...
10:01am Sat 22 Nov 08
I would like to respond in part to the comment from deep thinker, Marshalltown USA.
In talking about “Jesus “– whoever he might have been – “deepthinker” says, ‘He died a hideous death by the cruelest device invented by evil men just so you and I could have the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with Him’.
If – as most christians believe – “Jesus” is part of a triple godhead (Father, Son and Ghost) and the godhead is all-knowing and all-powerful, it does raise the question, “Did not the Godhead know – in advance – what would happen to “Jesus” when he manifested himself in human form”?
If the triumvirate godhead knew in advance that “Jesus” would be crucified, then surely “Jesus” manifesting itself into human form was a deliberate form of suicide?
It is not true, therefore, that “Jesus” sacrificed himself for us. Theoretically, the mythical triumvirate godhead could have intervened at any time and stopped “Jesus” from being killed. It was – in theory – his/their choice to die and has nothing to do with any of us human beings.
If the godhead also knew in advance that Adam and Eve would end up eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, then why have human beings been blamed for it ever since?
It quite clearly makes no sense to claim that “God” is all-knowing and all-powerful but to then blame human beings for acting in ways “God” did not expect. Why did “God” not anticipate these acts? Is “God” stupid?
Clearly, “God” is simply a myth, created by early humans to reassure simple-minded people that there are explanations for natural events which they were incapable of understanding at the time.
Today, we have no need for mythical spirits or “gods”. Science provides us with far more sensible explanations of naturally occurring phenomena.
According to Wikipedia, William Miller predicted that “Jesus” would return to Earth on 22nd October 1844.
When “Jesus” failed to materialise, the Millerite organisation folded but re-emerged as the Seventh Day Adventist Church when an alternative set of explanations were chosen which conveniently did not involve predicting any actual date for the messianic return.
In talking about “Jesus “– whoever he might have been – “deepthinker” says, ‘He died a hideous death by the cruelest device invented by evil men just so you and I could have the opportunity to enjoy eternal life with Him’.
If – as most christians believe – “Jesus” is part of a triple godhead (Father, Son and Ghost) and the godhead is all-knowing and all-powerful, it does raise the question, “Did not the Godhead know – in advance – what would happen to “Jesus” when he manifested himself in human form”?
If the triumvirate godhead knew in advance that “Jesus” would be crucified, then surely “Jesus” manifesting itself into human form was a deliberate form of suicide?
It is not true, therefore, that “Jesus” sacrificed himself for us. Theoretically, the mythical triumvirate godhead could have intervened at any time and stopped “Jesus” from being killed. It was – in theory – his/their choice to die and has nothing to do with any of us human beings.
If the godhead also knew in advance that Adam and Eve would end up eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, then why have human beings been blamed for it ever since?
It quite clearly makes no sense to claim that “God” is all-knowing and all-powerful but to then blame human beings for acting in ways “God” did not expect. Why did “God” not anticipate these acts? Is “God” stupid?
Clearly, “God” is simply a myth, created by early humans to reassure simple-minded people that there are explanations for natural events which they were incapable of understanding at the time.
Today, we have no need for mythical spirits or “gods”. Science provides us with far more sensible explanations of naturally occurring phenomena.
According to Wikipedia, William Miller predicted that “Jesus” would return to Earth on 22nd October 1844.
When “Jesus” failed to materialise, the Millerite organisation folded but re-emerged as the Seventh Day Adventist Church when an alternative set of explanations were chosen which conveniently did not involve predicting any actual date for the messianic return.
Paradise Watford
says...
5:37pm Sat 22 Nov 08
John Dowdle, thank you for responses they made for interesting reading, as did deep thinkers.
My original comments about the lack of hope that I saw at a humanist funeral as compared to a christian funeral were just my personal observations, however - to live on only through the works that you did during your life or through your children is still at the end of the day rather depressing and I must say i'd rather believe in an eternal life in heaven after death. I would reiterate that to me the humanist way of thinking means that all our lives, our very existence, are pointless.
As to migrating into outer space, sorry, as I said before all sounds a bit sci fi to me....
whilst humans are undoubtedly innovative this very innovation has and is accelerating the destruction of this earth - we're going to kill this earth well before the sun ever does!
I think the 'income' of the Adventist church was 2.4 billion as opposed to trillion by the way. It would take the combined efforts (and more importantly the will) of everyone in this world to stop hunger and poverty although i'm sure the works of this, and other churches are making a huge difference to many many people.
I wasn't trying to say either that humanist would condone or agree with hitler etc. just that people like him and stalins way of thinking was not a million miles away from the humanist way of thinking in many ways.
Jesus and the God head DID know what his fate would be when he came to this world - thats the point, he died on the cross to take on our sins so that if we turn to him our sins will be removed.
What a lot of people seem to miss about God is that he gives everyone choice - the choice to follow him, or the choice to not, the choice to try and stay away from sining (I say try as no one is perfect) or the choice to sin. To have created the earth and adam and eve and not given them the choice to go against God would have meant He would have been in essence keeping them captive.
Its like building the nicest house, with amazing gardens, filling both with everything you could ever need or imagine, then sticking your two children in there.... and never letting them out of the grounds to see the rest of the world. As nice a place as it is you're still keeping them prisoner aren't you.
So giving adam and eve a choice was about giving them (and us) freedom, as we all have the freedom to either follow God or to not. God does know how we are going to act but if he were to step in and stop us doing what we wanted to do then we are back to being his prisoners - which would not make him a loving God would it?
The Bible states that no one can predict when Jesus is to return, the Adventist church as 'deep thinker' stated follows no creed but the bible. Hence why the Adventists do not predict when Jesus will return - i'm sure early Adventists would have learnt that mistake from the Millerite movement (by the way the Adventists were not the only church to come out pf the Millerite movement).
My original comments about the lack of hope that I saw at a humanist funeral as compared to a christian funeral were just my personal observations, however - to live on only through the works that you did during your life or through your children is still at the end of the day rather depressing and I must say i'd rather believe in an eternal life in heaven after death. I would reiterate that to me the humanist way of thinking means that all our lives, our very existence, are pointless.
As to migrating into outer space, sorry, as I said before all sounds a bit sci fi to me....
whilst humans are undoubtedly innovative this very innovation has and is accelerating the destruction of this earth - we're going to kill this earth well before the sun ever does!
I think the 'income' of the Adventist church was 2.4 billion as opposed to trillion by the way. It would take the combined efforts (and more importantly the will) of everyone in this world to stop hunger and poverty although i'm sure the works of this, and other churches are making a huge difference to many many people.
I wasn't trying to say either that humanist would condone or agree with hitler etc. just that people like him and stalins way of thinking was not a million miles away from the humanist way of thinking in many ways.
Jesus and the God head DID know what his fate would be when he came to this world - thats the point, he died on the cross to take on our sins so that if we turn to him our sins will be removed.
What a lot of people seem to miss about God is that he gives everyone choice - the choice to follow him, or the choice to not, the choice to try and stay away from sining (I say try as no one is perfect) or the choice to sin. To have created the earth and adam and eve and not given them the choice to go against God would have meant He would have been in essence keeping them captive.
Its like building the nicest house, with amazing gardens, filling both with everything you could ever need or imagine, then sticking your two children in there.... and never letting them out of the grounds to see the rest of the world. As nice a place as it is you're still keeping them prisoner aren't you.
So giving adam and eve a choice was about giving them (and us) freedom, as we all have the freedom to either follow God or to not. God does know how we are going to act but if he were to step in and stop us doing what we wanted to do then we are back to being his prisoners - which would not make him a loving God would it?
The Bible states that no one can predict when Jesus is to return, the Adventist church as 'deep thinker' stated follows no creed but the bible. Hence why the Adventists do not predict when Jesus will return - i'm sure early Adventists would have learnt that mistake from the Millerite movement (by the way the Adventists were not the only church to come out pf the Millerite movement).
deep thinker
says...
10:38pm Sat 22 Nov 08
In response to Jim Dowdle, and to Paradise Watford: First, Thank you, Paradise for your further enlightenment to Jim.
Jim, I can understand how confusing much of this conversation must be to you. But I perceive that you are a sincere man, and it is my guess that you are honestly searching for answers. I sincerely hope these dialogs will help lead you to the answers you need and want.
The Bible is VERY specific, that the plan for man's salvation was laid BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THIS WORLD. In other words, everything was in place BEFORE this planet was even created, before man was created, and before sin ever entered the planet -- just in case mankind made a wrong choice. Why? God is not a vengeful dictator, but a God of love and compassion. He does not want anyone lost to the kingdom of heaven. But for the sake of those righteous beings, something must be done to protect them from evil-doers. Therefore, God has no choice but to destroy evil in every form. Can you imagine what it would be like to live forever surrounded with the same people that make life such a misery now? You might be next door neighbors to serial killers, rapists, pedophiles. Or in some cases, your worst nightmare -- the mother-in-law! That would not be heaven -- it would be an eternally living hell! So for the joy and protection of God's faithful ones, sinners must be done away with. This is done by one of two methods: destroying sinners once and for all, or transforming them into righteous folks. God wants mankind to be transformed. In Isaiah He is giving a message to the prophet in which He says: I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So turn, turn from your wicked ways, for why would you choose to die?" Can't you hear the pleading tone in those words?
All of mankind's sin is breaking the law of God. Your sins, and mine, are rebellion against the One who gave us those laws. But if those sins are forgiven, we are washed clean. As though we had never sinned in the first place. We become 'new creatures'.
Since the sins are breaking God's laws, it is obvious that only God can forgive those sins. For example: I could not forgive you for stealing your neighbor's chickens. I might try, but it would mean nothing as they weren't my chickens. Only your neighbor could do that. It is the same principle with God. The Bible is very specific "The soul that sins shall die". So Jesus, as the third person of the Godhead, chose to pay the price for man's sins by dying in his place.
God was very emphatic when He warned Adam and Eve that if you sin, you will die. This is not referring to the physical death every living thing experiences. It is referring to the final eradication of sin when every sinful thing, person, action, thought, and Satan himself, are destroyed in the lake of fire. It is this final death from which there is never any recovery that Jesus paid for with His own life.
Did He have to do this? No. God is not obligated to us in any way. But He loves us too much to see us destroy ourselves. So Jesus provided a way out. The price has been paid. All we have to do is accept it!
You called Jesus death on the cross 'suicide'. Suicide is killing ones self and accomplishes nothing. What Jesus did was to sacrifice Himself so that you and I could have eternal life. His sacrifice paid the price for our sins, provided we accept that sacrifice. Through His death, He gives us life. It is not a pointless suicide because through it the entire world can be saved for eternity. That is a very big difference.
Jim, I do so pray that you will find the truths that you are searching for. Please, begin by just reading your Bible. If you don't have a Bible, get one. It is fascinating reading, beginning with how this world was created. Are you a history buff? The first 2500 years after creation are pretty thoroughly covered, following the genealogy of the line through which Jesus was brought into this world. It is the background history of Christianity and the many, many attempts God made to keep an open relationship with His people.
I would dearly love to have Bible studies with you. Not to coerce you into my way of thinking, but to open new avenues of exploration for you to contemplate. In the end, whether or not God's word is accepted is up to each individual.
Rembmer one thing -- just because you enter a church or read religious material does not make you a Christian any more than going to a theater makes you a movie star. It is all a matter of YOUR choice. If you would like to learn more, I'm sure there is someone in your area that would be delighted to study with you. Just leave a message.
Jim, I can understand how confusing much of this conversation must be to you. But I perceive that you are a sincere man, and it is my guess that you are honestly searching for answers. I sincerely hope these dialogs will help lead you to the answers you need and want.
The Bible is VERY specific, that the plan for man's salvation was laid BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THIS WORLD. In other words, everything was in place BEFORE this planet was even created, before man was created, and before sin ever entered the planet -- just in case mankind made a wrong choice. Why? God is not a vengeful dictator, but a God of love and compassion. He does not want anyone lost to the kingdom of heaven. But for the sake of those righteous beings, something must be done to protect them from evil-doers. Therefore, God has no choice but to destroy evil in every form. Can you imagine what it would be like to live forever surrounded with the same people that make life such a misery now? You might be next door neighbors to serial killers, rapists, pedophiles. Or in some cases, your worst nightmare -- the mother-in-law! That would not be heaven -- it would be an eternally living hell! So for the joy and protection of God's faithful ones, sinners must be done away with. This is done by one of two methods: destroying sinners once and for all, or transforming them into righteous folks. God wants mankind to be transformed. In Isaiah He is giving a message to the prophet in which He says: I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So turn, turn from your wicked ways, for why would you choose to die?" Can't you hear the pleading tone in those words?
All of mankind's sin is breaking the law of God. Your sins, and mine, are rebellion against the One who gave us those laws. But if those sins are forgiven, we are washed clean. As though we had never sinned in the first place. We become 'new creatures'.
Since the sins are breaking God's laws, it is obvious that only God can forgive those sins. For example: I could not forgive you for stealing your neighbor's chickens. I might try, but it would mean nothing as they weren't my chickens. Only your neighbor could do that. It is the same principle with God. The Bible is very specific "The soul that sins shall die". So Jesus, as the third person of the Godhead, chose to pay the price for man's sins by dying in his place.
God was very emphatic when He warned Adam and Eve that if you sin, you will die. This is not referring to the physical death every living thing experiences. It is referring to the final eradication of sin when every sinful thing, person, action, thought, and Satan himself, are destroyed in the lake of fire. It is this final death from which there is never any recovery that Jesus paid for with His own life.
Did He have to do this? No. God is not obligated to us in any way. But He loves us too much to see us destroy ourselves. So Jesus provided a way out. The price has been paid. All we have to do is accept it!
You called Jesus death on the cross 'suicide'. Suicide is killing ones self and accomplishes nothing. What Jesus did was to sacrifice Himself so that you and I could have eternal life. His sacrifice paid the price for our sins, provided we accept that sacrifice. Through His death, He gives us life. It is not a pointless suicide because through it the entire world can be saved for eternity. That is a very big difference.
Jim, I do so pray that you will find the truths that you are searching for. Please, begin by just reading your Bible. If you don't have a Bible, get one. It is fascinating reading, beginning with how this world was created. Are you a history buff? The first 2500 years after creation are pretty thoroughly covered, following the genealogy of the line through which Jesus was brought into this world. It is the background history of Christianity and the many, many attempts God made to keep an open relationship with His people.
I would dearly love to have Bible studies with you. Not to coerce you into my way of thinking, but to open new avenues of exploration for you to contemplate. In the end, whether or not God's word is accepted is up to each individual.
Rembmer one thing -- just because you enter a church or read religious material does not make you a Christian any more than going to a theater makes you a movie star. It is all a matter of YOUR choice. If you would like to learn more, I'm sure there is someone in your area that would be delighted to study with you. Just leave a message.
nknowlton
says...
4:53pm Wed 3 Dec 08
I am a 3rd generation Seventh-day Adventist and a paid employee of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I am a teacher. I teach in the Adventist Church not because of the money that I recieve (which isn't much ;) ), but because of the privilege I have of sharing the love of God with children, a God that loves us so much that He gave His Son to die in our place. I teach my kids that there is always hope in this world because we have Jesus. Without that, the fire at the British HQ would be a tragedy to me.
Although, the fire is unfortunate, to me it has been a great blessing to see how a simple fire has started such marvelous conversation and questioning about my Lord and Savior and about the church that I love. I am proud to be part of an organization that shares this hope with the world.
To those that asked if we had lost any important documents, I'm sure we have lost some treasured items, but we'd have lost them anyway sometime soon when Jesus comes again to take us home.
To my brothers and sisters who lost their workspace, it must be an inconvenience, but count it all joy! Jesus is coming soon. Praise the Lord!
Although, the fire is unfortunate, to me it has been a great blessing to see how a simple fire has started such marvelous conversation and questioning about my Lord and Savior and about the church that I love. I am proud to be part of an organization that shares this hope with the world.
To those that asked if we had lost any important documents, I'm sure we have lost some treasured items, but we'd have lost them anyway sometime soon when Jesus comes again to take us home.
To my brothers and sisters who lost their workspace, it must be an inconvenience, but count it all joy! Jesus is coming soon. Praise the Lord!
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Onlookers watch the blaze. Photo by Jo Hart
Flames leap from the roof of the offices. Photo by Kim Payne
Firefighters tackle the blaze. Photo by Kim Payne
The remains of the charred building. PICTURE: Simon Jacobs.
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