Watford Academy to downgrade to Category 3 (From Watford Observer)

u0rns. wrote:
This looks like a clever money saving exercise - If we send our players to Udinese Calcio or Granada CF then EPPP rules do not apply.
Our players are protected from poaching by Premiership clubs and Watford FC don't have to pay the huge costs associated with the level 1 academy status.
Worst case, our own players are loaned back to us!
Remember the EPPP rules were made to protect the Premier League by ensuring our best players moved to the top English clubs for a fraction of their true value.

Coach1 wrote:

u0rns. wrote:
This looks like a clever money saving exercise - If we send our players to Udinese Calcio or Granada CF then EPPP rules do not apply.
Our players are protected from poaching by Premiership clubs and Watford FC don't have to pay the huge costs associated with the level 1 academy status.
Worst case, our own players are loaned back to us!
Remember the EPPP rules were made to protect the Premier League by ensuring our best players moved to the top English clubs for a fraction of their true value.

So we are going to send 12-16 yr olds over to Spain and Italy, How many parents will allow that?

Bringe wrote:

Coach1 wrote:

u0rns. wrote:
This looks like a clever money saving exercise - If we send our players to Udinese Calcio or Granada CF then EPPP rules do not apply.
Our players are protected from poaching by Premiership clubs and Watford FC don't have to pay the huge costs associated with the level 1 academy status.
Worst case, our own players are loaned back to us!
Remember the EPPP rules were made to protect the Premier League by ensuring our best players moved to the top English clubs for a fraction of their true value.

So we are going to send 12-16 yr olds over to Spain and Italy, How many parents will allow that?

Not at all, just keep them slightly under wraps until the time is right. It's not as if the scouts have set up camp outside the school gates.

Bringe wrote:
There is nothing as far as I am aware that would stop Udinese or Granada scouting the 8 year olds.... Nani is no fool he would have considered every angle before such a drastic move.

Bringe wrote:
There is nothing as far as I am aware that would stop Udinese or Granada scouting the 8 year olds.... Nani is no fool he would have considered every angle before such a drastic move.

Yellow Al wrote:
It's all well and good previous posts saying that our best players can move over to spain/italy. What happens in the next few years when there are no players coming through as all the good kids have been picked up by Cat 1 & 2 clubs at the age of 7 & 8. We cannot sign the best local talent until age 11. By this time the better academys (Chelsea Arsenal Spurs, fulham, QPR, even Barnet - Cat 2, & Brentford - Cat 2) will have snapped them up. Even Luton applied for Cat 2 but I think they will get Cat 3, the same as us.

I feel for the young kids there now, especially the recently signed U9's for the new season. What does this mean for them. Will they be instantly released as the club cannot sign U12's anymore.

This is a sad day for our football club.

gilesy97 wrote:

Yellow Al wrote:
It's all well and good previous posts saying that our best players can move over to spain/italy. What happens in the next few years when there are no players coming through as all the good kids have been picked up by Cat 1 & 2 clubs at the age of 7 & 8. We cannot sign the best local talent until age 11. By this time the better academys (Chelsea Arsenal Spurs, fulham, QPR, even Barnet - Cat 2, & Brentford - Cat 2) will have snapped them up. Even Luton applied for Cat 2 but I think they will get Cat 3, the same as us.

I feel for the young kids there now, especially the recently signed U9's for the new season. What does this mean for them. Will they be instantly released as the club cannot sign U12's anymore.

This is a sad day for our football club.

Sad day for our football club.....come on everybody , hasn't the penny dropped , in two years this won't be OUR club anymore.Yes we'll have a team , may be even a successful team ..but it won't be our club !!!

Bringe wrote:
Not just money saving ... our best talent will get opportunities that most of the Premiership clubs can only dream about ... Udinese are back to back Champions League qualifiers.

Jon_mk wrote:

Bringe wrote:
There is nothing as far as I am aware that would stop Udinese or Granada scouting the 8 year olds.... Nani is no fool he would have considered every angle before such a drastic move.

On what basis can you conclude that Nani would have considered every angle? He certainly didn't with the Tevez saga while at West Ham.

That said, this seems to me like a money saving exercise and I guess comes down to economics rather than football. The club obviously feel the outlay required for cat 1 or 2 status is unlikely to be exceeded by any income they can derive from developing these additional players. I hope they are right.

ElGingerino wrote:

Bringe wrote:
Not just money saving ... our best talent will get opportunities that most of the Premiership clubs can only dream about ... Udinese are back to back Champions League qualifiers.

How does that benefit Watford FC?, I know it benefits the Pozzo project.

Bringe wrote:

ElGingerino wrote:

Bringe wrote:
Not just money saving ... our best talent will get opportunities that most of the Premiership clubs can only dream about ... Udinese are back to back Champions League qualifiers.

How does that benefit Watford FC?, I know it benefits the Pozzo project.

Watford are part of the Pozzo project, get used to it.
Of course we could always go into admin if you prefer!

Bringe wrote:

ElGingerino wrote:

Bringe wrote:
Not just money saving ... our best talent will get opportunities that most of the Premiership clubs can only dream about ... Udinese are back to back Champions League qualifiers.

How does that benefit Watford FC?, I know it benefits the Pozzo project.

Watford are part of the Pozzo project, get used to it.
Of course we could always go into admin if you prefer!

Casterbridge wrote:
The club may not be able to sign them up but surely, as a school, the Academy can educate any youngster who is offered a place?

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Bringe wrote:
To make a Cat 1 pay we'd need to produce an Ashley Young every other season and that is not going to happen while we are in the Championship.

There is no talk of closing the thing

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

You've lost me. Are you saying we are protected because we'll give our best to Undinese?

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

You've lost me. Are you saying we are protected because we'll give our best to Undinese?

Would you prefer to give them to Spurs or Chelsea for £50k and not have the chance to sign them when they turn professional?

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

You've lost me. Are you saying we are protected because we'll give our best to Undinese?

Would you prefer to give them to Spurs or Chelsea for £50k and not have the chance to sign them when they turn professional?

Bringe wrote:
Correction "Would you prefer to be forced to give them to Spurs or Chelsea".
And probably for a lot less even with Cat 1.

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

You've lost me. Are you saying we are protected because we'll give our best to Undinese?

Would you prefer to give them to Spurs or Chelsea for £50k and not have the chance to sign them when they turn professional?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. It seems to me half the reason the Pozzo family have bought us is to spread out their huge playing squad. I can't see them wanting to take our youngsters or parents wanting them going over there anyway. I just don't see how they are protected? Maybe cat 1 is too expensive but surley cat 2 would have been better?

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:

smeg wrote:

Bringe wrote:
When it happens just wait for the screams when Man U, Liverpool etc. start raiding other premiership academies on the cheap and be grateful that they can't touch our best prospects.

We are better off out of it.

What makes you think they can't take our prospects? We're still under the same rules!

Because the very best ... the one's that the others really want will be scouted and signed by a European club that hasn't signed up to the EPPP licence to be bullied. Where these kids actually learn their footie is a different matter but there are youth loans etc. that come into play.

You've lost me. Are you saying we are protected because we'll give our best to Undinese?

Would you prefer to give them to Spurs or Chelsea for £50k and not have the chance to sign them when they turn professional?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. It seems to me half the reason the Pozzo family have bought us is to spread out their huge playing squad. I can't see them wanting to take our youngsters or parents wanting them going over there anyway. I just don't see how they are protected? Maybe cat 1 is too expensive but surley cat 2 would have been better?

Arsenal, Real, Barca ... they all sign kids without dragging them around Europe till they are old enough, it does not mean they get no coaching in the meantime. Stop playing dumb, if local players training with us happen to be on Udinese's books they can't be touched under the EPPP scheme.

ElGingerino wrote:

Bringe wrote:
Correction "Would you prefer to be forced to give them to Spurs or Chelsea".
And probably for a lot less even with Cat 1.

You are right, I would prefer to give them to our parent club for nothing because we owe them for the very existence of our club, for that we deserve to be an empty shell relying on the cast offs, nearly theres and general detritus of the Pozzo's project.

ElGingerino wrote:
So we are bypassing that like we are going to abuse the loan system, classy set up.

bushey tales wrote:
'The new owners love football,' eh? Well it's good to hear that somebody (Andrew1963) on here has managed to spend some quality discussion time with them. And by the way, some season ticket holders - well, certainly this one - do not renew purely to 'watch a good first team,' they buy a season ticket to support the provision of a local football club, playing at the highest level realistically attainable. I'll brace myself for the usual abuse but would I rather see a locally-based side scrapping it out in, say, Division One than watch an entirely different Championship team every season, comprising a series of gifted but faceless young Europeans passing through........well whisper it quietly, but I think I would. And yes, I'm well aware we'd almost certainly have gone into Administration had the Pozzo's not appeared. But then after a period of intense pain we would subsequently have emerged from Administration, maybe even with identity intact. But I do acknowledge that the vast majority of season ticket holders couldn't give a toss about the club - their only concern is results.

jasonwatford wrote:
This will also mean a clear out of a lot of players.....Witchlow

.....mingoia.....etc

southernhornet wrote:
I hope I am proven over time to be wrong but the decision today is a complete and utter disgrace for Watford FC and how some of my fellow supporters on here can even try and support it has left me absolutely stunned. We were warned aboutp ducksbery and Nani and we didn't listen they are causing mayhem behind the scenes and this decision for me isthe final nail in the coffin. If only our fans were more passionate we should be protesting about this on Tuesday night but no we will just accept it and say oh well it could have been administration. According to who? A Chief Executive with absolutely zero behind him. SPIN is his game and we have large elements of our support on here falling for it. Mark my words. This is bad news and these are bad news, very very bad news

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:
Seems we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

We either pay £2m+ a year to stay cat 1, continue to attract quality local talent, but risk losing our stars for peanuts to other cat 1 clubs as they develop, or

Drop to cat 3, save money but lose all the best

Andrew1963 wrote:
The last true great locally based side was probably the Celtic European cup winners. I think they had 9 players born within 5 miles of the stadium.Watford in the last 50+years has never had a team with that number of local players. My first season ticket year was 1976, still my favourite team- Rankin (Everton), Garner (from Luton), Jenkins (Crystal Palce), Joslyn (Aldershot?). Graham Taylor changed the side every year, he did not favour local players, he was as motivated to win matches as the crowd was to watch winning sides, and he gathered together the best players the owner could afford. He certainly did not favour local talent if they were not upto it. In his first year shipping in Ellis, Booth, Bolton, Pollard, Harrison, etc All good fourth division professionals - Even after succes he bought rather than developed local players - Poskett in because he did not think Jenkins or Blisset (local if you count NW10 as Watford) were upto it. Every year the team evolved. The current academy costs the money from 11,000 Season Ticket sales, so where do the first team wages come from? The new owners must love football they own three professional clubs, they are not doing it for the money. They could earn a better return by sticking their money into just about anything else. Not sure what the Watford identity is that would survive administration - No ground in Watford with the Health Campus developers looking for every bit of land they can grab, certainly no academy.The name might be similar to the one we have now, the sense of history, probably the colours that we have had for nearly half of our existance .But no club has come out of administration without a buyer - who may have a very different vision to the one we have now - or maybe not. But not all clubs exit administration some fold. I know most season ticket holders are interested in results, thats why the numbers went up when we first got promoted to the old first division, and two years later fell back agani. Upwith a winning team and down when we are not. But that's competitive professional sport for you. Football clubs survive because someone is prepared to subsidise all the people who want to see the provision of a local football club in their locality.

Chris the Vic wrote:
Over the last year I was supportive to Bas and Dyche and unlike some I am wary of what the Pozzos and Zola and Co bring to the club. This does not mean in any way I am anti WFC. However this decision is sound and I congratulate our management for making it. When the premier league was set up it was there to make money for the members and develop a strong structure for England. In reality it has made the clubs loads but not helped develop a winning national side. foreign footballers are everywhere and young english players do not play enough to develop well unless they are out on loan at lower divisions. Ben Foster and Adam J epitomise this from playing brilliantly for WFC they went back and were benched. So then the greedy Premier League turn to our academies and for a few extra quid up front they demand access to our young players so they can buy the likes of Young, Bale, Walcott, Ramsey etc cheaper and earlier. Then they will lend them out, we will develop them cheaply and hand them back.Instead of £9.6m for Ashley think well under a £1m. To opt out of this system and to develop English youth for WFC through our associate clubs like Udinese and Grenada could well be the way forward. As for the doubters,on saturday we started with Almunia/Dickinson/Ta ylor/Nosworthy/Hogg/ Vydra/Eustace/Yeates /Abdi/Garner all products from outside WFC. OK Lloyd was an academy product but will he even start when all the new signings are fit and available. Over the years we have watched several good academy players make it but many moved on without making the grade and given our apparent financial state this has to be a financially sound decision which is mitigated by our foreign connections. The bottom line is we want the club to succeed and we want a decent ground, if decisions such as these help us to achieve our aims so be it.

bowzer wrote:
For all those complaining that downgrading to a Category 3 academy will means that we can't recruit U12s... well you're wrong the FA rule clearly states that Cat 3 clubs can recruit U9s and U12s.

We wouldn't have got Cat 1 status due to the £2m+ that would have to be invested. We can't afford that now. The only real difference between Cat 2 and Cat 3 is involvement in the Cat1/2 U21 and U18 leagues and Cat 2 investing £1M more then Cat 3.
Our U21 will go out on loan to get real experience and our U18s will play against lesser quality opponents.

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

bowzer wrote:
For all those complaining that downgrading to a Category 3 academy will means that we can't recruit U12s... well you're wrong the FA rule clearly states that Cat 3 clubs can recruit U9s and U12s.

We wouldn't have got Cat 1 status due to the £2m+ that would have to be invested. We can't afford that now. The only real difference between Cat 2 and Cat 3 is involvement in the Cat1/2 U21 and U18 leagues and Cat 2 investing £1M more then Cat 3.
Our U21 will go out on loan to get real experience and our U18s will play against lesser quality opponents.

So, in a nutshell what DO we lose by droppin from Cat 1 to Cat 3?

carpetbagging wrote:
My son plays for the academy, last season we were a good match for arsenal, Chelsea. Not sure he will want to carry on with training 3 times a week to play the likes of Crawley town?!
Also it says they cannot coach boys under the age of 11, so not sure how they will get round this?

Btw the academy emailed the boys 2hrs before going to the press!

carpetbagging wrote:
My son plays for the academy, last season we were a good match for arsenal, Chelsea. Not sure he will want to carry on with training 3 times a week to play the likes of Crawley town?!
Also it says they cannot coach boys under the age of 11, so not sure how they will get round this?

Btw the academy emailed the boys 2hrs before going to the press!

bowzer wrote:

carpetbagging wrote:
My son plays for the academy, last season we were a good match for arsenal, Chelsea. Not sure he will want to carry on with training 3 times a week to play the likes of Crawley town?!
Also it says they cannot coach boys under the age of 11, so not sure how they will get round this?

Btw the academy emailed the boys 2hrs before going to the press!

Category 3 academies can coach boys under 11.

Basically there are very few differences between the system how is was and the new system in how it affects us as a Cat 3 academy and in fact at U11 level there are no differences at all for Cat 1-3.

That is assuming that the club don't make budget cuts at the academy of course.

carpetbagging wrote:
So category 3 under 11's will still play all category teams?

Mickey Quinn, not so thin wrote:

bowzer wrote:
For all those complaining that downgrading to a Category 3 academy will means that we can't recruit U12s... well you're wrong the FA rule clearly states that Cat 3 clubs can recruit U9s and U12s.

We wouldn't have got Cat 1 status due to the £2m+ that would have to be invested. We can't afford that now. The only real difference between Cat 2 and Cat 3 is involvement in the Cat1/2 U21 and U18 leagues and Cat 2 investing £1M more then Cat 3.
Our U21 will go out on loan to get real experience and our U18s will play against lesser quality opponents.

So, in a nutshell what DO we lose by droppin from Cat 1 to Cat 3?

lockerbiehornet wrote:
Seems like a shrewd move to me, and to any posters pointing out that Barnet, Brentford and the like can sign and local, promising under 12 year old talent... What's to stop U or G signing them and they then train with U or G's sister club WFC????

Bringe wrote:

jasonwatford wrote:
This will also mean a clear out of a lot of players.....Witchlow


.....mingoia.....etc

Is that logic or just a rush of wind passing between your ears? Please explain Jason?

bowzer wrote:
I can't edit my previous post, but it seems that the other age groups of Cat 3 academies will only play Cat 3 teams, unless involved in festivals arranged by the Premier League and Football League.

That applies from U9 up to U18s (U18 also play Cat 4 teams)

So it would suggest for the time being all of the boys will play against players who, in theory, are "inferior" to the Premier league and Championship teams that they played against last season.